CCFC accounts

Who would own a football club, imagine bailing out a club to the amount Tan has, and still almost everyone hates him :shrug:

Mostly his own fault mind, why didn't he appoint a top DOF and get the best Manager available right at the start!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I can't think of anyone less suited to a Director of Football role than Neil Warnock

Responsible for club strategy, overseeing the development of youth players and directing club recruitment?

Joint manager? Warnock would never go for that.... it would be short-lived carnage if it was ever tried.

There might have been some value in recruiting Warnock onto the Board to provide experience and advice to the absentee directors - but with limited ability to block youth development or splash Tan's cash on aging pros managed by the agency that employs (and pays bonuses to) his son!

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So the only option the club had was to appoint someone else after he had got us promoted or after relegation

And that's it

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Warnock would be a ridiculous choice for director of football - that would have him concentrating on all of the things he's awful at and none of the things he's really good at

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Almost entirely true

So what should have happened and why are people now pointing fingers

It's hindsight and utterly pointless

Hammam , utter chancer

Ridsdale , ditto

Tan .....appoints malky , Malky fecks up , various crap appointments , warnock gets us promoted , feck up , Harris, McCarthy , Morrison , Hudson

Now we seem to have a decent management team

I think some people are treading water here

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

None that I know of

The trust members and officials were the only ones standing up to the regime and getting threats and intimidation for the pleasure of doing so

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So too were many non-Trust fans, lest nobody forget.

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Originally Posted by insider

When warnock spunked the Premier league money on "his type of players" the football club with no football knowledge then let him get more of "his type of players" after relegation , before he "knew when to leave".
The club never managed him they were incapable of doing so.
Poor management results in debt.

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Football - especially the UK is still often too beholden to the "big football man knows how to football" and when they find someone who is even the slightest bit successful in a manager role that basically let them free reign over everything.
Add that to the fact that Warnock could sell sand to the sahara and you havea recipe for disaster.
When it is someone like warnock who has gotten success by excellent man management and motivation and a simple tactical approach then that is never going to work forever.

In many american sports, the recruitment and development and strategy side of things are completely separetd from the first team day to day management, coaching and tactics - there is some evidence that since Warnock has gone that the manager at least has a smaller voice in these things, early days but fingers crossed

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Almost entirely true

So what should have happened and why are people now pointing fingers

It's hindsight and utterly pointless

Hammam , utter chancer

Ridsdale , ditto

Tan .....appoints malky , Malky fecks up , various crap appointments , warnock gets us promoted , feck up , Harris, McCarthy , Morrison , Hudson

Now we seem to have a decent management team

I think some people are treading water here

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I'm all for having a director of football type role - but not for that to be Neil Warnock.

The strategy of hiring a manager and hoping that they will fix everything and stay successful forever is clearly not working

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Football - especially the UK is still often too beholden to the "big football man knows how to football" and when they find someone who is even the slightest bit successful in a manager role that basically let them free reign over everything.
Add that to the fact that Warnock could sell sand to the sahara and you havea recipe for disaster.
When it is someone like warnock who has gotten success by excellent man management and motivation and a simple tactical approach then that is never going to work forever.

In many american sports, the recruitment and development and strategy side of things are completely separetd from the first team day to day management, coaching and tactics - there is some evidence that since Warnock has gone that the manager at least has a smaller voice in these things, early days but fingers crossed

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The American sports model is completely different though; more franchise based, approval to buy a franchise dependent on support of other owners, salary caps etc. Add in the inks with colleges around drafting players, it's not necessarily directly comparable with non American sports.

It's rare that you'd find a football manager happy with players being bought for them. Look how much Conte whines at Spurs and they've adopted parts of that model.

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Originally Posted by logic

The American sports model is completely different though; more franchise based, approval to buy a franchise dependent on support of other owners, salary caps etc. Add in the inks with colleges around drafting players, it's not necessarily directly comparable with non American sports.

It's rare that you'd find a football manager happy with players being bought for them. Look how much Conte whines at Spurs and they've adopted parts of that model.

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Is American football , baseball hit by scandal of dodgy owners ?

Ridsdale and Hammam were dodgy

Tan has made some utterly ridiculous decisions but that's a bit different

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I'm all for having a director of football type role - but not for that to be Neil Warnock.

The strategy of hiring a manager and hoping that they will fix everything and stay successful forever is clearly not working

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Well I said that as everyone goes on and on about directors of football

Wether it's Charlie Dimmock or whoever I would like to know if all clubs have them and if they do .....are they all doing a good job ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I said that as everyone goes on and on about directors of football

Wether it's Charlie Dimmock or whoever I would like to know if all clubs have them and if they do .....are they all doing a good job ?

