Should there be a level playing field?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Get on with what ? Aspire to achieve nothing and just accept mediocrity ? Great.

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If the plastic feckers, fecked off, it would give other teams an incentive to win the Premier league, and not just be cannon fodder. Like we were in our two extremely disappointing seasons in the Prem. If you took away Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd, Liverpool and Sports Washing Utd, you'd have Brighton top with Leeds 2nd and Brentford 3rd! Surely that is better than the same old, same old winning things. Before you mention it, yeah I know Sports Washing Utd haven't won anything of note since the Fairs cup in 1969 but they soon will with all the money being pumped into the club.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

The rest of us do get on with it.

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So you are back to going down the City then? Thought you were spending your Saturday's playing with spiders?

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

So you are back to going down the City then? Thought you were spending your Saturday's playing with spiders?

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He was low on cash so he ate them

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He was low on cash so he ate them

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Not much meat on your average spider. he must have eaten a lot of them for one meal alone

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Yes but even second rate Premier League teams have to play the ‘big clubs’. Isn't that what it is all about ? Whats the point otherwise. Might as well scrap the whole league system. How would the so called ‘second rate’ Premier teams ever improve if they didn't play better teams. Theres nothing logical about your point at all. It is just the politics of envy.

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Let me make it clear for you

I don't like my ex girlfriend
I don't like too much hot weather
I don't like jazz music

But I absolutely hate the Premier league

It's not envy

Football the people's game has been turned into a circus 🎪

And if the big 4 or 5 pissed off I would be very happy

There is no logic to having these players on such huge money , it goes against my principles . But not yours . Because you are a tory .

And The Premier League is a tory boys dream

I would love to see it all collapse and see how the market you lot love so much deal with the mushroom cloud ☁️

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

Not much meat on your average spider. he must have eaten a lot of them for one meal alone

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Not much meat on him

He's only 5 foot tall

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

If the plastic feckers, fecked off, it would give other teams an incentive to win the Premier league, and not just be cannon fodder. Like we were in our two extremely disappointing seasons in the Prem. If you took away Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd, Liverpool and Sports Washing Utd, you'd have Brighton top with Leeds 2nd and Brentford 3rd! Surely that is better than the same old, same old winning things. Before you mention it, yeah I know Sports Washing Utd haven't won anything of note since the Fairs cup in 1969 but they soon will with all the money being pumped into the club.

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I hear you. I hear Sludge. Life's unfair. Seriously, I'm p*ssed with how unfair life is. However, we'd have to give up all sport. football and the game as we know it if we're to fight this stuff once and for all. I don't have that fight in me anymore. Even a few years ago I had more energy for this stuff and like Sludge would have been happy to see the whole thing come crashing down.

I watch non league footy. I go up to Cardiff Met and follow the the Cymru Premier. I go to women's football. I never watch MOTD. I never listen to pundits, ever. I don't go on Twitter. I'll find any football anywhere to go and watch rather than support the FIFA WC in Qatar. I read When Saturday Comes, The Mauve and Yellow Army and stuff on here with the occasional WOL article. That's it these days. The occasional article in The Guardian but I can't stand their football writers. That's as much as I can do otherwise I'm stuck inside, rocking and dribbling in a corner of a darkened room.

A very wise Blue Genie from Taunton once told me that if I ignore all this other stuff I'll be fine. It was in response to me stating I have a Love/Hate relationship with football. It's been a lot easier for me personally, since I took that advice.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I hear you. I hear Sludge. Life's unfair. Seriously, I'm p*ssed with how unfair life is. However, we'd have to give up all sport. football and the game as we know it if we're to fight this stuff once and for all. I don't have that fight in me anymore. Even a few years ago I had more energy for this stuff and like Sludge would have been happy to see the whole thing come crashing down.

I watch non league footy. I go up to Cardiff Met and follow the the Cymru Premier. I go to women's football. I never watch MOTD. I never listen to pundits, ever. I don't go on Twitter. I'll find any football anywhere to go and watch rather than support the FIFA WC in Qatar. I read When Saturday Comes, The Mauve and Yellow Army and stuff on here with the occasional WOL article. That's it these days. The occasional article in The Guardian but I can't stand their football writers. That's as much as I can do otherwise I'm stuck inside, rocking and dribbling in a corner of a darkened room.

