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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
If you hit a pedestrian:
at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.
Source:
Roadwise
It's worth bearing in mind that drivers are already speeding in 30mph zones so therefore are likely to be speeding in 20mph zones too. Not anyone on here of course, because we're all law-abiding and socially minded members of the community on CCMB.
Personally, I can't wait for smart limiters on vehicles so you won't have any choice. AI is going to be so much better at this stuff than you are. You won't even need speed cameras because of smart data logs. All this stuff is available in motorsport right now (Endurance racing & F1) and all the current bells and whistles come from team and manufacturer's innovations.
Even the
World Endurance Championship is using biofuel this season.
If you hit a pedestrian at 10mph etc etc etc when does it end? I’ve almost been involved in more crashes due to people driving slowly than I have because of people driving fast.
This Welsh Government seems to want to alienate drivers of motor vehicles to the point that it’s not practical to drive a car. Fantastic utopian idea but not practical at all.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dave St
Of course. Still painful
All the serious accidents are not on the roads that are being reduced to 20, they are slow enough already…..they haven’t got the man power to enforce it everywhere anyway but loads of people will get done and end losing points and licences. There’s already a backlog to re sit a test.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
there is also research that shows the 90% death rate at 40mph is based on an 80% death rate given by the DofT which might be exaggeration, thanks to modern car design you can find 30% survival rates at 40 , but when we are all microchiped we will know the truth
I'm struggling to follow your argument but not your maths. I think you're arguing that a 70% survival rate at being hit by 'a vehicle' is good? I think that's from the viewpoint of the driver and not the pedestrian. It's important to note that vehicles, like people, come in all shapes and sizes.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNDERHILL1927
If you hit a pedestrian at 10mph etc etc etc when does it end? I’ve almost been involved in more crashes due to people driving slowly than I have because of people driving fast.
This Welsh Government seems to want to alienate drivers of motor vehicles to the point that it’s not practical to drive a car. Fantastic utopian idea but not practical at all.
I’d say it probably ends at 20mph except on sites because the risk reduction levels won’t be worth it any more.
If they could improve public transport alienating driving a car would be a good thing.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNDERHILL1927
If you hit a pedestrian at 10mph etc etc etc when does it end? I’ve almost been involved in more crashes due to people driving slowly than I have because of people driving fast.
This Welsh Government seems to want to alienate drivers of motor vehicles to the point that it’s not practical to drive a car. Fantastic utopian idea but not practical at all.
The figures quoted clearly tell you where it ends. The faster you drive the significantly less likely that the soft organic human being hit by the large, solid, metal vehicle being driven too fast by another soft organic human encased in said large, metal, vehicle is likely to survive at 30mph as opposed to 20mph (as an example but as you see it gets worse the faster you drive above 30mph).
I walk everywhere in Cardiff, I used to cycle. Cars are by far the most dangerous things I encounter on a daily basis. Way higher than knife crime.
However, I'm not the person who's developing the driverless AI technology or the smart vehicles that will inevitably be mandatory because humans are notoriously bad at driving vehicles safely.
As for the being chipped. If you carry a smart phone, you pretty much are already.
It's funny how people are angry at the Welsh Government. As I mentioned earlier, having spent time in Amsterdam and other European cities that are removing vehicles from highly pedestrianised areas, they're a joy, and much safer to walk around.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
goats
All the serious accidents are not on the roads that are being reduced to 20, they are slow enough already…..they haven’t got the man power to enforce it everywhere anyway but loads of people will get done and end losing points and licences. There’s already a backlog to re sit a test.
They won't need the manpower to enforce it. It'll be programmed into your electric vehicle.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Road deaths and serious injuries in the UK - https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involve...20on%20average.
In 2020, 1,516 people were killed on UK roads, with 1,460 deaths recorded in Britain and 56 recorded in Northern Ireland. This was a significant decline compared with the previous five years is due in part to the lockdown measures that were imposed in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
The number of road deaths in the UK plateaued from 2012 to 2019 at around 1,850 deaths a year, or the equivalent of five a day, on average.
