There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.

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Surely you can see that The Guardian may not be everyone's cup of tea ....I find it a bore festival ....but its a fair left leaning but certainly not socialist paper

The Daily Mail ?

Come on ff sake , it's off the scale , alongside The Sun , with its right leaning stance


The UK press is strangled by the right wing

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.

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I've said to you before that if you didn't display such sanctimony and smugness with this insistence that you are balanced I'd have (and I'm sure others would) have greater respect and enjoy debating with you. But jeez it drives me insane.

And I know you're full of sh*t when you say you'll listen to the Osmonds in equal measure. Nobody would do that :hehe:

Lunch was vegan, fair-trade and delicious btw.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I've said to you before that if you didn't display such sanctimony and smugness with this insistence that you are balanced I'd have (and I'm sure others would) have greater respect and enjoy debating with you. But jeez it drives me insane.

And I know you're full of sh*t when you say you'll listen to the Osmonds in equal measure. Nobody would do that :hehe:

Lunch was vegan, fair-trade and delicious btw.

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But you are anything but balanced. Most of the stuff you write is solidly left-wing. So criticising them is only going to be in one direction, in much the same way that a centrist person will always criticise someone like Jeremy Corbyn from only one direction.

If it drives you insane, then stop writing such extreme stuff. In this thread alone, you have mentioned Stormfront, and suggested people who like the article should hang out with them. Then you've labelled the article racist and said it was a white guy who wrote it for white guys.

That's inflammatory stuff, and it's right that people pull you up on it. If you don't like it, then don't write such unhinged guff in the first place. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Personally I'll glance at all articles on my feed microsoft edge, which will be all papers, sky sports, BBC, all sorts mostly open sport, theres good and bad in all, but I like to have an open mind.

I don't agree with everyones point of view but i'll often read them and form my own opinion, which isn't as black and white as most peoples these days.

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I used to use these aggregate newsfeeds but there were just too many hideous pieces from writers and publications I had little respect for so I stopped. Apple News I switched off and if your using Microsoft Edge, I'm not kidding, it's like falling down the rabbit-hole.

I went for the jugular earlier and for that I apologise. In my defence I was left unsupervised without coffee.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But you are anything but balanced. Most of the stuff you write is solidly left-wing. So criticising them is only going to be in one direction, in much the same way that a centrist person will always criticise someone like Jeremy Corbyn from only one direction.

If it drives you insane, then stop writing such extreme stuff. In this thread alone, you have mentioned Stormfront, and suggested people who like the article should hang out with them. Then you've labelled the article racist and said it was a white guy who wrote it for white guys.

That's inflammatory stuff, and it's right that people pull you up on it. If you don't like it, then don't write such unhinged guff in the first place. :thumbup:

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You make this great thing about being balanced, but I can honestly say that I could comfortably count the number of times I’ve been surprised by a political opinion of yours on the fingers of one hand - you’re exactly the same as many of us on here in that your political opinions aren’t balanced they’re predictable.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But you are anything but balanced. Most of the stuff you write is solidly left-wing. So criticising them is only going to be in one direction, in much the same way that a centrist person will always criticise someone like Jeremy Corbyn from only one direction.

If it drives you insane, then stop writing such extreme stuff. In this thread alone, you have mentioned Stormfront, and suggested people who like the article should hang out with them. Then you've labelled the article racist and said it was a white guy who wrote it for white guys.

That's inflammatory stuff, and it's right that people pull you up on it. If you don't like it, then don't write such unhinged guff in the first place. :thumbup:

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It's meant to be inflammatory. Someone has to point this stuff out as we're up against extreme right wing bias, and yeah, it's written by a white guy for white guys. I regard your stance as extreme too (you'll be aghast at that I'm sure). There you go again, calling my posts unhinged guff. That's not debate and you know it, it's a superior attitude and shows you have the inability to demonstrate any humility when someone is actually engaging with you. It's lecturing - talking down to people. As I said before, sanctimonious. It's a shame.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You make this great thing about being balanced, but I can honestly say that I could comfortably count the number of times I’ve been surprised by a political opinion of yours on the fingers of one hand - you’re exactly the same as many of us on here in that your political opinions aren’t balanced they’re predictable.