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Most clubs these days have someone in that kind of role, under various names, but there are widely different ways that it has been implemented

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Is American football , baseball hit by scandal of dodgy owners ?

Ridsdale and Hammam were dodgy

Tan has made some utterly ridiculous decisions but that's a bit different

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Errm, yes, if you did your actual research.

Grim reading and not getting any better

Perhaps the only slight positive is that this season our wage outlay is dramatically reduced

But leaving aside the ownership and team management, which are appalling and already commented on, the club shoot themselves in the foot with regards to merchandise, food and drink at the stadium and general commercial opportunities.

I suppose a promotion would significantly help but that seems a long way off.... Our annual punt has only worked twice in 13 years and when it did work, was unsustainable.

Sad reading but as always thanks to Keith for his diligence in helping fans understand some of the more nuanced details.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Who would own a football club, imagine bailing out a club to the amount Tan has, and still almost everyone hates him :shrug:

Mostly his own fault mind, why didn't he appoint a top DOF and get the best Manager available right at the start!

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Entirely his own fault

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Originally Posted by logic

Errm, yes, if you did your actual research.

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I am not interested in American sports , I thought you might have been able to enlighten me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I can't think of anyone less suited to a Director of Football role than Neil Warnock

Responsible for club strategy, overseeing the development of youth players and directing club recruitment?

Joint manager? Warnock would never go for that.... it would be short-lived carnage if it was ever tried.

There might have been some value in recruiting Warnock onto the Board to provide experience and advice to the absentee directors - but with limited ability to block youth development or splash Tan's cash on aging pros managed by the agency that employs (and pays bonuses to) his son!

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Do any guidelines or rules apply in such circumstances, does anyone know?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I am not interested in American sports , I thought you might have been able to enlighten me

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Not here to teach you how to use google, old chap.

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Originally Posted by logic

Not here to teach you how to use google, old chap.

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Well I don't want to waste my time researching as you put it into American directors of sport in baseball etc

Especially when there are helpful people on here with regard to such matters

The teaching profession missed a trick not taking you on .....

Hey Mr Logic ? .......can you as our history teacher tell us about the Arab Israeli conflict and its origins since the creation of Israel ?

Mr Logic ......no .....piss off .....Google it !

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Do any guidelines or rules apply in such circumstances, does anyone know?

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Mr Logic

Email him

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Originally Posted by logic

More taxes exist than Corporation Tax.

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but not in the P&L. This is a reference to corp tax on tax losses, not accounting losses.

Surely the FA, along with a few others, would want clarification on the names of the unnamed person giving loans to the club?

I also noticed that some feel many things have happened to Tan and he has been unlucky in some aspects. Really?
You could argue Sala was a complete bolt out of the blue but the rest of it he has been hands on with every decision and has to take his share of responsibility for where the club currently sits. Even the dud signings he has to shoulder some responsibility. All happening under his watch and with his money.
Yes, he doesn't have a great deal of knowledge on the day to day running of a football club, but then you admit that and employ somebody who does. You don't just bash on in the hope you'll pick it up as you go along. This is professional football.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I don't want to waste my time researching as you put it into American directors of sport in baseball etc

Especially when there are helpful people on here with regard to such matters

The teaching profession missed a trick not taking you on .....

Hey Mr Logic ? .......can you as our history teacher tell us about the Arab Israeli conflict and its origins since the creation of Israel ?

Mr Logic ......no .....piss off .....Google it !

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Having taken a beating from Dembe, Sludge moves on.

It would be utterly boring for endless reams of text to be posted about the topic.

Here's one for you. Google "Jerry Jones".

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

The following has just been sent out to Trust menbers.

"Trust Chair Keith Morgan, a football finance expert, comments on the latest Cardiff City FC (Holdings) Ltd accounts for the year ended May 31, 2022.

The accounts were signed off by Chair Mehmet Dalman on February, 24, 2023 and the accompanying group strategic report by CEO Ken Choo on the same date. The audit report was signed off by auditors BDO on February 28, 2023.

Summary

The accounts show an operating loss for the year of £28.9m (2021 £12.1m) and a loss after tax of £26.6m (2021 £12.0m).

As a consequence of the above losses and other adjusting transactions the balance sheet deficit as at 31 May 2022 rose from £36m as at 31 May 2021 to £56m.

Profit and loss account

Turnover fell dramatically in the year from £55.2m in 2020/21 to £20.0m as a consequence of losing income from "parachute payments" and despite an increase of £3.5m in gate receipts in the post-Covid pandemic period.

Efforts were clearly made to reduce operating costs to try and offset at least part of the loss of income with player salaries down by approximately £4m although it should be noted that the majority of player salary savings would have occurred after the balance sheet date with 11 players whose contracts had expired coming off the payroll in June 2022. The 14 players brought in to replace them (and three other loan signings) were at significantly lower salary cost.

Administration costs were down by £11.4m from £30.9m to £19.5m. This was principally due to a reduction in the cost of amortising (depreciating) and making an impairment provision for the playing squad where this cost reduced by £11m compared to 2020/21. There was a profit on player sales of £4.2m (2021 £2.9m).

Interest payable in the year of £2.4m was slightly up on the 2021 figure of £1.9m

Directors` remuneration was down significantly to £143k (2021 £550k) with the highest paid director paid £121k (2021 £413k). The accounts do not disclose which other director(s)received remuneration in the two years. The reduction is almost certainly as a result of the CEO Ken Choo moving to a part time role at the club.



Balance sheet

The value of the playing squad as at 31 May 2022 had been written down to £2.5m from a value at the previous year end of £10.5m. Player addition costs in the year were only £1m with players originally costing over £14m leaving the club at a profit of £4.2m compared to their written down value.

The club`s stadium asset stood in the accounts at £77.6m.

As at 31 May 2022 a total of £7.7m was due to the club, including £4.6m of transfer fee instalments

The main liabilities in the May 2022 balance sheet were amounts of £73m due to Vincent Tan and his family and £25.8m due to Tormen Finance, a company in which Mehmet Dalman has a significant interest – this loan carries interest at 9%. This amounted to £98.8m of total debts due of £123.4m (up from £113.4m in 2021). The balance of debts due included £12m of accruals (including season ticket money received in advance) , transfer fee instalments payable of £2.6m and the remaining balance of an EFL pandemic support loan of £5.5m.

There continues to be full provision in the accounts at £20.7m for settlement of the Emiliano Sala dispute with FC Nantes, as has been the case since 2019.

There are important matters to note in respect of the debt due to Vincent Tan

a) There were new loans of £19.8m made by him in the year, with repayments to him and his family of only £1.1m

b) In the year he converted £6.6m of debt due to him into shares

c) Just after the year end, in June 2022 he converted a further £19m of debt into shares

d) Of the total due to Vincent Tan £51.2m carries interest at 7% and rights to convert into shares. The rest carries no interest and has no conversion rights.



Contingent liabilities

The Companies Acts require companies to disclose material liabilities which might arise in future , dependent upon certain events occurring. In the balance sheet notes is a disclosure of a potential liability of £4.9m relating to player contracts and these will refer to amounts payable should a player achieve certain targets such as appearances, goals , international caps etc. plus any share of transfer profits due to a former club should a player be sold on. The notes state that such events will probably not occur so no provision is needed for this in the balance sheet.



Related party transactions

In the year consultancy fees were paid to WMG Group in respect of the services of Mehmet Dalman and £1.7m was paid in loan interest to Tormen Finance .



Post balance sheet events

Some significant events have occurred between the 31 May 2022 balance sheet date and the date the accounts were signed off by the directors on 24 February 2023 which are noted in the accounts

a) As noted above ,Vincent Tan converted a further £19m of debt into shares

b) Further loans of £24.4m were made to the club at 9% interest by an unnamed party

c) New players were acquired at a cost of £5.4m

d) Legal actions regarding the Emiliano Sala case are ongoing

Other matters

The directors' reports accompanying the accounts reveal two other important points

a) The club is negotiating with the EFL to have the current transfer embargo under EFL rule 52.6 fully lifted

b) Plans are progressing for the construction of a new training facility for sole use of the club first team to be held under a 150 year lease with the aim of completion in time for the 2025/26 season. This is not the same facility currently being developed in Llanrumney for the club to hire for its Academy teams"

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I have only just realised that this commentary is my first draft which was subsequently amended for some typos in the figures and text. The draft and final versions give the same overall impression but it should have been the final version not the draft which went out.

Keith

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have decided that dembe is a fanny and he can carry on trying to annoy everyone else then vanishing down a rabbit hole , if he's your new buddy I wish you a happy marriage xx

With regard to this matter the accounts warnock and a possible director of football there have already been some interesting contributions from the trust chair and a few others .

You may or may not have something to add and I was interested in your post and responded politely but you have not replied with the same so I think you should go out for a very long walk , come home , have a shower and go to bed as you are about as useful as a candle in a snowstorm .

You are impotent .

Google that .

