It's Just Not Cricket - Howzat

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

Hoggard apologised to Rafiq for what he said and how it made him feel. If it wasn't racist or derogatory what was it, and what did Hoggard apologise for?

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Lloyd apologised for comment[s] he made about the asian cricket community in general, not Rafiq. Re. Hoggard, that was a private phone call between him and Rafiq. To the best of my knowledge Hoggard hasn't made any comment publicly.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Lloyd apologised for comment[s] he made about the asian cricket community in general, not Rafiq. Re. Hoggard, that was a private phone call between him and Rafiq. To the best of my knowledge Hoggard hasn't made any comment publicly.

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Lloyd made some comment about Rafiq’s drinking as I understand it. Why have so many at Yorkshire felt they had to resign if there was nothing to Rafiq’s allegations? Today’s news reflects poorly on Rafiq, but it doesn’t mean he made what he said on Tuesday up.

Bloody hell cricket really does have a big, big problem.

This has muddied the water somewhat. I stand by the fact that the word banter is used as an excuse and it's likely to be a big problem throughout the men's game. Cricket has not come out of this well. The Guardian article cited earlier makes the very valid point that all of this dirty washing needs to be made public and everyone owns their mistakes (like SA is doing).

It seems to me that the game needs a kick into the 21st century and I've felt this for a while now. The laddish, cricketer behaviour seems stuck in the past and makes football look good. I haven't liked the England side or setup for a long time and hate the old colonial feel to it. I even hate the fact Wales is tagged on but unrepresented (Scotland made that situation look even more stupid during the T20s recently).

This was a very public and widespread testimony by Rafiq and he's made himself and his supporters (of which I am one) look a tad foolish. He should rightly feel very sheepish.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And David Lloyd

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And Gary Ballance.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Lloyd made some comment about Rafiq’s drinking as I understand it. Why have so many at Yorkshire felt they had to resign if there was nothing to Rafiq’s allegations? Today’s news reflects poorly on Rafiq, but it doesn’t mean he made what he said on Tuesday up.

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I said I didn't doubt he had been subjected to racism/derogatory comments, I was making the point that a number of people have been accused of stuff without any chance to defend themselves. Joe Root denied knowing of anything happening but Rafiq was smart enough to paint him out to be a liar. Rafiq called Lloyd 'a closet racist' - that's his opinion, it doesn't mean Lloyd is a closet racist, but it will stick, no doubt. Another asian Yorkshire player [can't recall his name], has stated he wasn't aware of any racism at the club, but Rafiq hasn't called him out..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I said I didn't doubt he had been subjected to racism/derogatory comments, I was making the point that a number of people have been accused of stuff without any chance to defend themselves. Joe Root denied knowing of anything happening but Rafiq was smart enough to paint him out to be a liar. Rafiq called Lloyd 'a closet racist' - that's his opinion, it doesn't mean Lloyd is a closet racist, but it will stick, no doubt. Another asian Yorkshire player [can't recall his name], has stated he wasn't aware of any racism at the club, but Rafiq hasn't called him out..

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You are right ,I think the accused should have thier day in front of the same committee to enable a full picture of how the remarks were made ie in drunken moments,
joint banter from each side and describe the environment the remarks were made , it doesn't make the remarks right in fact they are poor , its just needs a full known context of the complete situation it took place in as a learning moment for others who may fall into tge same poor banter .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

You are right ,I think the accused should have thier day in front of the same committee to enable a full picture of how the remarks were made ie in drunken moments,
joint banter from each side and describe the environment the remarks were made , it doesn't make the remarks right in fact they are poor , its just needs a full known context of the complete situation it took place in as a learning moment for others who may fall into tge same poor banter .

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We're in the position we are because Yorkshire CCC failed to do exactly this in the first place.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I said I didn't doubt he had been subjected to racism/derogatory comments, I was making the point that a number of people have been accused of stuff without any chance to defend themselves. Joe Root denied knowing of anything happening but Rafiq was smart enough to paint him out to be a liar. Rafiq called Lloyd 'a closet racist' - that's his opinion, it doesn't mean Lloyd is a closet racist, but it will stick, no doubt. Another asian Yorkshire player [can't recall his name], has stated he wasn't aware of any racism at the club, but Rafiq hasn't called him out..