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But Bob, your starting position is always one of a solid-far left position. Any attempt to row back from that towards the centre will inevitably be in one direction.

Start a topic in a balanced way and you will see me write the pro's and con's on it. Start off by ranting about the Tories and how everyone is racist when they aren't, and you'll see a push back.

You can read bmy first post on here, on page 1. Three posts in and Citizens Nephew is talking about Stormfront and how it's all racist. My response is about public services - it's far more balanced in tone and conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

It's meant to be inflammatory. Someone has to point this stuff out as we're up against extreme right wing bias, and yeah, it's written by a white guy for white guys. I regard your stance as extreme too (you'll be aghast at that I'm sure). There you go again, calling my posts unhinged guff. That's not debate and you know it, it's a superior attitude and shows you have the inability to demonstrate any humility when someone is actually engaging with you. It's lecturing - talking down to people. As I said before, sanctimonious. It's a shame.

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No, I call it guff because you offer no evidence for your opinions, whereas I will typically back mine up.

You say it's racist (if so, report it as a hate crime)
You say it's only written for white men, when the majority of the Daily Mails readership aren't white men
You say I'm extreme for objecting to you labelling anyone who agrees with the article as being aligned with Stormfront (A KKK website!)
You say I'm lecturing, but I've raised issues of public services and suggested that a balanced diet of internet news is healthy
You say you are up against extreme right wing bias, when four of the top 6 news brands in the UK are left or left of centre.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/most-popu...ws-uk-monthly/

Basically, you are just saying stuff that isn't true and you are doing it in a totally divisive and inflamatory way. If you are going to throw crap around on the internet, you should at least be able to back it up.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

If you are going to throw crap around on the internet, you should at least be able to back it up.

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Is this the kind of thing you mean?:

How do you deal with a sanctimonious person?

When confronted by them, don't give them what they want. You may agree with them, disagree with them, kind of sympathize with them- just don't show it or say anything. Let your silence and inaction speak for itself. Because whether or not you agree or disagree, your reaction props them up, validates them.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But Bob, your starting position is always one of a solid-far left position. Any attempt to row back from that towards the centre will inevitably be in one direction.

Start a topic in a balanced way and you will see me write the pro's and con's on it. Start off by ranting about the Tories and how everyone is racist when they aren't, and you'll see a push back.

You can read bmy first post on here, on page 1. Three posts in and Citizens Nephew is talking about Stormfront and how it's all racist. My response is about public services - it's far more balanced in tone and conclusion.

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Far left? I’m not sure about that, but my point is that if you want political balance from your contributors on here, I’ll willingly admit that you’re very unlikely to get it from me. I come at things from a certain point of view and, despite your claims to the contrary, you come at them from the opposite side - you’re as one eyed as I am.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

It was because the EU never controlled our borders.

We were never in Schengen so even EU citizens had to show passports to get in. As for allowing non-EU citizens into the country, that has always been handled by the UK. The only difference is that EU citizens don't have the right to work here, neither do we have the automatic right to work in Europe.

Taking back control of our borders was another Brexit lie that lots stupidly believed.

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Even though EU citizens had to show their passports they were allowed in under the free movement rules.
Yes, you are right that non-EU migration was always controlled by the UK, after all Priti Patel and her predecessors were for ever telling us they were going to reduce immigration, implying it was in their control. They just never did and then started peddling lies about the benefits Brexit

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Originally Posted by RichardM

Even though EU citizens had to show their passports they were allowed in under the free movement rules.
Yes, you are right that non-EU migration was always controlled by the UK, after all Priti Patel and her predecessors were for ever telling us they were going to reduce immigration, implying it was in their control. They just never did and then started peddling lies about the benefits Brexit

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Pre-Brexit the UK had a net immigration target of +100k per annum and the governments immediately post Brexit reaffirmed it. It was never realistic but very useful each year it was broken. Quietly discarded since but I guess it served its purpose.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I used to use these aggregate newsfeeds but there were just too many hideous pieces from writers and publications I had little respect for so I stopped. Apple News I switched off and if your using Microsoft Edge, I'm not kidding, it's like falling down the rabbit-hole.

