Are Wales crap, under-performing or a mixture of both?

The conditions keep getting mentioned. While its an advantage to those who play in warmer climates it doesn't help when you cant keep the ball and we were passing the ball to Iranian players long before the heat took its toll.

Keep giving the ball away and of course you will be knackered if you have to chase it.

Im sure it was hot for England and they barely broke sweat and destroyed Iran.

The 2 goals. Its unfortunate for Allen that his errors were punished but you cant put that down to conditions. Nor Roberts ridiculous pass in the 1st half for the offside goal , or Hennessy charging out of goal or Rodon running out of defence v USA.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

The conditions keep getting mentioned. While its an advantage to those who play in warmer climates it doesn't help when you cant keep the ball and we were passing the ball to Iranian players long before the heat took its toll.

Keep giving the ball away and of course you will be knackered if you have to chase it.

Im sure it was hot for England and they barely broke sweat and destroyed Iran.

The 2 goals. Its unfortunate for Allen that his errors were punished but you cant put that down to conditions. Nor Roberts ridiculous pass in the 1st half for the offside goal , or Hennessy charging out of goal or Rodon running out of defence v USA.

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We had 62% of possession apparently

The only one who was affected by the heat was Page before a ball was kicked.

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Originally Posted by City123

We had 62% of possession apparently

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Doesnt suprise me. What we did with that possession until we lost it was one of the issues.

We have a number of [layers who are coming to the end of the international careers - Bale, Ramsey, Morrison, Gunter, maybe Hennessy. We don't really have players of the same quality coming through, though there are a couple of bright prospects. In our recent games, we've set out wrong from the start both times, though you can se why Page thought that. Like everyone else has said, we've had a great 7 years, and it's going to a close. We're going to have to start again. Not sure Page is the right guy for that, though.

Steve Morison anyone.🤣🤣🤣

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

My opinion for what it's worth is that we have been in the top twenty of the FIFA rankings continuously for seven years, so, in a tournament which has thirty two sides in it, we should be there on merit based on what's happened since 2015. It's not some fluke that we've had seven years at a level which we could not have dreamed of a decade ago. Yes, I accept that were now at a stage where that ranking is very likely to drop, but I still say that it's not just Bale and Ramsey who are under performing, the whole squad is.

In my blog piece for the Iran game, I said Ampadu had a poor game and I stick by that and, yet, if you asked me to pick a Welsh player of the tournament up to now, I'd probably go for him - that really shows how low the level of performance has been from the squad. I have no expectations of qualification or even a win tomorrow, but would like to think that we would at least be able to show the world that we're better than what we've produced so far.

So, I suppose my answer to the question I set in the title is that it's a mixture of both, but with far more of the under performing aspect than the us being crap one.

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Unfortunately, a team comprising of has beens who are not performing anywhere near their best, of players who are not match fit including the first group, of second-string players, of youngsters all of whom played without the passion that is required to overcome their individual failings and whose ability to pass, even when not under pressure was appallingly poor.

Here we go.. We're a poor side, but weaker with Ramsey and Bale. Sentiment aside, there aren't more than half a dozen decent Welsh players. Small - or like us - tiny nations, can only work with what they've got, and we really haven't got a lot.

Crap

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Small - or like us - tiny nations, can only work with what they've got, and we really haven't got a lot.

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That may be true, but it riles me when people say we can't compete because we're a small (or even tiny) nation. 9 of our squad members were born outside Wales. By contrast, Denmark has a population of around 5m and I believe all their World Cup squad was born in Denmark. In football terms, whilst we will inevitably lack the player pool that large countries have, we are not the tiny minnows that some suggest. Its reasonable to expect us to be competitive, whether that's in qualifying stages or, occasionally, in World Cup or Euro finals. We haven't been competitive in this WC and that's frustrating.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

We deserved to beat Austria, but I'd say the last team we stuffed was Belarus. Professional football and, especially, top level football is not about playing sides off the park every week though, no one does that - how can we be crap if, to use your words, we've consistently been able to dig out vital results in recent years?

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We’re still trying to play a formation for players pst their best. Not that we have replacements so I think we should have changed tactics and approach to accept that some players are now but part not, as they have been played, full 90min players

I think to call the first Welsh side to qualify for the World Cup in 64 years "crap" is ridiculous and quite frankly insulting.