A very wise Blue Genie from Taunton once told me that if I ignore all this other stuff I'll be fine. It was in response to me stating I have a Love/Hate relationship with football. It's been a lot easier for me personally, since I took that advice.

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That is one hell of a powerful post.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

So you are back to going down the City then? Thought you were spending your Saturday's playing with spiders?

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I am and I have been for a number of years. How about you? Do you go down the City? Sounds like you might spend your time playing with yourself.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I agree with dml1954 entirely.

This is a very special moment for me.

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It's weird right? It's happened to me.

Football mirrors society in that the extent to which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer has grown in the past thirty years (particularly in the Uk). That said, using the Championship as an example, there have been just four examples of matches with a winning margin of three goals or more with the campaign now just about a month old - that figure would always be far higher during the times when it’s claimed there was a more level playing field.

To a degree, the Championship is still a division where you can do well on a small budget - Leicester apart that’s no longer true in the Premier League and hasn’t been since its inception. The biggest clubs are now so powerful that any attempt to “clip their wings” by the authorities would probably fail, so I don’t see the current position changing unless there’s another attempt to form a Super League which succeeds.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

But the fact is there never has been a level playing field. The bigger clubs have always had significant and obvious advantages over the smaller clubs. It’s not a new development.

The question has always been whether or not they can use those advantages to build the best teams. Some do, some don’t. Same as it ever was.

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Before the Premier league there weren't many billionaire foreign owners yes you had rich clubs but the level of wealth nowadays is off the charts.
It is impossible to compete for 95% of clubs.
The best example I can give from 40 years ago is Nottingham Forests rise from the old 3rd division to winning the 1st division then twice winning the European Cup.
That could never happen now and that's because of money.
Being aspirational these days is Nottingham Forest spending 120 million to just survive in the Premier league and its a massive gamble that could put the club to the wall.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I am and I have been for a number of years. How about you? Do you go down the City? Sounds like you might spend your time playing with yourself.

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Nah, I spend way too much time in the Butchers Arms. you still drink there?

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Originally Posted by insider

The best example I can give from 40 years ago is Nottingham Forests rise from the old 3rd division to winning the 1st division then twice winning the European Cup. That could never happen now and that's because of money.

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Nottingham Forest didn't rise from the old Third Division to win the First Division. From 1957/58 to 1971/72 they were in the First Division (they finished runners-up to Manchester United in 1966/67). They spent five seasons in the Second Division before promotion in 1976/77.

When Forest won the First Division title, they were the seventh best-supported side in the top flight. By comparison, when Leicester won the Premier League title in 2015/16, they were the twelfth best-supported side in the top flight.

I agree it's highly unlikely a club could emulate Forest's achievements in Europe in this day and age, but that has as much to do with the Champions League format as anything else.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

Nah, I spend way too much time in the Butchers Arms. you still drink there?

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I was there on Saturday for a while, but not so often these days.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Let me make it clear for you

I don't like my ex girlfriend
I don't like too much hot weather
I don't like jazz music

But I absolutely hate the Premier league

It's not envy

Football the people's game has been turned into a circus 🎪

And if the big 4 or 5 pissed off I would be very happy

There is no logic to having these players on such huge money , it goes against my principles . But not yours . Because you are a tory .

And The Premier League is a tory boys dream

I would love to see it all collapse and see how the market you lot love so much deal with the mushroom cloud ☁️

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Newcastle id say with the Saudi money are about to join that big 4 or 5.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I agree it's highly unlikely a club could emulate Forest's achievements in Europe in this day and age, but that has as much to do with the Champions League format as anything else.

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The champions league is just more money on top of the millions that is slushing around in the Premier league.
I'm glad you agree.

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Originally Posted by insider

The champions league is just more money on top of the millions that is slushing around in the Premier league. I'm glad you agree.

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I'm not a fan of the Champions League at all, or any other European cup competition for that matter. I believe all cups (European and domestic) should be straight knock-out competitions, and I believe the numbers of teams competing in the European competitions should be greatly reduced.

In my opinion, what has happened to the cup competitions (domestic and European) in recent times is a great shame. Like most fans, I used to love cup matches. Now they are often a farce, but all clubs are responsible for bringing about that situation, including Cardiff City.

No, level playing field without the bigger clubs sounds quite boring.

It wouldn't be level for long either, the bigger, better supported clubs would dominate sucking up whatever paltry amount of money would be on offer. Many clubs would go out of business with less income.