I went for the jugular earlier and for that I apologise. In my defence I was left unsupervised without coffee.

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No problem reply how you like :thumbup:

I use edge just for news feed, half hour in the morning really just to see whats happening in sport and whatever else comes up.

I'm not a socialist so i'll read from the guardian to the daily mail, I don't get upset if someone writes something that I disagree with, I understand that the country is divided and most people on here will have a paddy if you link something from a paper they don't like.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Pre-Brexit the UK had a net immigration target of +100k per annum and the governments immediately post Brexit reaffirmed it. It was never realistic but very useful each year it was broken. Quietly discarded since but I guess it served its purpose.

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That was a project of Theresa May’s if I remember rightly.

Spare a thought for Poland then, 4.4m refugees so far, still coming at the rate of 25 k per day. My local city, population 650k has 110k Ukrainian refugees, 15% growth in 4 months. My team have roughly 70 refugees between them, basically 1 each.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

That was a project of Theresa May’s if I remember rightly.

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Started with Cameron in 2010 trying to shore up his UKIP flank. Still we know how that ended.

I've just come back in from work and some of these replies are hysterical, talk about an overreaction I think some of you were crying when you replied, get a grip and grow some.
I read it and the bit that jumped out to me is “Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent.”
As someone correctly pointed out it is due to immigration but also births outstripping deaths, but regardless it explains some of the posts we’ve seen the last few weeks, like I can’t get a doctor, dentist, ambulance, looked after in A&E, a hospital bed a policeman to call after a burglary, buy a house.
We have a problem the population of the UK and many other countries is growing at a significantly faster pace than all our important service providers.
I was expecting to see a sensible discussion about this and how it can be dealt with going forward and how immigration can bring positive benefits such as targeting doctors overseas etc.
Still I suppose it does show who just have one agenda and won’t look at any article and give a measured sensible response.

No doubt I'll come back next time to 30 replies screaming it's all Boris's fault, don't let me down :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I've just come back in from work and some of these replies are hysterical, talk about an overreaction I think some of you were crying when you replied, get a grip and grow some.
I read it and the bit that jumped out to me is “Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent.”
As someone correctly pointed out it is due to immigration but also births outstripping deaths, but regardless it explains some of the posts we’ve seen the last few weeks, like I can’t get a doctor, dentist, ambulance, looked after in A&E, a hospital bed a policeman to call after a burglary, buy a house.
We have a problem the population of the UK and many other countries is growing at a significantly faster pace than all our important service providers.
I was expecting to see a sensible discussion about this and how it can be dealt with going forward and how immigration can bring positive benefits such as targeting doctors overseas etc.
Still I suppose it does show who just have one agenda and won’t look at any article and give a measured sensible response.

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......and breathe

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But Bob, your starting position is always one of a solid-far left position. Any attempt to row back from that towards the centre will inevitably be in one direction.

Start a topic in a balanced way and you will see me write the pro's and con's on it. Start off by ranting about the Tories and how everyone is racist when they aren't, and you'll see a push back.

You can read bmy first post on here, on page 1. Three posts in and Citizens Nephew is talking about Stormfront and how it's all racist. My response is about public services - it's far more balanced in tone and conclusion.

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Presenting an alternative point of view to balance a discussion does not automatically mean you’ve presented a more balanced argument. You seem to believe that former must lead to the latter in your case but, like the rest of us, you may not actually be the best person to judge.

I enjoy reading your posts as they do provoke food for thought sometimes, but claiming victory on this basis all the time isn’t really necessary and distracts from the points you make tbh.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

......and breathe

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Pre-Brexit the UK had a net immigration target of +100k per annum and the governments immediately post Brexit reaffirmed it. It was never realistic but very useful each year it was broken. Quietly discarded since but I guess it served its purpose.