1,850 road deaths equates to 1 among every 36,000 UK citizens per year.
I'd bet more Britons die each year as a direct result of falling down stairs in their homes than on roads.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
As for the being chipped. If you carry a smart phone, you pretty much are already.
This is a logical fallacy, i.e. a false equivalence.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
This is a logical fallacy, i.e. a false equivalence.
Only if you're in denial.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
The figures quoted clearly tell you where it ends. The faster you drive the significantly less likely that the soft organic human being hit by the large, solid, metal vehicle being driven too fast by another soft organic human encased in said large, metal, vehicle is likely to survive at 30mph as opposed to 20mph (as an example but as you see it gets worse the faster you drive above 30mph).
I walk everywhere in Cardiff, I used to cycle. Cars are by far the most dangerous things I encounter on a daily basis. Way higher than knife crime.
However, I'm not the person who's developing the driverless AI technology or the smart vehicles that will inevitably be mandatory because humans are notoriously bad at driving vehicles safely.
As for the being chipped. If you carry a smart phone, you pretty much are already.
It's funny how people are angry at the Welsh Government. As I mentioned earlier, having spent time in Amsterdam and other European cities that are removing vehicles from highly pedestrianised areas, they're a joy, and much safer to walk around.
As usual for Wales the politicians have overcooked the recipe and blamed everything on speed= accidents. I think 20mph is unnecessary other than on certain roads such as near schools. There is plenty of data online on accidents in Wales and here are a few facts. ...Since the 1970's accident rates, both severe and minor have been markedly decreasing across all categories.
...Motorcycles and pedal cycles are proportionately the most dangerous forms of transport for accidents when adjusted for distance travelled.
....16-24 year olds proportionately the most likely to be involved in road accidents.
....There are defined high accident areas, not motorways our near schools..but for example the A470 for vehicle accidents, and Newport Road, Cardiff for pedestrian accidents ( on reflection not surprising as this is a very difficult road to cross on foot)
In my travels around the UK I rarely come across traffic calming measures, specifically speed bumps, in towns and cities. In Cardiff they are everywhere. Most towns have 20mph limits near schools with illuminated signs warning motorists, not speed bumps. Such signs have the advantage of being active only when schools are open allowing motorists free flow at other times.
In my view Wales blunderbuss 20mph approach is unwise, and unnecessary
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
The phone rings.
Mark Drakeford: Hello.
Klaus Schwab: Flakeboard, or vhatever the hell your name is, ve vant fewer motorists on the roads polluting lungs vith their stinking fossil fuels. Drop ze speed limit.
Mark Drakeford: Yes, master.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
So many grown men throwing a strop at a 10mph speed reduction. Take it to the track guys.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Only if you're in denial.
That's a strange response to a factual statement :sherlock:
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I know, what about this WFH thing I hear people talking about. Who cares about 20mph commuting then?
just said on the radio the sennedd are going to allow more to keep working from home as its easier on them for care reasons :shrug:
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
So many grown men throwing a strop at a 10mph speed reduction. Take it to the track guys.
I'm keeping my strop in reserve until they announce 0mph.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
So we've got all these figures about chances of pedestrians being killed by vehicles travelling at various speeds.
P'raps we could have a straw poll on here of how many posters have actually killed/hit someone while driving.
I've been driving for almost fifty years and have never been close to hitting someone.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cyclops
So we've got all these figures about chances of pedestrians being killed by vehicles travelling at various speeds.
P'raps we could have a straw poll on here of how many posters have actually killed/hit someone while driving.
I've been driving for almost fifty years and have never been close to hitting someone.
I don’t think that is useful statistical evidence tbh. Should we have a straw poll of how many posters have stabbed someone too? And decide based off that if knife crime is an issue or not.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
poc
just said on the radio the sennedd are going to allow more to keep working from home as its easier on them for care reasons :shrug:
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
I love that I'm a point of anger, like I've somehow caused all of this. It's really funny and flattering to think I have that much power. I'd say, that roughly translated, most people who are angry are really angry at not being able to do drive how they want, when they want and at whatever speed they want. Some are angry at the Sendedd even existing. Others are angry because it's Welsh Labour. Some are angry because it's all of these things.