Bournemouth also won 8 nil away at Birmingham in 2014, these results happen everywhere in every league from time to time. They also beat some of the "super league" clubs during their 4 or 5 years in the PL.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

If the plastic feckers, fecked off, it would give other teams an incentive to win the Premier league, and not just be cannon fodder. Like we were in our two extremely disappointing seasons in the Prem. If you took away Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd, Liverpool and Sports Washing Utd, you'd have Brighton top with Leeds 2nd and Brentford 3rd! Surely that is better than the same old, same old winning things. Before you mention it, yeah I know Sports Washing Utd haven't won anything of note since the Fairs cup in 1969 but they soon will with all the money being pumped into the club.

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The seven ‘big clubs’ you mention are seven of the clubs with the biggest history and achievements in football over the last 70-80 years and you just want to eradicate them because you don't like them and think they have too much money. If it wasn't for them the league format wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be going down to the City stadium hoping to see our team succeed and get in the top flight again.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Let me make it clear for you

I don't like my ex girlfriend
I don't like too much hot weather
I don't like jazz music

But I absolutely hate the Premier league

It's not envy

Football the people's game has been turned into a circus ��

And if the big 4 or 5 pissed off I would be very happy

There is no logic to having these players on such huge money , it goes against my principles . But not yours . Because you are a tory .

And The Premier League is a tory boys dream

I would love to see it all collapse and see how the market you lot love so much deal with the mushroom cloud ☁️

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Your opinion on football is basically the same as your political views - you don't like the fact that some people work hard, make money and aspire to better things and you believe that all their money should be taken off them and ‘redistributed’ to people like yourself who have probably sat around all their lives doing feck all, sponging off everyone else and believing that the world owes them a life and a living. How sad.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Your opinion on football is basically the same as your political views - you don't like the fact that some people work hard, make money and aspire to better things and you believe that all their money should be taken off them and ‘redistributed’ to people like yourself who have probably sat around all their lives doing feck all, sponging off everyone else and believing that the world owes them a life and a living. How sad.

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Bit socialist

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I agree with dml1954 entirely.

This is a very special moment for me.

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I knew that it had to happen eventually ! :hehe:

While an ESL would relegate everything else to minor league status, the only difference these days is we're allowed to walk amongst them, fighting over 1 cup in 10 or 1 league title in 25. For a non Top 6 fan to argue against an ESL is to fight for an existence on paltry scraps.

The whole system is built for them anyway (and anyone with a billion quid) - if we unearthed a "Top 6" talent, that's where he would go, as if promoted up the corporate structure, possibly even before he turned out for our first team. And if they don't like the system they change it. Sooner or later, the Champions League structure will change again to allow more (rich) clubs in - why would Newcastle spend a billion quid to qualify for the Europa Conference League?

If that's what we're clinging to I can well understand those wishing they'd all go away.

From a more optimistic (possibly Pollyanna) angle, under an ESL European borders would be rendered irrelevant and we could invite Scottish or continental teams into a new structure or competition and as long as it was well regulated, perhaps people would embrace the level playing field.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I hear you. I hear Sludge. Life's unfair. Seriously, I'm p*ssed with how unfair life is. However, we'd have to give up all sport. football and the game as we know it if we're to fight this stuff once and for all. I don't have that fight in me anymore. Even a few years ago I had more energy for this stuff and like Sludge would have been happy to see the whole thing come crashing down.

I watch non league footy. I go up to Cardiff Met and follow the the Cymru Premier. I go to women's football. I never watch MOTD. I never listen to pundits, ever. I don't go on Twitter. I'll find any football anywhere to go and watch rather than support the FIFA WC in Qatar. I read When Saturday Comes, The Mauve and Yellow Army and stuff on here with the occasional WOL article. That's it these days. The occasional article in The Guardian but I can't stand their football writers. That's as much as I can do otherwise I'm stuck inside, rocking and dribbling in a corner of a darkened room.

A very wise Blue Genie from Taunton once told me that if I ignore all this other stuff I'll be fine. It was in response to me stating I have a Love/Hate relationship with football. It's been a lot easier for me personally, since I took that advice.