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I might misremember and can't be bothered to look for evidence but I'm sure David Cameron talked about limiting immigration to 10 or 20k.

I thought I'd give that article a read to see how objective it is. I held out hope the Daily mail would offer well researched insight into why the population is growing. However, the author's agenda is clear for all to see as they go straight for the easy target for its readers. Credible alternatives have been presented in this thread that the DM won't be interested in as they don't appeal to their readers.

I like immigrants, but where are all the woman and children? They all seem to be fit young lads of fighting age.

Ah the DailyMail, the newspaper that distracts the plebs with stories aimed at engaging them about immigrants and benefits all while the rich are robbing us all.

I know it's not all old people but there seems to be a significant amount of the elderly who read this shit and can't see how much they're being made fools of.

My final words on this. It's hard to take an article in the DM seriously when the first illustrative photograph is this one:

Attachment 4974

And BTL there was this comment:

'People coming here to study is a huge compliment to our country, as well as extremely lucrative. As for others coming to work, we have labour shortages. And the jet aeroplane means that places that used to be several weeks ocean voyage away, can now be reached in hours. We cant build a high wall around England.'

It had 22 upvotes and 304 downvotes!

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Ah the DailyMail, the newspaper that distracts the plebs with stories aimed at engaging them about immigrants and benefits all while the rich are robbing us all.

I know it's not all old people but there seems to be a significant amount of the elderly who read this shit and can't see how much they're being made fools of.

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Can’t it be both?

Immigration is an issue and to brush it aside as xenophobia is as bad as the people who says it’s the route issue of everything.

What the debate needs to be is how is best to allow these migrants to contribute and how do we put the infrastructure in place

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

Can’t it be both?

Immigration is an issue and to brush it aside as xenophobia is as bad as the people who says it’s the route issue of everything.

What the debate needs to be is how is best to allow these migrants to contribute and how do we put the infrastructure in place

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Which is beautiful, and noble and reasonable. The problem is, that's not what our own government does nor the MSM. The right-wing media and our rightwing government demonises (disabled, migrants, asylum seekers, even f*cking lawyers!) so it has to be vigorously challenged until we can treat this issue maturely. It's naive to think that there isn't racism and xenophobia going on. In fact, just blanket it as discrimination.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

I like immigrants, but where are all the woman and children? They all seem to be fit young lads of fighting age.

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You like immigrants but you want to meet women and children rather than the fit young lads of fighting age. Have you thought this post through?

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Ah the DailyMail, the newspaper that distracts the plebs with stories aimed at engaging them about immigrants and benefits all while the rich are robbing us all.

I know it's not all old people but there seems to be a significant amount of the elderly who read this shit and can't see how much they're being made fools of.

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It doesn't matter where it comes from, it raises an important question, how are we going to improve services and get you in a position to buy your own house if the population keeps rising at 6.6% per year?

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It doesn't matter where it comes from, it raises an important question, how are we going to improve services and get you in a position to buy your own house if the population keeps rising at 6.6% per year?

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Let’s at least get the question right, it was 6.6% over 10 years.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I've just come back in from work and some of these replies are hysterical, talk about an overreaction I think some of you were crying when you replied, get a grip and grow some.
I read it and the bit that jumped out to me is “Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent.”
As someone correctly pointed out it is due to immigration but also births outstripping deaths, but regardless it explains some of the posts we’ve seen the last few weeks, like I can’t get a doctor, dentist, ambulance, looked after in A&E, a hospital bed a policeman to call after a burglary, buy a house.
We have a problem the population of the UK and many other countries is growing at a significantly faster pace than all our important service providers.
I was expecting to see a sensible discussion about this and how it can be dealt with going forward and how immigration can bring positive benefits such as targeting doctors overseas etc.
Still I suppose it does show who just have one agenda and won’t look at any article and give a measured sensible response.