I'm checking out here but I'll ask you all this question. Do you all stick rigidly to the speed limits that are currently in place?
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Breaking news: Driving through north Cardiff his morning, I found someone who was actually adhering to the 20mph limit. Doesn't happen often.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
poc
just said on the radio the sennedd are going to allow more to keep working from home as its easier on them for care reasons :shrug:
It's probably so that they can fit 96 MS's into 60 desks in the debating chamber. I'd expect my elected representatives to actually be there, not sat at home working(as I currently am 😄)
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
This isn't that difficult. Speed limit comes down to 20mph, people don't drive over 30mph. Speed limit stays at 30mph, some people drive at 35-40 mph, which is very dangerous in a City. I would say that apart from Eric, who has put over a really good argument over public transport etc, that most who are objecting to the drop in speed limit just hate any form of regulation from this Labour government, the same ones who spat out their cornflakes over some cycle lanes, and how that would be catastrophic in terms of accidents etc. ****ing chill out a bit, you've got too much time on your hands. For a walk or get a push bike, it'll calm you down a bit.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
which bus routes are driving for 5 miles through 20mph roads?
all of them will be soon enough
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I love that I'm a point of anger, like I've somehow caused all of this. It's really funny and flattering to think I have that much power. I'd say, that roughly translated, most people who are angry are really angry at not being able to do drive how they want, when they want and at whatever speed they want. Some are angry at the Sendedd even existing. Others are angry because it's Welsh Labour. Some are angry because it's all of these things.
I'm checking out here but I'll ask you all this question. Do you all stick rigidly to the speed limits that are currently in place?
Surely people can just object to a policy on the grounds without all of that? I support the senedd, I'd like it to have more powers, but on balance I don't think a blanket 20mph rule in all built up areas is a good thing. :shrug:
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I love that I'm a point of anger, like I've somehow caused all of this. It's really funny and flattering to think I have that much power. I'd say, that roughly translated, most people who are angry are really angry at not being able to do drive how they want, when they want and at whatever speed they want. Some are angry at the Sendedd even existing. Others are angry because it's Welsh Labour. Some are angry because it's all of these things.
I'm checking out here but I'll ask you all this question. Do you all stick rigidly to the speed limits that are currently in place?
I agree with what you have said throughout this thread.
My frustration with transport in South Wales, particularly when attending events in Cardiff, (I live near Use) is that public transport is shocking. There needs to be greater investment in infrastructure, and quickly, to enable safer cycling, Rail and Bus.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
The police will presumably give people a while to get used to the new speed limit, then initially start pulling people over and telling them not to speed before they start to fine people.
It's really not that hard to get used to it, and as long as they can be a bit sensible about keeping them main through roads at 30 then it will have a minimal impact on most people.
As I said earlier, I drive across North Cardiff several times a week, and it's a minor inconvenience.
If this reduction saves lives then how many lives would it have to save before it becomes worth the hassle? For me personally if it saves one kids life then of course I can cope with some journeys taking a few minutes longer.
Is there anyone who doesn't think that is worthwhile?
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
The police will presumably give people a while to get used to the new speed limit, then initially start pulling people over and telling them not to speed before they start to fine people.
It's really not that hard to get used to it, and as long as they can be a bit sensible about keeping them main through roads at 30 then it will have a minimal impact on most people.
As I said earlier, I drive across North Cardiff several times a week, and it's a minor inconvenience.
If this reduction saves lives then how many lives would it have to save before it becomes worth the hassle? For me personally if it saves one kids life then of course I can cope with some journeys taking a few minutes longer.
Is there anyone who doesn't think that is worthwhile?
