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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Are you for real? The Scottish support for independence keeps growing. I guarantee that if the SNP don't install a pro independence leader it'll fail and another party will emerge.
No it doesn't
It's reached its peak a long time ago its on the wane now which is why she's jumped ship
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I don't care if it dies as long as there is an alternative to vote for
I don't care if Plaid dies either , I just don't want the Tories in power
If you don't want the Tories in power, why are you happy to let England have the major say in general elections that affect Wales? England is generally a Tory country. Whatever England wants, Britain gets.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
No it doesn't
It's reached its peak a long time ago its on the wane now which is why she's jumped ship
Nonsense.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Plaid are crap
Every election they and their groupies tell us the time is here !
But it isn't
I would only vote Plaid if it was to oust a tory
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Nonsense.
A few thousand people walking around with yes Cymru banners is not going to give you lot what you want
Like Europe the best way for Wales to fight its corner is within the United Kingdom
It's far from perfect but the nationalists running the show is a horrific portent
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
If you don't want the Tories in power, why are you happy to let England have the major say in general elections that affect Wales? England is generally a Tory country. Whatever England wants, Britain gets.
No it isn't
More people vote for opposition parties than tory
It's the electoral system that's broken
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Lets hope J K Rowling takes over ,as she played a wonderful effort to topple this supposed leader
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
If you don't want the Tories in power, why are you happy to let England have the major say in general elections that affect Wales? England is generally a Tory country. Whatever England wants, Britain gets.
To be fair were not all living in poverty , folks standards of living are way better than in previous decades , we may not like their decisions , you do however have to consider they have been in and out of power much longer than any opposition party ?
Politcial equation : Wales / Scotland = dislike the English = vote for anyone but Tory = poor standards of developed government management.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The big loss of votes from Labour to the SNP in Scotland had a massive effect on the ability of Labour to win a majority at Westminster
I hope that the departure of sturgeon weakens their position as in many ways they are a one trick pony
I don't think Scotland could last long on its own and those that think Wales could are utterly deluded .
why wouldn't Scotland "last long" ? what do you think would happen to it?
Other similar sized European countries do just fine, why do you think that Scotland couldn't?
Ireland was one of the poorest parts of the UK when it became independent, and no doubt people like you if it was happening today would be saying that they could never make it on their own - fast forward 100 years it is a richer country than the UK and soon to be absorbing a chunk of it.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
why wouldn't Scotland "last long" ? what do you think would happen to it?
Other similar sized European countries do just fine, why do you think that Scotland couldn't?
Ireland was one of the poorest parts of the UK when it became independent, and no doubt people like you if it was happening today would be saying that they could never make it on their own - fast forward 100 years it is a richer country than the UK and soon to be absorbing a chunk of it.
Sludgey is way off on this one. For Scotland read Norway of 50 years ago, for Wales read Ireland of 50 years ago. Slavish adoration of Labour is not a path forward for Wales.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
Sludgey is way off on this one. For Scotland read Norway of 50 years ago, for Wales read Ireland of 50 years ago. Slavish adoration of Labour is not a path forward for Wales.
Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help
That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.
Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.
The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.
With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
why wouldn't Scotland "last long" ? what do you think would happen to it?
Other similar sized European countries do just fine, why do you think that Scotland couldn't?
Ireland was one of the poorest parts of the UK when it became independent, and no doubt people like you if it was happening today would be saying that they could never make it on their own - fast forward 100 years it is a richer country than the UK and soon to be absorbing a chunk of it.
Just to add to that. By the end of next year the average Slovenian will have more purchasing power than the average UK worker.
UK is stagnating and has been since 07/08, no reason why Scotland couldn't succeed after going independent. The main problem with the independence movement is how 'brexity' it is, your average independence supporter things it will solve every problem overnight. No clear plan means fannying around for years (as with brexit).
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help
That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.
Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.
The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.
With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.
Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.
I think you've spotted a fatal flaw in Jimbo's argument there.:hehe:
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.
Yep, understandable. That was one of the main reasons people voted remain and largely explained why poorer people generally voted leave; because whatever the causes, the risks are more enticing when the status quo isn't serving you so well.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help
That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.
Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.
The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.
With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.
I am asking this in a spirit of enquiry.
If you feel "British", why don't you relocate over the border? There is much more of that Billy Brit nonsense going on over there. (You do love borders, remember?)
I definitely feel Welsh ('though I am technically now an American). I even bought a home in Ceredigion last year because it felt more like "home" than Penylan.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yep, understandable. That was one of the main reasons people voted remain and largely explained why poorer people generally voted leave; because whatever the causes, the risks are more enticing when the status quo isn't serving you so well.
"Poor people" in the UK are going to suffer a lot more from being outside the EU than in it. "Poor people" voted leave because they were fed an absolute torrent of lies.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
az city
"Poor people" in the UK are going to suffer a lot more from being outside the EU than in it. "Poor people" voted leave because they were fed an absolute torrent of lies.
Oh two tropes in one message. Excellent work AZ!
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Oh two tropes in one message. Excellent work AZ!
Ah ok. It seems the right have now translated the word "truth" into "trope". Classic culture war bollocks straight from the bowels of Tufton Street.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
Ah ok. It seems the right have now translated the word "truth" into "trope". Classic culture war bollocks straight from the bowels of Tufton Street.
"The right", "poor people are fed lies" and then you accuse others of culture war rhetoric! 🤣 Just because you say it it doesn't make it truth ya know..you are just pumping out tropes, hard to view it otherwise. Things are more complex than you present.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
I am asking this in a spirit of enquiry.
If you feel "British", why don't you relocate over the border? There is much more of that Billy Brit nonsense going on over there. (You do love borders, remember?)
I definitely feel Welsh ('though I am technically now an American). I even bought a home in Ceredigion last year because it felt more like "home" than Penylan.
Because Wales is part of Britain, and whatever decisions people make on where they live are made on a great number of factors not just identity.
Good for you on your multiple homes and identities ,👍
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Attachment 5415
Thank god her reign of terror is over :shrug:
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
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Originally Posted by
Doucas
Great leader for Scotland.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Because Wales is part of Britain
Good for you on your multiple homes and identities ,��
One home and one identity: Wales and Welsh.
I must have missed the agreement of Wales to become part of Billy Britland. Can you remind me when we Welsh agreed to that?
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
One home and one identity: Wales and Welsh.
I must have missed the agreement of Wales to become part of Billy Britland. Can you remind me when we Welsh agreed to that?
There wasn't a referendum, but even if there was one several hundred years ago you can guarantee you would still be arguing about it.
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There wasn't a referendum, but even if there was one several hundred years ago you can guarantee you would still be arguing about it.
So you agree England occupied Wales. Is it OK with you to invade and subjugate neighbours?
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Re: Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
So you agree England occupied Wales. Is it OK with you to invade and subjugate neighbours?
Of course England occupied Wales. So did Wessex occupy Eastern England and Northumbria occupied the midlands and Norwegians occupied parts of Northern England. At one point in our history Danish Vikings from Ireland occupied what is now north west England. You are talking about something that happened many hundreds of years ago.
If you wish to apply that to the modern world that is up to you I suppose, but it's not a particularly smart thing to do, and it's certainly a divisive outlook. A lot has happened since. I don't think Arizonians had a vote on leaving Mexico and becoming part of the United States either, does that mean you accuse anyone living there of being OK with invading and subjugating neighbours?
You can't get invited to that many parties if so!