No doubt I'll come back next time to 30 replies screaming it's all Boris's fault, don't let me down :thumbup:

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You’re calling people hysterical then suggesting it’s immigrants fault that houses are too expensive here. Bit mad that tbh

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I've just come back in from work and some of these replies are hysterical, talk about an overreaction I think some of you were crying when you replied, get a grip and grow some.
I read it and the bit that jumped out to me is “Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent.”
As someone correctly pointed out it is due to immigration but also births outstripping deaths, but regardless it explains some of the posts we’ve seen the last few weeks, like I can’t get a doctor, dentist, ambulance, looked after in A&E, a hospital bed a policeman to call after a burglary, buy a house.
We have a problem the population of the UK and many other countries is growing at a significantly faster pace than all our important service providers.
I was expecting to see a sensible discussion about this and how it can be dealt with going forward and how immigration can bring positive benefits such as targeting doctors overseas etc.
Still I suppose it does show who just have one agenda and won’t look at any article and give a measured sensible response.

No doubt I'll come back next time to 30 replies screaming it's all Boris's fault, don't let me down :thumbup:

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The reason you can’t get any of that stuff is because of under investment in public services and austerity and stories like this are then used to make people keep voting for the same people who don’t invest in them.

Well done on falling for it hook line and sinker.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

You like immigrants but you want to meet women and children rather than the fit young lads of fighting age. Have you thought this post through?

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All the videos I have seen show young men, where are all the woman and children?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

All the videos I have seen show young men, where are all the woman and children?

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What videos are you talking about?? This thread is about the people who the UK has allowed into the country over the years not asylum seekers. Try #tommy if you are looking for a kindred spirit!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

What videos are you talking about?? This thread is about the people who the UK has allowed into the country over the years not asylum seekers. Try #tommy if you are looking for a kindred spirit!

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The picture in the OP showing young men on a dinghy, plus countless other video showing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Ah the DailyMail, the newspaper that distracts the plebs with stories aimed at engaging them about immigrants and benefits all while the rich are robbing us all.

I know it's not all old people but there seems to be a significant amount of the elderly who read this shit and can't see how much they're being made fools of.

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Hurrah for the Blackshirts

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The picture in the OP showing young men on a dinghy, plus countless other video showing the same thing.

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I'll try this slowly.

The OP posted a Daily Mail opinion article saying we are still invaded by immigrants even after we left the EU.

The Daily Mail, in all innocence, posted a picture of asylum seekers in a dinghy as its first reference. Even though the opinion piece was about migrants allowed into the country before and after Brexit.

Even the Daily Mail didn't think it would sucker too many idiots by posting a picture of asylum seekers not the half million legal immigrants that the Home Office allowed into the country in the last year after we took control of our borders six years after Brexit.

They even put something under the picture saying this as a disclaimer:

The Government is very exercised about the number of asylum seekers crossing the Channel in small boats. The wonder, though, is that so much time and energy are spent debating about asylum seekers while few people have noticed the growing numbers of legal migrants that are arriving in this country

Stlll!

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Let’s at least get the question right, it was 6.6% over 10 years.

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Facts are so last year.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I'll try this slowly.

The OP posted a Daily Mail opinion article saying we are still invaded by immigrants even after we left the EU.

The Daily Mail, in all innocence, posted a picture of asylum seekers in a dinghy as its first reference. Even though the opinion piece was about migrants allowed into the country before and after Brexit.

Even the Daily Mail didn't think it would sucker too many idiots by posting a picture of asylum seekers not the half million legal immigrants that the Home Office allowed into the country in the last year after we took control of our borders six years after Brexit.

They even put something under the picture saying this as a disclaimer:

The Government is very exercised about the number of asylum seekers crossing the Channel in small boats. The wonder, though, is that so much time and energy are spent debating about asylum seekers while few people have noticed the growing numbers of legal migrants that are arriving in this country

Stlll!

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Well I'm talking about the people crossing the channel on boats.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Well I'm talking about the people crossing the channel on boats.

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There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

Try a new thread!