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Ironically, if you canvassed the fans [the ones who actually go and watch their team in person] of both the top PL clubs and the other 85 or so league clubs, I bet percentage-wise there would be more advocating a breakaway super league from the 85. If the top clubs in Europe can't get their fans on their side, we'll still end up with a super league in all but name. Why do you think the 5 subs rule came in and stuck ? The top 6 PL clubs could field a second string in the PL for three quarters of games and still finish comfortably in the top half - even more convincingly in the other big European leagues. No worry about 'qualifying for Europe', they'll already be there with another 12-16 clubs, playing their best players in matches hyped throughout the Western and more significantly, Eastern World. They'll get richer and richer, with a guarantee of European money every year. Sad, but look at Golf and F1. It's money, not sport.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I'm not a fan of the Champions League at all, or any other European cup competition for that matter. I believe all cups (European and domestic) should be straight knock-out competitions, and I believe the numbers of teams competing in the European competitions should be greatly reduced.

In my opinion, what has happened to the cup competitions (domestic and European) in recent times is a great shame. Like most fans, I used to love cup matches. Now they are often a farce, but all clubs are responsible for bringing about that situation, including Cardiff City.

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Totally agree on all that.
The greed of making the European competition into 2 stages of league qualification. Is money motivated by the tv companies.
In my opinion it has completely devalued the league Cup and fa cup.
Very sad especially the fa cup, it was probably up there with my favourite part of football.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Ironically, if you canvassed the fans [the ones who actually go and watch their team in person] of both the top PL clubs and the other 85 or so league clubs, I bet percentage-wise there would be more advocating a breakaway super league from the 85.

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I bet there wouldn't. And I'd be willing to bet maximum stakes by my standards.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Your opinion on football is basically the same as your political views - you don't like the fact that some people work hard, make money and aspire to better things and you believe that all their money should be taken off them and ‘redistributed’ to people like yourself who have probably sat around all their lives doing feck all, sponging off everyone else and believing that the world owes them a life and a living. How sad.

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The pathetic antics of some Premier league footballers in terms of diving and play acting tells me everything I need to know about modern football

The fact that you kiss its arse tells me everything I need to know about you

You and the Premier league were made for each other sonny

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Ironically, if you canvassed the fans [the ones who actually go and watch their team in person] of both the top PL clubs and the other 85 or so league clubs, I bet percentage-wise there would be more advocating a breakaway super league from the 85. If the top clubs in Europe can't get their fans on their side, we'll still end up with a super league in all but name. Why do you think the 5 subs rule came in and stuck ? The top 6 PL clubs could field a second string in the PL for three quarters of games and still finish comfortably in the top half - even more convincingly in the other big European leagues. No worry about 'qualifying for Europe', they'll already be there with another 12-16 clubs, playing their best players in matches hyped throughout the Western and more significantly, Eastern World. They'll get richer and richer, with a guarantee of European money every year. Sad, but look at Golf and F1. It's money, not sport.

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Of course it is , for football read cricket , read golf

It's all bullshit driven by money

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

While an ESL would relegate everything else to minor league status, the only difference these days is we're allowed to walk amongst them, fighting over 1 cup in 10 or 1 league title in 25.

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You're also allowed to beat them. Even Cardiff City managed that on one occasion. Swansea managed it a number of times during their stay in the Premier League.

The notion that any City fan is peeved that the Bluebirds can't realistically compete with the biggest clubs in the country is just hilarious. The highest Cardiff have finished in the English pyramid in almost all of our lifetimes is 15th, and that happened more than sixty years ago! We can certainly aspire to finish 14th. Brentford bettered that last season, as did Crystal Palace, Wolves and Brighton.

The last time Cardiff City were in the top six, Hitler was five years away from seizing power in Germany. I think that puts things in perspective.

Who's to say that we would have a level playing afterwards ? Could just end up with a new big 4 or 6 emerging who go on to dominate.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No.

Liverpool 9 Bournemouth 0 was a freak result. Such a scoreline has only been achieved four times in the history of the Premier League.

It’s football. These things happen from time to time in every league in the world.

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This. We shouldn't make grand changes over freak results, although as a follower of Scottish football I do feel like something needs to be done, but thats based on decades of results and a huge and widening gap between the old firm and the rest.

It is, alas, the case in much of Europe. We are lucky in English football to traditionally have had a very competitive league. France was similar, as was Germany and Italy, but Spain has been dominated by two teams, Portugal by three, Greece by three, Netherlands by three etc etc etc.

I do think the link between national teams and leagues is important, and the whol pyramid of football, with promotion and relegation and qualifying for europe works. That said, would I really object to a Nordic league where Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark combined? Would a joint Dutch and Belgian league really be so bad? Would I mind a British league? An Alpine league for Switzerland and Austria? If they retained promotion and relegation and qualifying for Europe then I'd be okay with it.