It was never going to be a formality that we would get out of the group stage. Our two world class playes are sadly now in the twiglight of their career and weve asked Bale to go to the well and be the match winner so many times - as recent as May and June this year for the play offs - but unfortunately this tournament just seems like one occasion too many.

Yes the performance against Iran and 1st half against USA was nowhere near the standards we have set in recent times but to start now calling Wales "Crap" is extremely harsh.

As bad as Iran looked against England they were extremely high energy against Wales and clearly adapted to the heat and conditions better so you have to give them some credit too. They are not the only so called small nation to cause an upset this tournament, and lets be honest we are a small nation ourselves. One of the smallest at the finals i would say.

I think Welsh football fans have been spoiled with the success of Euro 2016 and qualifying for 3 out of the last 4 major finals. It must have been if we are now calling Wales "crap" even though we are at a World Cup finals.

I seen this highlighted on another forum, it was a Facebook status by Johnny Owen from last Friday and sums it up perfectly for me.

"I have to be honest and say I’ve been saddened (but not surprised) at some of the vitriol I’ve seen on here to some of the Welsh players and Bale and Ramsey in particular.

I get the more successful you are the more support grows and what was once the hardcore now becomes a larger fanbase and some probably expect success like 2016.

I’d say to you now to forget it. Go off and support Real Madrid if you want that because you aren’t going to get it with Wales.

Yes we could lose heavily to England. Yes, we were well beaten by Iran in the end but let’s not forget a few things.

Firstly we are the smallest country there. That’s a fact. We haven’t got the population size to compete with someone like Brazil. That’s just how it is. Again, if you want that kind of success go and pretend to be German.

Secondly Bale and Ramsey are two of the greatest players we’ve ever had. Possibly the best. They have scored in games to get us to major tournaments when other greats (Rush, Giggs) didn’t and couldn’t.
Magical nights against Hungary and the Ukraine. The kind of countries we just couldn’t get past in times past.

I’ve seen some mad threads. One where someone was saying we have too many English born players! Haha…As if only picking pure borns (not that there’s any such thing of course) would mean we’d compete better.

It was ONE ****in game. In the last we dug in and got the point against the biggest country at the tournament who then drew against England too. Give your head a wobble for ****s sake.

I’ll end by saying this. Perhaps we need this. A few years of us being Wales again. The people who always went will still go. Some would probably prefer it. Even I don’t want people along who have turned so quickly. Let them go watch rugby or whatever it is they did before.

Wales (or Cymru) will carry on. Another batch of players will come through. Maybe it will take a few years but that’s being Welsh. We simply haven’t got the population. BUT we are small and sometimes that’s beautiful. You’ll lose more than you win but never will the so called big countries ever get to feel what we did when we fell a giant. When you beat a Russia in a major tournament .. I tell ya… it’s as close to touching heaven on earth as is possible. Bringing one of the bullies down. They’ll never experience that like us. THAT’S being Wales. Don’t expect anything else…it’s enough for most of us.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I think to call the first Welsh side to qualify for the World Cup in 64 years "crap" is ridiculous and quite frankly insulting.

It was never going to be a formality that we would get out of the group stage. Our two world class playes are sadly now in the twiglight of their career and weve asked Bale to go to the well and be the match winner so many times - as recent as May and June this year for the play offs - but unfortunately this tournament just seems like one occasion too many.

Yes the performance against Iran and 1st half against USA was nowhere near the standards we have set in recent times but to start now calling Wales "Crap" is extremely harsh.

As bad as Iran looked against England they were extremely high energy against Wales and clearly adapted to the heat and conditions better so you have to give them some credit too. They are not the only so called small nation to cause an upset this tournament, and lets be honest we are a small nation ourselves. One of the smallest at the finals i would say.

I think Welsh football fans have been spoiled with the success of Euro 2016 and qualifying for 3 out of the last 4 major finals. It must have been if we are now calling Wales "crap" even though we are at a World Cup finals.

I seen this highlighted on another forum, it was a Facebook status by Johnny Owen from last Friday and sums it up perfectly for me.

"I have to be honest and say I’ve been saddened (but not surprised) at some of the vitriol I’ve seen on here to some of the Welsh players and Bale and Ramsey in particular.

I get the more successful you are the more support grows and what was once the hardcore now becomes a larger fanbase and some probably expect success like 2016.

I’d say to you now to forget it. Go off and support Real Madrid if you want that because you aren’t going to get it with Wales.

Yes we could lose heavily to England. Yes, we were well beaten by Iran in the end but let’s not forget a few things.