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I watched Rafiq’s testimony on Tuesday and, off the top of my head, the only people he made accusations against who haven’t made some sort of comment on the matter are Martyn Moxon the former England batsman who has been a coach for years at Durham and Yorkshire and is currently off work suffering from stress and Andrew Gale the current Yorkshire coach who was suspended by the county as a result of an anti Semitic tweet he made ten years ago. David Lloyd has apologised for comments about Rafiq in particular and Asian cricketers in general, that will be more than enough for many to think, rightly or wrongly, that he’s a racist without having to take what Rafiq thinks into account. Ajmal Shahzad was the fourth of the players of Asian descent that Michael Vaughans “too many of you” comments we’re supposed to have been directed at, he denies hearing them and has said he did not experience racism at Yorkshire, but the fact remains that there have been multiple resignations at the county in the last couple of weeks, so there’s clearly a problem there.

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

We're in the position we are because Yorkshire CCC failed to do exactly this in the first place.

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This is something I feel some people are failing to grasp.

Turns out Rafiq’s an hypocrite?..:shrug:

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Originally Posted by stan butler

Turns out Rafiq’s an hypocrite?..:shrug:

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Hypocrite is being kind I would say.

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Originally Posted by willo1927

Hypocrite is being kind I would say.

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I was thinking of calling him an Utter C**t to be honest but toned it down. :thumbup:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...afiq-yorkshire

Facking snowflakes mun.
Ponses everywhere.

20 years of working away on English building sites and being called taff or sheep sh ag ger, cmon mun.
Bring that stuff on mun

Calling hard to pronounce names "steve" cmon.
Poofter this guy is

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Originally Posted by nugent

Facking snowflakes mun.
Ponses everywhere.

20 years of working away on English building sites and being called taff or sheep sh ag ger, cmon mun.
Bring that stuff on mun

Calling hard to pronounce names "steve" cmon.
Poofter this guy is

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Would you go up to a black guy , sub contracted on site to do some groundwork and say ....hey ngggr pass me the spade .....in a jokey sort of way .......and if he went for you say hey I am a taff , people call me sheepshagger ......I was only joking ......as he batters you ?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...afiq-yorkshire

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I have always thought aggers was a plum in the mouth type and to say that a person who is a victim of racism in the workplace .......shouldn't go back for more ......in incredibly stupid

It's obvious that this is a culture of institutional and societal racism

The person who has raised it himself clearly is guilty of anti semitic language so is a hypocrite but that doesn't mean he has not been on the end of racist abuse and if he wasn't the one complaining then I bet someone else was racially abused and didn't speak out .

His previous behaviour doesn't mean that those abusing him get a free ticket

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I watched Rafiq’s testimony on Tuesday and, off the top of my head, the only people he made accusations against who haven’t made some sort of comment on the matter are Martyn Moxon the former England batsman who has been a coach for years at Durham and Yorkshire and is currently off work suffering from stress and Andrew Gale the current Yorkshire coach who was suspended by the county as a result of an anti Semitic tweet he made ten years ago. David Lloyd has apologised for comments about Rafiq in particular and Asian cricketers in general, that will be more than enough for many to think, rightly or wrongly, that he’s a racist without having to take what Rafiq thinks into account. Ajmal Shahzad was the fourth of the players of Asian descent that Michael Vaughans “too many of you” comments we’re supposed to have been directed at, he denies hearing them and has said he did not experience racism at Yorkshire, but the fact remains that there have been multiple resignations at the county in the last couple of weeks, so there’s clearly a problem there.

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I don't doubt there's been racist language thrown about at the club. What irks me is that in common with so much nowadays, individuals, [governments too], can make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims without challenge or scrutiny. Heaven knows, we had it for nearly 2 years. Re. resignations, it's no the old-style 'falling on one's sword' scenario, an admission of guilt etc., but more PR, concerned about losing sponsorship, and generally getting of the firing range. Was the 'too many of you" comment racist ? We don't know the context. Was he really told to 'go and sit by the toilets' ? I think after the anti-semetic/racist comments from him, it's hard to know when he's telling the truth or otherwise. He's a racist - or ex-racist, who's calling out racism. That much is a fact.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I don't doubt there's been racist language thrown about at the club. What irks me is that in common with so much nowadays, individuals, [governments too], can make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims without challenge or scrutiny. Heaven knows, we had it for nearly 2 years. Re. resignations, it's no the old-style 'falling on one's sword' scenario, an admission of guilt etc., but more PR, concerned about losing sponsorship, and generally getting of the firing range. Was the 'too many of you" comment racist ? We don't know the context. Was he really told to 'go and sit by the toilets' ? I think after the anti-semetic/racist comments from him, it's hard to know when he's telling the truth or otherwise. He's a racist - or ex-racist, who's calling out racism. That much is a fact.

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Let me understand this.

You want to know the context of the comments of being called a p*** , elephant washer , too many of you , sit by the toilet etc etc as it may not have benn racist.

But having seen Rafiqs tweets youve decided he was or is a racist.?

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Let me understand this.

You want to know the context of the comments of being called a p*** , elephant washer , too many of you , sit by the toilet etc etc as it may not have benn racist.

But having seen Rafiqs tweets youve decided he was or is a racist.?

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:thumbup:

Also like to know why Rafiq is a racist or was a racist fact.

While earlier refutes David Lloyd is. ???

Compare Rafiqs tweets and Lloyd's comments about the Asian Community. Love to know why Monkfish thinks its a fact Rafiq is or was a racist but Lloyd isnt?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I don't doubt there's been racist language thrown about at the club. What irks me is that in common with so much nowadays, individuals, [governments too], can make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims without challenge or scrutiny. Heaven knows, we had it for nearly 2 years. Re. resignations, it's no the old-style 'falling on one's sword' scenario, an admission of guilt etc., but more PR, concerned about losing sponsorship, and generally getting of the firing range. Was the 'too many of you" comment racist ? We don't know the context. Was he really told to 'go and sit by the toilets' ? I think after the anti-semetic/racist comments from him, it's hard to know when he's telling the truth or otherwise. He's a racist - or ex-racist, who's calling out racism. That much is a fact.

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What is it you want? It makes no sense for anyone to argue the way you are unless there's another reason. What is it? I'm disappointed that Rafiq made the remarks he did. So is he. Do you ever make mistakes? Are you never guilty of hypocrisy? I know I am and when I realise it I try to fix it or remedy it.

By your reasoning a reformed criminal will always be criminal and can never be trusted based on something they did. This isn't a religious thing when I say, without forgiveness we can never move on. He's apologised. It's pretty clear to most reasonable people that he's deeply embarrassed himself. To me, that's enough. It doesn't negate anything that's happened to him. It doesn't let anyone else off the hook and it doesn't make Rafiq a liar. It just makes him human and flawed, like the rest of us, including you.

Even Rafiq, after everything he was put through, endorsed forgiveness (on R4). This was before the recent historic remarks.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...rs-ago-3464984

Azeem Rafiq accused of sending 'creepy' messages to teenage girl six years ago

FFS. He's going to be character-assissinated. Which means all the other stuff will be dismissed. Another bloody mess. I give up.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

FFS. He's going to be character-assissinated. Which means all the other stuff will be dismissed. Another bloody mess. I give up.

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People in glass houses

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Originally Posted by stan butler

People in glass houses

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So are you saying people can’t ever complain about anything unless they’re completely squeaky clean themselves?

Are you saying If someone says something racist once they can’t complain about systematic racism targeting them in the workplace?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Would you go up to a black guy , sub contracted on site to do some groundwork and say ....hey ngggr pass me the spade .....in a jokey sort of way .......and if he went for you say hey I am a taff , people call me sheepshagger ......I was only joking ......as he batters you ?

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That's not my analogy tho was it you berk

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

So are you saying people can’t ever complain about anything unless they’re completely squeaky clean themselves?

Are you saying If someone says something racist once they can’t complain about systematic racism targeting them in the workplace?

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Racist reporting a racist..

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Originally Posted by nugent

That's not my analogy tho was it you berk

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Yes it was

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Originally Posted by stan butler

Racist reporting a racist..

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2 questions:

Is someone who says something racist once is a racist?

Is it then ok to racially abuse them over a period of time?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

2 questions:

Is someone who says something racist once is a racist?

Is it then ok to racially abuse them over a period of time?

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If someone shouts N****R or P**i at a player once during a game would that make them a racist or not?
Plus i'm not saying it's ok to for anyone to be abused racially or in any other way in fact but don't play the innocent victim when you have dished it out previously. :thumbup:
That's it from me i don't even have any interest in this thread or cricket :hehe:

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Originally Posted by stan butler

If someone shouts N****R or P**i at a player once during a game would that make them a racist or not?
Plus i'm not saying it's ok to for anyone to be abused racially or in any other way in fact but don't play the innocent victim when you have dished it out previously. :thumbup:
That's it from me i don't even have any interest in this thread or cricket :hehe:

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But he isn’t playing the victim, he has been the actual victim.

I don’t understand how doing something wrong himself charges that or means it’s ok.

That’s it from you because the actual logic of the situation means you have to think about your opinion and maybe change it but that would mean admitting you might be wrong.