Given there is still a risk of dying if you hit someone at 20mph, the logical step is to ban driving altogether. That way, we can reduce the risk of killing anyone to nil. If life preservation is the reason then we should go the whole hog rather than the half arsed measure conjured up by Drakeford.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I'm struggling to follow your argument but not your maths. I think you're arguing that a 70% survival rate at being hit by 'a vehicle' is good? I think that's from the viewpoint of the driver and not the pedestrian. It's important to note that vehicles, like people, come in all shapes and sizes.
there is quite a big difference between 90% and 30%, if the welsh government are saying 90% of pedestrians will die in a 40mph crash they are lying . perhaps we should bring back tufty and teach people road safety
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DryCleaning
Given there is still a risk of dying if you hit someone at 20mph, the logical step is to ban driving altogether. That way, we can reduce the risk of killing anyone to nil. If life preservation is the reason then we should go the whole hog rather than the half arsed measure conjured up by Drakeford.
Don't give them any ideas, we saw how enthusiastic they were with the lockdowns!
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Surely people can just object to a policy on the grounds without all of that? I support the senedd, I'd like it to have more powers, but on balance I don't think a blanket 20mph rule in all built up areas is a good thing. :shrug:
Well according to your breaking news earlier in the thread people don't adhere to it anyway so what's the issue?
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
neilw65
I agree with what you have said throughout this thread.
My frustration with transport in South Wales, particularly when attending events in Cardiff, (I live near Use) is that public transport is shocking. There needs to be greater investment in infrastructure, and quickly, to enable safer cycling, Rail and Bus.
I totally agree with you. It is shocking. It's something that, if I didn't live within easy(ish) walking distance of the city centre, I'd not bother with Cardiff and would move to a city that had a better public transport.
I think the implementation of cycle lanes and connecting networks has been awful. When the next bikes arrived there was no system in pedestrianised areas to safely use them, there still isn't. All this is part of a wider culture change to work and transport that's needed in the UK. Cardiff is not good at this stuff and Tuerto's right to say that Eric has made really good points and arguments about the effect of these restrictions. However, I agree with Rjk that keeping the bus network at 30mph would be the obvious solution.
James is right insomuch that you can object to wanting to have a blanket restriction for whatever reason and it doesn't have to be political. In fairness to James, he said it was stupid without referring to any political party or governance.
Cardiff's public transport system is sh*t. The implementation of cycle lanes is sh*t. Duty of care for pedestrians of all ages is sh*t. It's been like that for too long. So what do you want done about it? It's no good writing and complaining on here, do it to the Council and the Senedd. Campaigning and activism is hard f*cking work. It's slow and frustrating but it's the only way for me as I've given up on party politics and deal directly with people accountable.
When you're too afraid to walk around streets in Cardiff because of speeding traffic, or you don't go out because of fear, or you don't walk to the football because you feel unsafe, then surely we, as a community, should be trying to do something. It's not perfect and it's a blanket approach, but it will slow people down eventually, and for me and many others, that's a good thing.
I don't know, but I think a lot of people just either don't walk enough around Cardiff, or live in places where speeding cars are not a problem. You literally, have to walk in someone else's shoes to understand this stuff.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Why do you give a shit?
Lol
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
The police will presumably give people a while to get used to the new speed limit, then initially start pulling people over and telling them not to speed before they start to fine people.
It's really not that hard to get used to it, and as long as they can be a bit sensible about keeping them main through roads at 30 then it will have a minimal impact on most people.
As I said earlier, I drive across North Cardiff several times a week, and it's a minor inconvenience.
If this reduction saves lives then how many lives would it have to save before it becomes worth the hassle? For me personally if it saves one kids life then of course I can cope with some journeys taking a few minutes longer.
Is there anyone who doesn't think that is worthwhile?
It is a hassle I think, mainly because I find it difficult to remember to go 20. Even more so when there is no traffic about. I stick to it religiously by roath park as I know there is a speed camera there, but I’ve always got a car right up my arse the whole way
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
Well according to your breaking news earlier in the thread people don't adhere to it anyway so what's the issue?
That IS part of the issue. It's pointless. Costs money and undermines peoples faith in traffic regulations. And when people do adhere, it feels artificially slow, frustrating other drivers, leading to potentially dangerous overtaking and all the rest. Taxi drivers and bus drivers will feel obliged to stick to it, making those modes less viable.