Firstly we are the smallest country there. That’s a fact. We haven’t got the population size to compete with someone like Brazil. That’s just how it is. Again, if you want that kind of success go and pretend to be German.

Secondly Bale and Ramsey are two of the greatest players we’ve ever had. Possibly the best. They have scored in games to get us to major tournaments when other greats (Rush, Giggs) didn’t and couldn’t.
Magical nights against Hungary and the Ukraine. The kind of countries we just couldn’t get past in times past.

I’ve seen some mad threads. One where someone was saying we have too many English born players! Haha…As if only picking pure borns (not that there’s any such thing of course) would mean we’d compete better.

It was ONE ****in game. In the last we dug in and got the point against the biggest country at the tournament who then drew against England too. Give your head a wobble for ****s sake.

I’ll end by saying this. Perhaps we need this. A few years of us being Wales again. The people who always went will still go. Some would probably prefer it. Even I don’t want people along who have turned so quickly. Let them go watch rugby or whatever it is they did before.

Wales (or Cymru) will carry on. Another batch of players will come through. Maybe it will take a few years but that’s being Welsh. We simply haven’t got the population. BUT we are small and sometimes that’s beautiful. You’ll lose more than you win but never will the so called big countries ever get to feel what we did when we fell a giant. When you beat a Russia in a major tournament .. I tell ya… it’s as close to touching heaven on earth as is possible. Bringing one of the bullies down. They’ll never experience that like us. THAT’S being Wales. Don’t expect anything else…it’s enough for most of us.

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Fair points, which I agree with to a very large extent, I think it's fair to say though that the whole squad, not just two members of it, have failed to do themselves justice in the two games so far - we're better than we've shown so far. Although we got stuffed by Denmark in the last Euros, I don't feel like we let ourselves down in that tournament, whereas, if we get more of what we saw for all of the Iran match and most of the USA one tonight, I think we will have done this time.

My only hope is England have another Iceland moment and capitulate, I really can’t see that with this squad though. I can see usa v Iran being a draw but despite the red wall and all the players big talk I think we are in for another shite night…..

I'm happy with the thought that getting to the World Cup was the achievement, so many times in the past we have seen Wales fail at the last Hurdle, Bodes pen miss was a massive low for me during that year

My youngest daughter who loves football, plays, watches all she can and is 100% Welsh ( despite having the option to support England, her mum is and she was born over here ) only knows success, the Euro 16 and 20's, she knows of a successful welsh team, but for most of us, it hasn't always been like that, Ive told her now that Bale and Rambo ( and a few others ) are coming to the end, we might be in with a lean spell in supporting Wales, she names a few welsh players that she thinks could make it and is happy with that

as I typed this, a Insta post from FAWALES just pinged up on my watch, its Rambo saying " Little old Wales " after the Ukraine game, maybe we have missed the enjoyment of being at the World Cup with our welsh attitude

sadly we don't have the resources of players and are so out of our depth

USA 350 Million
Iran 85 Million
England 56 Million
Wales 3 Million.

Expected

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Originally Posted by Forgotmyoldaccount

USA 350 Million
Iran 85 Million
England 56 Million
Wales 3 Million.

Expected

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so USA should have won the group then Iran then England ?

There are around 120 professional Welsh footballers in total. 1 in 5 of the total available players are in the squad and 1 in 3 have been capped puts it in perspective.

I don’t think a team that qualifies from Europe for a World Cup can be considered crap. Even Euros winners Italy failed to qualify. Although there’s no escaping we’ve been crap at this World Cup.

I think the lack of lead up to this tournament hasn’t helped, a few friendlies would’ve helped. The WC games strangely felt like those end of season friendlies pre-tournement of old when we hadn’t qualified. Tired, jaded.

Although the results didn’t go our way in the Nations League the performances were definitely encouraging, with a mix of players used, and at the time I thought that experience stood us in good stead particularly when we know reliance on Bale, Ramsey, et al can’t now be assumed.

Sadly, that didn’t carry through. There were a lot of basic errors throughout the team, poor touches, bad passing, etc. I don’t really know how to account for this really. I think it’s down to both players and manager rather than either/or.

I appreciate Page is in a catch 22 with our remaining “golden era” players, especially at a World Cup, which I thought the NL games were showing us pivoting away from reliance on them and using them a bit more sensibly given injury and fitness concerns. I’m not saying results would’ve been different had they been used differently (I think every player pretty much has had stinkers to varying degrees) but it felt like it hung over proceedings.

Still proud as punch we got there and I thought at the start of this tournement that getting out of the group would in no way be a gimme. I was a little surprised by how optimistic a lot of commentators were about our chances. Maybe a little hubris, although you’d expect better performances. So I’m less bothered about the results but the manner in which the games have been played.

And as disappointing as this tournement has been, the thought that came to mind last Friday when I was walking out of London Welsh more than anything was the frustration of how we messed up qualifying for 2018 and in a way perhaps that was the one we really missed out on.

I agree with much being said but I do feel that the management and players have bought into the ‘pleased we are here’ attitude a little too much.

This World Cup felt like a step too far for me before the tournament began. I didn't share the same optimism that some of my pals did. Seeing how little game time Ramsey and Bale were getting, coupled with Joe Allen having been out for some time and clearly in decline after being released from Stoke really made me fear the level of performance we would offer. I'm sorry to say, but last night's performance was exactly what I expected given the previous two matches. All of that said, it still feels unacceptable to call a team, that qualified for a World Cup, crap. In decline? Yes. Ran out of steam? Yes.

We now have 3 months and more until our next fixture. That leaves plenty of time for the dust to settle and for a frank assessment to be made after the disappointment eases. I do not necessarily want to see Rob Page replaced just now. Of course he has made mistakes and our development as a team will greatly depend on his ability to learn and improve. I'm sure he will admit that he is not Jose Mourinho, but he is a proud Welshman and will be hurting just like the rest of the nation. He has been loyal to the old guard and I can forgive him that. Yet we now have a perfect opportunity to make necessary changes and I think I favour evolution over revolution. Page could do worse than speak with Toshack and Flynn about their experience of ushering in the youth, and I'd also like to see Osian Roberts return to the fold. Although I'm not sure he would be prepared to leave his post at Palace while they are doing reasonably well under Viera.

Onwards to Croatia in March. Let's hope that the Welsh players in and around the squad get plenty of first team football between now and then.

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Originally Posted by Harry Bosch

This World Cup felt like a step too far for me before the tournament began. I didn't share the same optimism that some of my pals did. Seeing how little game time Ramsey and Bale were getting, coupled with Joe Allen having been out for some time and clearly in decline after being released from Stoke really made me fear the level of performance we would offer. I'm sorry to say, but last night's performance was exactly what I expected given the previous two matches. All of that said, it still feels unacceptable to call a team, that qualified for a World Cup, crap. In decline? Yes. Ran out of steam? Yes.

We now have 3 months and more until our next fixture. That leaves plenty of time for the dust to settle and for a frank assessment to be made after the disappointment eases. I do not necessarily want to see Rob Page replaced just now. Of course he has made mistakes and our development as a team will greatly depend on his ability to learn and improve. I'm sure he will admit that he is not Jose Mourinho, but he is a proud Welshman and will be hurting just like the rest of the nation. He has been loyal to the old guard and I can forgive him that. Yet we now have a perfect opportunity to make necessary changes and I think I favour evolution over revolution. Page could do worse than speak with Toshack and Flynn about their experience of ushering in the youth, and I'd also like to see Osian Roberts return to the fold. Although I'm not sure he would be prepared to leave his post at Palace while they are doing reasonably well under Viera.

Onwards to Croatia in March. Let's hope that the Welsh players in and around the squad get plenty of first team football between now and then.

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Excellent post. My feelings (and hopes) mirror yours.

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Originally Posted by Harry Bosch

This World Cup felt like a step too far for me before the tournament began. I didn't share the same optimism that some of my pals did. Seeing how little game time Ramsey and Bale were getting, coupled with Joe Allen having been out for some time and clearly in decline after being released from Stoke really made me fear the level of performance we would offer. I'm sorry to say, but last night's performance was exactly what I expected given the previous two matches. All of that said, it still feels unacceptable to call a team, that qualified for a World Cup, crap. In decline? Yes. Ran out of steam? Yes.

We now have 3 months and more until our next fixture. That leaves plenty of time for the dust to settle and for a frank assessment to be made after the disappointment eases. I do not necessarily want to see Rob Page replaced just now. Of course he has made mistakes and our development as a team will greatly depend on his ability to learn and improve. I'm sure he will admit that he is not Jose Mourinho, but he is a proud Welshman and will be hurting just like the rest of the nation. He has been loyal to the old guard and I can forgive him that. Yet we now have a perfect opportunity to make necessary changes and I think I favour evolution over revolution. Page could do worse than speak with Toshack and Flynn about their experience of ushering in the youth, and I'd also like to see Osian Roberts return to the fold. Although I'm not sure he would be prepared to leave his post at Palace while they are doing reasonably well under Viera.

Onwards to Croatia in March. Let's hope that the Welsh players in and around the squad get plenty of first team football between now and then.

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Agree re Osian.

Playing Bale & Ramsey in every match turned every game into attackers v defenders. That is the genius of Rob Page. Get him out whatever it takes!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Playing Bale & Ramsey in every match turned every game into attackers v defenders. That is the genius of Rob Page. Get him out whatever it takes!

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Do you think either Coleman or Giggs would have left Bale and/or Ramsey out of the starting line up fit any of the three games? I don’t think they would have.

Noel Mooney has just done an interview on SSN where he described Rob Page as a 'fantastic and progressive coach'.

Not the slightest hint that the 4 year contract will be binned any time soon.

FWIW I agree Page should be given time to evolve the squad and show whether or not he has the ability (with his coaches - where changes may be needed) to make the next Wales team more than the sum of its parts (like Speed, Coleman and maybe even Giggs).

I'm watching Tunisia now pace power aggression energy every player. You couldn't say that about any of our lot. We were an embarrassment in this world cup.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Do you think either Coleman or Giggs would have left Bale and/or Ramsey out of the starting line up fit any of the three games? I don’t think they would have.

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Probably included for the first game, possibly for the second, but not all three!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Probably the first game, possibly the second, but not all three!

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Think Coleman would have picked them for all of the games, you might be right about the third game with Giggs though.

Bale has been so completely anonymous you have to wonder whats been happening in training. Its obvious he was nowhere near the standard needed.

Im not convinced a better manager wouldnt have left him out.

Page must have known he was playing a passenger. I cant believe hes been ripping it up in training.

Ramseys different. He was covering ground and getting involved he just played poorly. So did the whole side though. I think he would have been picked anyway.

I can't stand Jason Cundy but he makes a fair point. Qatar, who wouldn't even be involved if they weren't hosting, managed to grab a point more than us.

1 goal from a pelanty, that's it. Not a single outfield goal in nearly 300 minutes of open play.

Page is not the man to take us forward.
All this nonsense of how proud we should be etc... Proud of what exactly? Piss poor tactics, selections, performances and results?

I'm still only just recovering from yesterday, had to go and "have a lie down" for nearly 24 hours after that shower of shite.

We've got a point more than them.
I'm losing it, head's gone.
I'm off to lie down again.
☹️

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Originally Posted by Ninja

I can't stand Jason Cundy but he makes a fair point. Qatar, who wouldn't even be involved if they weren't hosting, managed to grab a point more than us.

1 goal from a pelanty, that's it. Not a single outfield goal in nearly 300 minutes of open play.

Page is not the man to take us forward.
All this nonsense of how proud we should be etc... Proud of what exactly? Piss poor tactics, selections, performances and results?

I'm still only just recovering from yesterday, had to go and "have a lie down" for nearly 24 hours after that shower of shite.

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We should be proud of them for getting there and I think they were given full credit for that.

I used to say about our first Premier League season in 13/14 that no one on the playing side, football management and coaching side and in the Boardroon came out of that season with their reputation enhanced apart from David Marshall. I believe much the same applies to Wales’ World Cup campaign except that there isn’t a Marshall there - who came out of this with their reputation intact, let alone enhanced?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Do you think either Coleman or Giggs would have left Bale and/or Ramsey out of the starting line up fit any of the three games? I don’t think they would have.

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I think Giggs certainly wouldn’t have left Bale out if needed. I understand why Page started him in the first game but for him to play every minute of the first two games, was odd management.

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Originally Posted by Ninja

I can't stand Jason Cundy but he makes a fair point. Qatar, who wouldn't even be involved if they weren't hosting, managed to grab a point more than us.

1 goal from a pelanty, that's it. Not a single outfield goal in nearly 300 minutes of open play.

Page is not the man to take us forward.
All this nonsense of how proud we should be etc... Proud of what exactly? Piss poor tactics, selections, performances and results?

I'm still only just recovering from yesterday, had to go and "have a lie down" for nearly 24 hours after that shower of shite.

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Qatar didn't get a point more than us.