I'm not saying I want that, but I am open minded to it and it may help bridge the gaps a bit. Other than that, we really need to reign in the Champions League a bit, so I object to nearly every change made to it in recent years which have overwhelmingly benefited richer teams.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It is, alas, the case in much of Europe. We are lucky in English football to traditionally have had a very competitive league.

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Indeed.

Bayern's league results so far this season: 6-1, 2-0, 7-0, 1-1.

PSG's league results so far this season: 5-0, 5-2, 7-1, 1-1.

Liverpool's league results so far this season: 2-2, 1-1, 1-2, 9-0.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Indeed.

Bayern's league results so far this season: 6-1, 2-0, 7-0, 1-1.

PSG's league results so far this season: 5-0, 5-2, 7-1, 1-1.

Liverpool's league results so far this season: 2-2, 1-1, 1-2, 9-0.

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No wonder Glatzel is scoring so much in Bundesliga 2 if the top league is this uncompetitive.😂

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The pathetic antics of some Premier league footballers in terms of diving and play acting tells me everything I need to know about modern football

The fact that you kiss its arse tells me everything I need to know about you

You and the Premier league were made for each other sonny

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Players in every league, in every country of the world, dive and play act, so what that has got to do with anything ? I don't go around lecturing people about how they should live their lives and espousing discredited and outdated communist views either.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Ironically, if you canvassed the fans [the ones who actually go and watch their team in person] of both the top PL clubs and the other 85 or so league clubs, I bet percentage-wise there would be more advocating a breakaway super league from the 85. If the top clubs in Europe can't get their fans on their side, we'll still end up with a super league in all but name. Why do you think the 5 subs rule came in and stuck ? The top 6 PL clubs could field a second string in the PL for three quarters of games and still finish comfortably in the top half - even more convincingly in the other big European leagues. No worry about 'qualifying for Europe', they'll already be there with another 12-16 clubs, playing their best players in matches hyped throughout the Western and more significantly, Eastern World. They'll get richer and richer, with a guarantee of European money every year. Sad, but look at Golf and F1. It's money, not sport.

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You mean like the many thousands of fans who took to social media and the streets to protest about the recent super league breakaway and forced its cancellation. You have no idea what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Players in every league, in every country of the world, dive and play act, so what that has got to do with anything ? I don't go around lecturing people about how they should live their lives and espousing discredited and outdated communist views either.

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It's got everything to do with it as the premiership is where the elite play

No wonder kids of 5 and 6 and rolling around pretending they have shot

Stamp down on that and we might get somewhere

You silly tory tart

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Originally Posted by dml1954

You mean like the many thousands of fans who took to social media and the streets to protest about the recent super league breakaway and forced its cancellation. You have no idea what you are talking about.

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So you are happy about the wealth of the PL but if and lets face it when a European Super League forms and the top clubs become richer and a bigger gap between them and the rest occurs will you then support them and criticise those against as following the politics of envy.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You're also allowed to beat them. Even Cardiff City managed that on one occasion. Swansea managed it a number of times during their stay in the Premier League.

The notion that any City fan is peeved that the Bluebirds can't realistically compete with the biggest clubs in the country is just hilarious. The highest Cardiff have finished in the English pyramid in almost all of our lifetimes is 15th, and that happened more than sixty years ago! We can certainly aspire to finish 14th. Brentford bettered that last season, as did Crystal Palace, Wolves and Brighton.

The last time Cardiff City were in the top six, Hitler was five years away from seizing power in Germany. I think that puts things in perspective.

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I'm not sure anyone thinks City have been thwarted by anything other than being a relative shambles for decades but plenty of other mid size clubs used to finish in the top 6 or win a trophy.

Knocking over a giant from time to time and getting excited about that is akin to a cup giant killing and not two teams competing in the same division.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

I'm not sure anyone thinks City have been thwarted by anything other than being a relative shambles for decades but plenty of other mid size clubs used to finish in the top 6 or win a trophy.

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Earlier in this thread, one contributor said: "We have got no chance of ever being a top 6 big club, the best we can hope for is a second rate Premier league...." as if that was a relatively new development. It obviously isn't.

When you say "plenty of other mid-sized clubs used to finish in the top six," which specific period are you referring to?