It's OTT and just didn't need doing. Anyone who drives recklessly still does it. This just punishes those who drove sensibly, which on many roads in suburban Cardiff may be upto 30mph.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I totally agree with you. It is shocking. It's something that, if I didn't live within easy(ish) walking distance of the city centre, I'd not bother with Cardiff and would move to a city that had a better public transport.
I think the implementation of cycle lanes and connecting networks has been awful. When the next bikes arrived there was no system in pedestrianised areas to safely use them, there still isn't. All this is part of a wider culture change to work and transport that's needed in the UK. Cardiff is not good at this stuff and Tuerto's right to say that Eric has made really good points and arguments about the effect of these restrictions. However, I agree with Rjk that keeping the bus network at 30mph would be the obvious solution.
James is right insomuch that you can object to wanting to have a blanket restriction for whatever reason and it doesn't have to be political. In fairness to James, he said it was stupid without referring to any political party or governance.
Cardiff's public transport system is sh*t. The implementation of cycle lanes is sh*t. Duty of care for pedestrians of all ages is sh*t. It's been like that for too long. So what do you want done about it? It's no good writing and complaining on here, do it to the Council and the Senedd. Campaigning and activism is hard f*cking work. It's slow and frustrating but it's the only way for me as I've given up on party politics and deal directly with people accountable.
When you're too afraid to walk around streets in Cardiff because of speeding traffic, or you don't go out because of fear, or you don't walk to the football because you feel unsafe, then surely we, as a community, should be trying to do something. It's not perfect and it's a blanket approach, but it will slow people down eventually, and for me and many others, that's a good thing.
I don't know, but I think a lot of people just either don't walk enough around Cardiff, or live in places where speeding cars are not a problem. You literally, have to walk in someone else's shoes to understand this stuff.
It appears that (to someone who doesn't live in Cardiff) that they are gradually improving on the installation of cycle lanes. Albeit very slowly.
To improve the infrastructure in not only Cardiff, but South Wales as a whole, there needs to be radical thinking. I don't think this is a political thing, more that people are so against moving away from cars and the convenience they provide.
I think it needs people prepared to take on that radical way of think in the way that Andy Turnham and Chris Boardman have for Manchester.
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
neilw65
It appears that (to someone who doesn't live in Cardiff) that they are gradually improving on the installation of cycle lanes. Albeit very slowly.
To improve the infrastructure in not only Cardiff, but South Wales as a whole, there needs to be radical thinking. I don't think this is a political thing, more that people are so against moving away from cars and the convenience they provide.
I think it needs people prepared to take on that radical way of think in the way that Andy Turnham and Chris Boardman have for Manchester.
Spot on! 🤙
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
If you hit a pedestrian:
at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.
Source:
Roadwise
It's worth bearing in mind that drivers are already speeding in 30mph zones so therefore are likely to be speeding in 20mph zones too. Not anyone on here of course, because we're all law-abiding and socially minded members of the community on CCMB.
Personally, I can't wait for smart limiters on vehicles so you won't have any choice. AI is going to be so much better at this stuff than you are. You won't even need speed cameras because of smart data logs. All this stuff is available in motorsport right now (Endurance racing & F1) and all the current bells and whistles come from team and manufacturer's innovations.
Even the
World Endurance Championship is using biofuel this season.
you're giving off strong authoritarian/fascistic vibes
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Splott-light...
you're giving off strong authoritarian/fascistic vibes
:hehe: This is hilarious. Have you read some of the stuff on this board lately? You single out someone who's quoting figures from Roadwise, talking about road safety and automotive technology as authoritarian and fascistic! :hehe:
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Splott-light...
you're giving off strong authoritarian/fascistic vibes
I'm seeing a CCMB version of Greta Thunberg :biggrin:
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Re: Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Splott-light...
you're giving off strong authoritarian/fascistic vibes
You sound like Neil from 'The Young Ones' :hehe: