Fascism?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

You think Nazis weren't fascists?

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The Germans were National Socialists. Italy was Fascist.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

I'm sure you're an expert on fascism. What in this list isn't fascist then?

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

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Not an expert but unlike anyone in this thread so far, i have actually read texts from Oswald Moseley, who was a Fascist, a very intelligent, compasionate patriot who left the Labour party to espouse a Fascist manifesto. I can send anyone his Ebooks if they want.

That link is nonesense from what i can tell. Moseley didn't propose quelling academics or anything like that. I'd urge anyone to read Moseley texts, for example, he wanted to deal with parasitic international bankers, a currupt press funded by the rich for the rich. Would you disagree with that?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don’t for one moment believe that you actually think we are ‘well on the road’ to fascism, Bob.

Citing the flag of the country being on display or proposed privatisation of Channel 4 or decades old policies on capital punishment are not good examples at all. There are about 30 Welsyh flags flying from Cardiff Castle. Are we on the road to fascism too?

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You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

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Bob, that list was plucked from the air by Doucus (he who with zero irony is quick to call out fascism but happy to label Tories "noxious scum"). It doesn't have authority. It presents 14 traits that may well be traits of fascism, but are also general traits of all societies to varying degrees. Showing a national flag? Concern with law and order? Presentation of common enemies? This will apply to all countries.

Nonetheless, yes they may be traits of fascism also, but that doesn't mean the UK is 'far down the road' on that path. To the letter (apart perhaps from number 8) the traits you mention are also traits of communism. It doesn't mean the UK is 'far down the road' to communism either.

I do agree that the recent UK government was more populist than in recent times (although no more than what Corbyn proposed - it is the flavour of the month globally as you allude to) but that doesn't mean we are on the road to fascism. That's just extreme talk. Same as if we build new council houses or invest in the NHS or sign a trading deal with Cuba we are not "far down the road to communism".

You know full well the UK isn't fascist, nor heading to it. You know we have a free press, judiciary and legal system and you know that there will be countless local and national elections in the coming days, weeks, months and years that will be free and fair.

To imply we are like Germany in the 1930's or Spain and Italy earlier in this century is absurd. And yes, opinions are opinions, but fascism and it's victims are also fact and it's hyperbolic in the extreme to suggest what is being said in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

We are well on the road to fascism under this government according to this political scientist. https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Many members on this forum actively support much of the list above.

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You can apply that in equal measure to the left and right.

I dont see this country becoming authoritarian or fascist any time soon. Those who think otherwise are entitled to their opinion, but it smacks of political expediency to say so.

Boris had to go though, he was abhorrent. The GE can't come soon enough, we definitely need a change in government

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

The Germans were National Socialists. Italy was Fascist.

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Hitler modelled the NSDAP on Mussolinis black shirts. The nazis were fascists on steroids

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

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No way is Boris anywhere near a fascist, honestly this is laughable. He's a liberal, he's not even that Conservative.
Boris and Theresa May let in on average 300.000 foriengers a year NET. Infact, including students Boris let in 1 million foreigners last year. How is that the work of a Fascist? You cite the rwanda deportations but that's a very very small amount of people, done for political reasons not ideological.

Boris is NOT fascist, the word Fascist has been contorted and weaponised by the left. Whipping up gullible people into believing we are living in literal FASCISM. It's scary how easily people fall for this.

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

No way is Boris anywhere near a fascist, honestly this is laughable. He's a liberal, he's not even that Conservative.
Boris and Theresa May let in on average 300.000 foriengers a year NET. Infact, including students Boris let in 1 million foreigners last year. How is that the work of a Fascist? You cite the rwanda deportations but that's a very very small amount of people, done for political reasons not ideological.

Boris is NOT fascist, the word Fascist has been contorted and weaponised by the left. Whipping up gullible people into believing we are living in literal FASCISM. It's scary how easily people fall for this.

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When you start studying your O' Levels you might begin to understand what Fascism really means behind convenient labels. In all fairness I hope you learn something and do well in your exams because despite your naiivety you seem a willing student.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Hitler modelled the NSDAP on Mussolinis black shirts. The nazis were fascists on steroids

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Nah very few people get past the hysterical propoganda of National Socialism and Fascism and therefore don't know what they're talking about. I don't blame them, the propoganda is strong. Hitler may have taken aspects from Italy, but the German national Socialists were distinctly different from Italian fascists.
The main difference between Fascism and National Socialism is the role of the state in each system. Fascism is for statism, it teaches that the state is primary. And that the state forms the nation. In contrast National Socialism teaches that the native folk/people are primary and form the nation.In National Socialism the state serves the folk. National Socialism is NOT totalitarian.

Here is a quote from Italy's Fascist leader Benitto Mussolini from The Doctrine Of Fascism...

"The Fascist conception of the state is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have any worth. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist state, a synthesis and a unit of all values, interprets, develops and potentiates the whole life of a people...it is not the nation that generates the state, rather it is the state that generates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on people. In the Fascist conception the state is an absolute before which individuals and groups are relative..."

Now contrast this with a quote from Hitler on National Socialism ...

"The state is only a means to an end. It's end and it's purpose are to preserve and promote a community of human beings who are physically aswell as spiritually kindered...states which do not serve this purpose have no justification for their existence. They are monstrosities"

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

When you start studying your O' Levels you might begin to understand what Fascism really means behind convenient labels. In all fairness I hope you learn something and do well in your exams because despite your naiivety you seem a willing student.

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I've read Oswald Moseley on Fascism/National Socialism. What have you read on Fascism/National Socialism. Educate me...

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

You can apply that in equal measure to the left and right.

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Ok go through the list I posted and tell me which ones apply to the left and why.

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

Not an expert but unlike anyone in this thread so far, i have actually read texts from Oswald Moseley, who was a Fascist, a very intelligent, compasionate patriot who left the Labour party to espouse a Fascist manifesto. I can send anyone his Ebooks if they want.

That link is nonesense from what i can tell. Moseley didn't propose quelling academics or anything like that. I'd urge anyone to read Moseley texts, for example, he wanted to deal with parasitic international bankers, a currupt press funded by the rich for the rich. Would you disagree with that?

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What in the list isn't a sign of fascism?

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Originally Posted by Doucas

What in the list isn't a sign of fascism?

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It's all rubbish Doucas. What Fascism texts have you actually read?

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Ok go through the list I posted and tell me which ones apply to the left and why.

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They all apply to communism. Every one, bar perhaps number 8, where far-left states tended to want to eradicate religion, although in doing so they would become entwined.

I'd recommend reading a few books on the horrors of communism. There are some excellent ones around by Anne Applebaum and Tomothy Snyder. Horrific reading.

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

It's all rubbish Doucas. What Fascism texts have you actually read?

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So you can't answer then.

It's so so clear people like you, James and Mars would have supported the Nazi's in the 30s.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

So you can't answer then.

It's so so clear people like you, James and Mars would have supported the Nazi's in the 30s.

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I did answer. It's all rubbish and you're too "in it" to tell. By "in it" i mean leftist fear mongering peddled by the likes of Owen Jones etc.

I'll ask again, What fascist/National Socialist texts, written by It's proponents have you read?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They all apply to communism. Every one, bar perhaps number 8, where far-left states tended to want to eradicate religion, although in doing so they would become entwined.

I'd recommend reading a few books on the horrors of communism. There are some excellent ones around by Anne Applebaum and Tomothy Snyder. Horrific reading.

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The roots of Communism and the bolshevik revolution are very interesting.

Lenin said: "The goal of Socialism is Communism"

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Originally Posted by Doucas

So you can't answer then.

It's so so clear people like you, James and Mars would have supported the Nazi's in the 30s.

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Just another day from Doucus on CCMB with him casually accusing people of supporting one of the most murderous regimes in history.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They all apply to communism. Every one, bar perhaps number 8, where far-left states tended to want to eradicate religion, although in doing so they would become entwined.

I'd recommend reading a few books on the horrors of communism. There are some excellent ones around by Anne Applebaum and Tomothy Snyder. Horrific reading.

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Is anybody arguing in favour of communism in this thread? Or, is it that anyone who says they are left of centre politically is now assumed to be a communist?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Just another day from Doucus on CCMB with him casually accusing people of supporting one of the most murderous regimes in history.

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Isn’t the point that they weren’t one of the most murderous regimes in history during the period Doucas mentions. I don’t believe for a second that the millions of Germans who backed the Nazis in the thirties did so because they were aware of what Hitler was going to do in the early forties - were they really in favour of the culling of the Jews on a scale like that?

I believe that it is completely possible for people who consider themselves to be entirely reasonable and normal to be won over by extreme parties on the right and left if the right buttons are pushed. We can argue the toss about the list of fourteen points about fascism as much as we like, but my point is that the current Government ticks more of those boxes than any other one, Conservative or Labour, of my lifetime. I said earlier in the thread that I put a question mark in the title because I wasn’t convinced that it was Fascism that I was referring to, but I do find some of the responses which followed a bit complacent - I can’t remember a time more like the thirties in my life than now and I feel it’s now a bit easier to see how people were taken in by the likes of Hitler and Mussolini back then.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Is anybody arguing in favour of communism in this thread? Or, is it that anyone who says they are left of centre politically is now assumed to be a communist?

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If you scroll up you can see there was a debate about whether these are fascist traits or traits of all governments or traits of extremists of both left and right..

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Isn’t the point that they weren’t one of the most murderous regimes in history during the period Doucas mentions. I don’t believe for a second that the millions of Germans who backed the Nazis in the thirties did so because they were aware of what Hitler was going to do in the early forties - were they really in favour of the culling of the Jews on a scale like that?

I believe that it is completely possible for people who consider themselves to be entirely reasonable and normal to be won over by extreme parties on the right and left if the right buttons are pushed. We can argue the toss about the list of fourteen points about fascism as much as we like, but my point is that the current Government ticks more of those boxes than any other one, Conservative or Labour, of my lifetime. I said earlier in the thread that I put a question mark in the title because I wasn’t convinced that it was Fascism that I was referring to, but I do find some of the responses which followed a bit complacent - I can’t remember a time more like the thirties in my life than now and I feel it’s now a bit easier to see how people were taken in by the likes of Hitler and Mussolini back then.

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I suppose when you put it like that, it's a fair question to ask, although personally I would view it in the same way as asking whether Cardiff City on the trajectory to Champions League football having beaten Norwich 1-0 last week. We were moving in that direction afterall..

More generally, I think this kind of talk leads to people like Doucus speading more of his insults. I think there is also a concern about some on the left using fear as a voting technique..ie...vote for us, or else you get Tory fascism!

This is the kind of tactic some Republicans use in Florida to drive up the latino vote - ie, vote for us or else you get Democrat communism!

I think it's a bit of a radical and inflammatory position to take personally, but so be it.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I applaud your history of opposing fascism Jon. Can I ask your position on communism? You cite historical examples like Mussolini etc, and then allude to the last ten years in Hungary, Poland, USA etc.

What of the historical examples of communism around the world? Do you oppose that in equal measure?

That's a genuine open question. I used to be very left wing myself, would wear a CCCP top and generally viewed communism as good, if slightly misguided, until I fully understood the horrors of communism. I wonder whether that's your position?

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Jon has conveniently disappeared without answering this post and my question on what Fascist intellectuals he has actually read. But he has read fascist graffiti....

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

Jon has conveniently disappeared without answering this post and my question on what Fascist intellectuals he has actually read. But he has read fascist graffiti....

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Not disappeared but had other things to do and unwilling to feed some strands of this thread. However (and this will be a mistake):

Lither (or Slither or Hitler) - you are either a determined WUM or (as you appear) a racist, white nationalist and a neo-Nazi. Like your co-thinkers in the USA (from the KKK to the Proud Boys) you also tick the boxes of Fox endorsed conspiracy theories, support for an authoritarian Russian mafia-police state, and a dollop of antisemitism. The only surprises are that you don't yet appear to be a Zionist (maybe that is more an evangelical Protestant view than Catholic?) and you have some confused distinction in your head about significant differences between Italian and German fascism. There were differences of course, but not significant. Same ideology. And your hero Oswald Moseley was a close friend of Hitler - he married Diana Mitford (another Nazi like her sister Unity) in Goebel's home with Hitler as guest of honour. We would have been on opposite sides at Cable Street. You crack on with reading your scumbag 'fascist philosophers' and avoiding questions about what you disagree with in the writings of their critics. I won't be joining you.

James - I have never worn a CCCP top in my life. In my late teens and twenties I described myself as a communist - but not of the Stalinist or Maoist varieties. The people who thought like me in earlier decades were mostly murdered by Stalin. There has never been a communist paradise anywhere in the world. There have been liberation movements and governments that struggled to transform their societies and economies in the face of blockades and military threats - often with diplomatic and trade ties to the Soviet Union as the only way to survive. Of all the examples across Latin America, North Africa and the Far East, in my opinion Cuba was the most interesting and deserving of support. That is despite harsh repression of dissent (and harsher of sabotage) and an economy that barely survived the US blockade. They got many things wrong - inevitably - but for over 40 years transformed education, health, agriculture and sent out doctors and engineers across the global south to help others. But I don't call myself a communist any more. I still hold some of the same views I did in my twenties, but in practice I have been an active trades unionist and a socialist in the social democratic mainstream for most of my life. I was never a 'supporter' of the Soviet Union - although clearly I believe in collectivism.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Ok go through the list I posted and tell me which ones apply to the left and why.

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I'll just reference the USSR, the Eastern Bloc, China and North Korea.

if you don't think they are/were facist states then you don't understand fascism.

Fascism is all about control so is more up and down rather than left and right.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Is anybody arguing in favour of communism in this thread? Or, is it that anyone who says they are left of centre politically is now assumed to be a communist?

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ahem. i said that the list can apply to left and right in equal measure. Doucas asked for examples. now communists are far left, and this list applies to them.

To help you, no one is suggesting anyone is communist, only that communism is another form of fascism.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Isn’t the point that they weren’t one of the most murderous regimes in history during the period Doucas mentions. I don’t believe for a second that the millions of Germans who backed the Nazis in the thirties did so because they were aware of what Hitler was going to do in the early forties - were they really in favour of the culling of the Jews on a scale like that?

I believe that it is completely possible for people who consider themselves to be entirely reasonable and normal to be won over by extreme parties on the right and left if the right buttons are pushed. We can argue the toss about the list of fourteen points about fascism as much as we like, but my point is that the current Government ticks more of those boxes than any other one, Conservative or Labour, of my lifetime. I said earlier in the thread that I put a question mark in the title because I wasn’t convinced that it was Fascism that I was referring to, but I do find some of the responses which followed a bit complacent - I can’t remember a time more like the thirties in my life than now and I feel it’s now a bit easier to see how people were taken in by the likes of Hitler and Mussolini back then.

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Did you really compare the world in the 1930s with today?

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not disappeared but had other things to do and unwilling to feed some strands of this thread. However (and this will be a mistake):

Lither (or Slither or Hitler) - you are either a determined WUM or (as you appear) a racist, white nationalist and a neo-Nazi. Like your co-thinkers in the USA (from the KKK to the Proud Boys) you also tick the boxes of Fox endorsed conspiracy theories, support for an authoritarian Russian mafia-police state, and a dollop of antisemitism. The only surprises are that you don't yet appear to be a Zionist (maybe that is more an evangelical Protestant view than Catholic?) and you have some confused distinction in your head about significant differences between Italian and German fascism. There were differences of course, but not significant. Same ideology. And your hero Oswald Moseley was a close friend of Hitler - he married Diana Mitford (another Nazi like her sister Unity) in Goebel's home with Hitler as guest of honour. We would have been on opposite sides at Cable Street. You crack on with reading your scumbag 'fascist philosophers' and avoiding questions about what you disagree with in the writings of their critics. I won't be joining you.

James - I have never worn a CCCP top in my life. In my late teens and twenties I described myself as a communist - but not of the Stalinist or Maoist varieties. The people who thought like me in earlier decades were mostly murdered by Stalin. There has never been a communist paradise anywhere in the world. There have been liberation movements and governments that struggled to transform their societies and economies in the face of blockades and military threats - often with diplomatic and trade ties to the Soviet Union as the only way to survive. Of all the examples across Latin America, North Africa and the Far East, in my opinion Cuba was the most interesting and deserving of support. That is despite harsh repression of dissent (and harsher of sabotage) and an economy that barely survived the US blockade. They got many things wrong - inevitably - but for over 40 years transformed education, health, agriculture and sent out doctors and engineers across the global south to help others. But I don't call myself a communist any more. I still hold some of the same views I did in my twenties, but in practice I have been an active trades unionist and a socialist in the social democratic mainstream for most of my life. I was never a 'supporter' of the Soviet Union - although clearly I believe in collectivism.

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I'm a Catholic born and raised, not a Protestant. Catholics have a long history of highlighting disruptive Jewish misdemeanours in Europe. We could get into that in another thread one day. But i'd recommend reading "The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit" by E Michael Jones. I have an Ecopy if you'd like it sent somehow. I'm definitely not a Zionist at all sorry. Fox news is "controlled opposition" and not my thing. I note you criticised Oswald Moseley for his teneous association with emotive characters yet no critique of his actual brand of National Socialism. This strengthens my conclusion that you've not actually read the most prominent National Socialist in British history or ANY Fascist intellectuals at all. But you have read Fascist graffiti...
I'm not confused about the differences between Italian fascism and German National Socialism. I provided quotes from both Hitler and Mussolini whìch clearly demonstrate the ideological differences. Do you agree that the two quotes demonstrate a clear difference between Italy and Germany pre 1945?

As for supporting Russia, that's not a Fox news trope. Putin is actually said to be very popular and i believe American Imperialism should leave Russian interests well alone. People like you need to accept that Russians do things differently to us. While you could point to supposed Russian misdemeanours. You have to understand there's a huge propoganda war being waged by Western media outlets against Russia. With that in mind i'd approach any news about Russia with caution.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

ahem. i said that the list can apply to left and right in equal measure. Doucas asked for examples. now communists are far left, and this list applies to them.

To help you, no one is suggesting anyone is communist, only that communism is another form of fascism.

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That post was addressed to James Wales, not you, so why assume I was talking to you?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Did you really compare the world in the 1930s with today?

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What I said (it’s there in the post you replied to) is that I can’t remember a time more like the thirties than now - that’s not quite what you’re claiming I said, but I’d be interested to hear which decades since the fifties were more like the thirties in your opinion than the 2010s and 20s?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

That post was addressed to James Wales, not you, so why assume I was talking to you?

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Because I made the point first.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What I said (it’s there in the post you replied to) is that I can’t remember a time more like the thirties than now - that’s not quite what you’re claiming I said, but I’d be interested to hear which decades since the fifties were more like the thirties in your opinion than the 2010s and 20s?

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Don't get hung up on semantics, I'm not playing that game.

Your opinion may be nowadays and the 30s are more alike than any other decade, but I just don't see it.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Because I made the point first.

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What point?

Right, sorry I see it now. I agree, but I don’t think it relates to what James was saying.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Don't get hung up on semantics, I'm not playing that game.

Your opinion may be nowadays and the 30s are more alike than any other decade, but I just don't see it.

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You accuse me of being hung up on semantics, which I suppose gives you a means of ignoring the question I asked you if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You accuse me of being hung up on semantics, which I suppose gives you a means of ignoring the question I asked you if nothing else.

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I don't think any are like the 30s. To give one such reason, the current decade is not one of appeasement and conciliation, but of increased military spending and sabre rattling.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

I don't think any are like the 30s. To give one such reason, the current decade is not one of appeasement and conciliation, but of increased military spending and sabre rattling.

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Isn’t Ukraine proof that it’s a bit more than sabre rattling? You’re still not saying whether you think what we’re living through is the closest thing to the 30s in our lifetime's though, and, if you don’t, when has it been more like them.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Isn’t Ukraine proof that it’s a bit more than sabre rattling? You’re still not saying whether you think what we’re living through is the closest thing to the 30s in our lifetime's though, and, if you don’t, when has it been more like them.

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What evidence do you have that we are?
Aren't minorities better protected than ever?
Aren't people coming in boats to enter the UK from abroad at the moment? I think the opposite was happening in 1930s Germany.
Aren't far-right parties getting lower votes than at any point in the last 50 years?
Is our country not being praised by Ukraine for standing up to Putins behaviour?

It would strike me as a reverse example of the Red Scare if it wasn't the case that some on the left always think that fascism is just around the corner.

There are worrying transfers of power from the individual to institutions that technology is enabling more than anything, but the government aren't slowly building fascism.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Isn’t Ukraine proof that it’s a bit more than sabre rattling? You’re still not saying whether you think what we’re living through is the closest thing to the 30s in our lifetime's though, and, if you don’t, when has it been more like them.

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You misunderstand.

In the 1930s Britain took the path of appeasement. We're seeing the opposite of that with the UK giving open support and arming the Ukrainians. They are polar opposites in approach.

And still no one answers my question.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

You misunderstand.

In the 1930s Britain took the path of appeasement. We're seeing the opposite of that with the UK giving open support and arming the Ukrainians. They are polar opposites in approach.

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Sorry, I see what you mean.