The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

Labour are finished until they decide who they are.

It’s like 2 separate parties in one with conflicting policies, conflicting people and a conflicting vision.

I’d love to vote Labour but for every one thing I agree with there’s two that I don’t.

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There has always been that struggle between left and right. It went quiet in Blair’s early years but Iraq changed all that and for the past 20 years the party has been a complete shambles. I’m a member at the moment but getting seriously passed off with Starmer’s lack of ooomph. He seems to be scared of his own shadow.

Labour are far too soft. They need to be far nastier. Just like the Tories are.

Is there any point continuing with the politics board given that this thread has grown to this size?

This thread goes to the heart of why the Labour party is unsuccessful electorally. Although the Conservative party is becoming more factionalised with "research groups" of stroppy ultra right wingers, they tend to fall into line when there's an important vote or an election to be won - the Conservative's are not called the most efficient election fighting body in history for nothing, they'll do anything to stay in power (for example, a furlough scheme which was socialist in principle) because the lesson that you can do nothing unless you're in power has been learned by them.

On the other hand, Labour nearly always are fighting an "enemy within" and, as I've mentioned before on here, to a large degree, they look inside their party for the people or bodies they are opposed to, not the party they should be concentrating their fire on. Look at Jeremy Corbyn - how many times did he vote against his party when they were in Government?

Thatcher started the swerve towards the right in this country . And I am afraid its not stopped .

Major was a decent enough bloke , apart from some sideways boffing but Blair , after a few good years , went potty and lurched to the tory lite figure he really was . And of course his invasion of Iraq was a criminal disgrace .

Brown was a decent man but lost the plot .

Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press .

Corbyn had some good ideas but too much baggage easily rooted out by the media and surround yourself by the likes of Abbott and you are doomed .

Brexit for me showed that there was a significant xenophobic switch in this country and many were still filled with this rule brittania nonsense , fuelled by the euro sceptic tory party .

Sadly the days of sticking together through the hard times have gone . Workers rights have gone out of the window , since Thatcher came along everything not nailed down has been sold and the marketplace is king . Its survival of the fittest . It wasn't always like that but its now down to voluntary sector things like food banks to help those in need .

People in their millions voted for the conservatives who have dismantled the welfare state . Following this dreadful virus those same millions are having to turn towards universal credit and sickness benefits . They have had a massive shock and the reality of what they have voted for is hitting home . Hopefully those people will think again next time.

My father and grandfather were socialists but the reality in 2021 is that those of us that don't vote tory need a party that has democratic left of centre values but is actually going to form a government and implement those policies that we want .

I don't think that's going to happen unless a sort of left of centre alliance is formed . The numbers do just not add up . The majority of the country do not vote tory . But enough of the country does to enable them to form a government .

From scraping through to form a coalition with the liberals under Cameron to Theresa may sucking up to the ulster unionists we now have a situation where Boris and his front bench , who are libertarian , right wing and totally incompetent, have a 80 seat majority

Anyone who thinks the soppy and ineffective starmer has any chance of overturning that needs to see a doctor.

But I don't think its about leadership . Lisa Nandy was my choice but whoever took over the baton was heading a party that in my opinion , like the liberals , is finished . Corbyn , Brexit, the selfish modern society we live in means for me those that don't vote tory need a fresh start .

It might take a few years but a left of centre democratic party involving the best brains from the Labour, Liberal and Conservative Party ........Ken Clarke, Sarah Wollaston types and the minority parties is the only way to go

I would love to see the renationalisation of water , gas , the railways , electricity , I would love to see care workers not employed on poor wages by private companies but on contracted hours , given decent pensions and working directly for the local social services department . I would love to see cleaners employed by the NHS , not private businesses .

But that isn't going to happen . Improvements MAY be made if a left of centre democratic alliance is formed . Until that does happen I will vote Labour or whatever party locally has the best chance of keeping the tories out . But until then unless we accept the Labour and Liberal parties are finished and we need to join up we are forever going to be arguing from the sidelines .

'Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press'

Sludge, I hope you aren't one of those people who think Ed's brother Spike would have been a better leader?

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Originally Posted by neilw65

I think a lot of what has been said by both Sludge and former labour leader is correct. However I would also suggest that the way some councils, and WAG itself, run things is poor.

If you look at Caerphilly council as an example, they have been shocking.

Closing leisure centres against the wishes of the people.
Going to court to fight against the wishes of the people.
Building new homes everywhere.
Former leader breaching code of conduct by not declaring interest in major investments.
The former CEO pay scandal.

Then there is the Islwyn candidate travelling to Swindon to see her boyfriend during lockdown, whilst possibly not breaking the law, it certainly breaks the spirit of the lockdown rules and undermines the WAG message.

Oh and a couple of years ago was found guilty of Drink Driving.

None of this helps labours cause and was some of the major talking points on the doorsteps during 2019 election campaign

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Shocking leadership in Caerphilly. My parents live in the county and also I used to work there

This is why people don't trust labour anymore and looking for alternatives.

Labour have become complacent and a 'jobs for the boys' club in many welsh counties because they have been there for so long.

It's disgusting.

For me Adam Price is one of the most ethical and visionary leaders in Wales and I hope that people recognise Plaid as the only alternative to Labour.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

'Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press'

Sludge, I hope you aren't one of those people who think Ed's brother Spike would have been a better leader?

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Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

And David Lammy

I feel sorry for Starmer. He's intelligent, conscientious and qualified but not particularly television friendly, which these days seems to mean an entertaining but incompetent, lying crook. We like the drama more than anything, and any talk of having a "leader" is waffle, seeing as the only definition of that seems to be posh, rich and forthright.

If we'd voted for Milliband, who didn't get in cos he was seen as weird (so there's an exception to drama rule - you have to be mainstream drama) then he would've done as good a job as Cameron (not difficult) and we'd still be in the EU. It's all presentation, and it's pathetic.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

And David Lammy

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I can't decide whether I think Jon's post was a whoosh or not. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I can't decide whether I think Jon's post was a whoosh or not. :hehe:

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

And David Lammy

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David Lammy comes across as an arsehole

The next general election is a long way away.

Starmer needs to get nastier as the pandemic ends.

Having this bunch of idiots voted in again woukd make the UK looks as bad as the US loons voting in Trump.

Like Sludge, The Labour Party has Convinced itself that working class people are right wing and Nationalistic. It's part of the Narrative now Starmer is in charge.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Like Sludge, The Labour Party has Convinced itself that working class people are right wing and Nationalistic. It's part of the Narrative now Starmer is in charge.

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Labour are filled with paternalistic "we know best types" who think the working classes are swayed by the allure of a union flag

What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html

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Originally Posted by life on mars

What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html

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Simple they do not represent the working class, have not for a long time.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

Simple they do not represent the working class, have not for a long time.

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And the Conservatives do?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html

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Brexit and the full frontal assault from the media on their leader for 4 years most likely :shrug:

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Originally Posted by City123

Labour are filled with paternalistic "we know best types" who think the working classes are swayed by the allure of a union flag

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Absolutely. Lisa Nandy is one of the worst. Every interview she does is an attack on the Tories for not being Hard enough on Russian interference and the supposed trade war with china, also ramping up the notion that China is spying on the UK. Saying that the Tories haven't been hard enough on Shamima Begum, talking about national security like it's an imminent threat and slagging of Corbyn for not joining in with National threats towards russia. She really is a shit bag, even her own father described her as right wing. This is the line Labour are taking, unfortunately. Purposely aimed at a certain section of people.

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Originally Posted by City123

And the Conservatives do?

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No they do not, but my theory ( all be it a poor one) is that at least people know what they are getting with the torries, where as Labour tend to come across as very sanctimonious and it does not sit well with people, it makes them very unlikeable, where as it is easier to accept a knob when they do not pretend to be anything but.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

No they do not, but my theory ( all be it a poor one) is that at least people know what they are getting with the torries, where as Labour tend to come across as very sanctimonious and it does not sit well with people, it makes them very unlikeable, where as it is easier to accept a knob when they do not pretend to be anything but.

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So many Conservatives seem to think they've got to diss the party they vote for - is it a way of making them feel better about themselves?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So many Conservatives seem to think they've got to diss the party they vote for - is it a way of making them feel better about themselves?

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Probably!

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Originally Posted by City123

Brexit and the full frontal assault from the media on their leader for 4 years most likely :shrug:

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And by his own Party-Twice. This country is getting incredibly right wing. I don't know what the answer is. The media ridicule real Left Wing politicians, their own party members do the same. This is just Left Wing mind, we're not talking about Trotskyists. Blair was more Tory than the Tories, he effectively nicked the tories knickers.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

And by his own Party-Twice. This country is getting incredibly right wing. I don't know what the answer is. The media ridicule real Left Wing politicians, their own party members do the same. This is just Left Wing mind, we're not talking about Trotskyists. Blair was more Tory than the Tories, he effectively nicked the tories knickers.

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This isn’t just aimed at you, but the Labour/left wing posters in this thread sound like they see the opposite side in the party as the enemy, not the party that have been in power since 2010 - it’s no wonder Labour have lost the last four elections.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Like Sludge, The Labour Party has Convinced itself that working class people are right wing and Nationalistic. It's part of the Narrative now Starmer is in charge.

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Well clearly that is cobblers but there is an increasing element of the working class that are right wing and nationalistic

What else would explain the huge swing away from Labour to the tories in former solid Labour seats ?

Working class people have tended to vote Labour in the past but there have always been working class conservatives

Wether its Europe , antagonism towards Eastern European workers or the failure of Labour to get its act together and represent the working class something has changed

I mean Bolsover , a former rock solid Labour seat in mining country shifts to Conservative?

That says to me Labour has had it

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

This isn’t just aimed at you, but the Labour/left wing posters in this thread sound like they see the opposite side in the party as the enemy, not the party that have been in power since 2010 - it’s no wonder Labour have lost the last four elections.

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The Party is over

If you pardon the expression

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

This isn’t just aimed at you, but the Labour/left wing posters in this thread sound like they see the opposite side in the party as the enemy, not the party that have been in power since 2010 - it’s no wonder Labour have lost the last four elections.

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This isn't aimed at you, but plenty of centrist/right labour voters see the labour left as the enemy, you make it sound like it's us who are the aggressors. It most certainly is the other way round. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

This isn't aimed at you, but plenty of centrist/right labour voters see the labour left as the enemy, you make it sound like it's us who are the aggressors. It most certainly is the other way round. :thumbup:

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I’m not saying that, it’s the same on both sides. What I would say about the Labour left though is that it looks sometimes as if they’re happier to be on the outside looking in when it comes to governing the country.

I’m not arguing for one side or the other, I’d just like to see the party doing less fighting amongst itself and give the country a realistic alternative to what I believe is a mediocre crop of Conservative politicians who probably cannot believe their luck that the official opposition is doing so little opposing.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I’m not saying that, it’s the same on both sides. What I would say about the Labour left though is that it looks sometimes as if they’re happier to be on the outside looking in when it comes to governing the country.

I’m not arguing for one side or the other, I’d just like to see the party doing less fighting amongst itself and give the country a realistic alternative to what I believe is a mediocre crop of Conservative politicians who probably cannot believe their luck that the official opposition is doing so little opposing.

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Get into power and do something

Or just shout from the sidelines

This country will never elect a left wing government

Left of centre is the best us lefties can hope for

And the state of the Labour Party means its further away than ever

The end is nigh

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I’m not saying that, it’s the same on both sides. What I would say about the Labour left though is that it looks sometimes as if they’re happier to be on the outside looking in when it comes to governing the country.

I’m not arguing for one side or the other, I’d just like to see the party doing less fighting amongst itself and give the country a realistic alternative to what I believe is a mediocre crop of Conservative politicians who probably cannot believe their luck that the official opposition is doing so little opposing.

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Fair enough, but it seems that it's always those with left wing politics who have to make the concessions. Talked about scornfully, like being left wing is some kind of fairy tale journey towards utopia, and it doesn't exist in the big bad and ugly 'real world' I'm not even hard left, yet my political beliefs are almost patronised. Look at sludge, a defender of those who are vulnerable, the least fortunate in society, Tory cuts are responsible for a hell of a lot of the problems he attempts to bring focus on, yet he's calling for the formation of a party that would do exactly that. This is why the Labour party is ****ed and there is no real left wing alternative. Maybe people should get involved, instead of attempting to dilute even further any left wing opposition.

I’ve never seen so many labour voters not wanting to vote labour and tories not wanting to vote Tory.

I wonder if Plaid wasn’t so strong on independence (or at least lied about it like the rest of the politicians) would they romp home in May?

Interesting read on the Senedd's history


https://www.thenational.wales/news/1...tory/?ref=ebln

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I can't decide whether I think Jon's post was a whoosh or not. :hehe:

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I think he meant Glenn Miller Band.

Very recently I have reflected on the past few years and realised that I don't share values with the average British person, I guess the decision at that point is to either live in the country they create or move somewhere else more suitable.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think a left of centre party would lead this country into a better place than Boris and his crew of libertarians

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Libertarian implies they believe in something. Take a read of the pcsc bill and tell me how a Libertarian would stomach that.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

Simple they do not represent the working class, have not for a long time.

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I think that the label 'working class' is less easily defined and less meaningful than in the past though (when there were clearer demarkations between people in different socio-economic groups.)
I think that many people of my generation who were raised in a working class environment and left education even at sixteen are enjoying a lifestyle that was previously associated with the middle class.
For my part, I'm not a great fan of shoe-horning human beings into distinct categories (when a spectrum describes the situation better).
It's interesting and probably germane that American politicians do their best to appeal to the US version of the 'middle class', which seems to be more akin to the average Joe economically-speaking rather than the traditional British version of the middle class.
And it seems to be the middle ground voter without a deep and historical link with either party decides British elections.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

No they do not, but my theory ( all be it a poor one) is that at least people know what they are getting with the torries, where as Labour tend to come across as very sanctimonious and it does not sit well with people, it makes them very unlikeable, where as it is easier to accept a knob when they do not pretend to be anything but.

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Your reading of this explains what has happened in England, I think traditional Northern and Midlands working class voters and felt Labour had become inner-city type party and moved the UKIP ,Brexit and now Tories .

This is from This Week article :( interestingly Labour are now reported as popular in high incomes as it was in low income earners )



When Boris Johnson demolished the Red Wall at last year’s election, it was clear that the usual political rules had been upended.

Six months after the Conservatives*built a big majority*from formerly safe Labour seats, a new analysis from the*Joseph Rowntree Foundation*reveals just how much has changed.

“The Conservatives are now more popular among people on low incomes than they are among people on high incomes,” says the social policy think-tank.

Meanwhile, Labour is “just as popular among the wealthy as it is among those on low incomes”, the report continues. “Both parties have inverted their traditional support base.”