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The point you're spectacularly missing, Sludge, is that the American model doesn't necessarily fit non American sports due to the vast differences involved.

You then see fit to whine, asking if top management in US sports are dodgy.

Simple googling would reveal numerous instances, here's another, "Washington Commanders". Or "Robert Kraft". Or "Daniel Snyder".

Now, do you think the American style is better or worse, and why?

One positive from the accounts is that the First team training ground is full steam ahead. I assume it's the one at Miskin which has been rumbling along for a few years.

To the point made earlier on the difference between the profit before and the profit after tax:
- the level of debt is only relevant in terms of the amount of interest paid, as it affects the profit before tax.
- the tax charge is not just a simple percentage of the current year’s profit. There are other factors (such as “timing differences”) which form part of its calculation.

If the club made a loss of £29m last year, and £12m the year before, then surely we're already set to exceed the "£39m over 3 years" target set to comply with FFP? Does that mean we have to make a profit of £3m next season, or get a fine and points deduction? Or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by tforturton

If the club made a loss of £29m last year, and £12m the year before, then surely we're already set to exceed the "£39m over 3 years" target set to comply with FFP? Does that mean we have to make a profit of £3m next season, or get a fine and points deduction? Or am I missing something?

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There were adjustments made in earlier years to compensate for the impact of Covid which increased the allowable losses under P&S rules

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

In an ideal world warnock would have got us promoted after looking like we were going down then the board offer him a joint managers role or director of football post

He wouldn't have accepted either

They were in no man's land

A lot of hindsight and wise after the event comments on here

When did you realise things were going tits up and why didn't you start shouting from the rooftops then ?

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You’re wrong Sludge, plenty on here and elsewhere accurately predicted how the 19/20 season would go under Warnock before a ball was kicked - they could see what was coming after the signing of players such as Flint, Vaulks, Pack and Vassellto add to the earlier mad deal for Bacuna.

If somebody wanted to buy Cardiff city, Shirley the value is a couple of million at most right?

No real assets aside from a few players, disparity between outgoing and incomings to make your eyes water. what would be the true value you think, do we own anything?

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Originally Posted by OurManFlint II

If somebody wanted to buy Cardiff city, Shirley the value is a couple of million at most right?

No real assets aside from a few players, disparity between outgoing and incomings to make your eyes water. what would be the true value you think, do we own anything?

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He won't get what he wants for it that's for sure.

Buyers don't care about what you've put in, only what it's worth. We ain't worth a lot.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

He won't get what he wants for it that's for sure.

Buyers don't care about what you've put in, only what it's worth. We ain't worth a lot.

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Huddesfield are for sale for 1 gbp, but you need to clear their debt of about 30 million.

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Originally Posted by OurManFlint II

Huddesfield are for sale for 1 gbp, but you need to clear their debt of about 30 million.

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Probably a fair bit cheaper than us then.

How much are we paying to Dalman's firm in interest per season/year?

https://swissramble.substack.com/p/qpr-finances-202122 Here is an analysis of QPRs accounts by Swiss Ramble, which gives some context to our figures - although most of the values on there so far were for 2021 still which was covid affected

I haven't looked into the accounts much but a £29 million loss is crazy! If we had 25 players on £22k a week that's £29 million.

Obviously there are loads of other expenses but my figures above assumes an income of zero. What the hell is going on?!

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Originally Posted by Doucas

I haven't looked into the accounts much but a £29 million loss is crazy! If we had 25 players on £22k a week that's £29 million.

Obviously there are loads of other expenses but my figures above assumes an income of zero. What the hell is going on?!

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Football is going on.

You seem surprised.

I somehow missed this thread previously and now it’s 6 pages deep. What’s the gist of things? Are we losing money at a concerning rate or in line with most Championship clubs? Any interesting things that stick out; wages, money for the Sala transfer, debts, etc.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

I somehow missed this thread previously and now it’s 6 pages deep. What’s the gist of things? Are we losing money at a concerning rate or in line with most Championship clubs? Any interesting things that stick out; wages, money for the Sala transfer, debts, etc.
Thanks.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

I somehow missed this thread previously and now it’s 6 pages deep. What’s the gist of things? Are we losing money at a concerning rate or in line with most Championship clubs? Any interesting things that stick out; wages, money for the Sala transfer, debts, etc.
Thanks.

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Income is down massively, as this covers our first season without parachute payments - which left a £35m hole in the accounts
If I'm reading it right, player wages are down a bit - 22 million down from 26 million, and will presumably be a bit lower again next time around.

some things i don't understand - on page 17 we have income down to 19m from 55m (predominately due to parachute payments) and

cost of sales down to 29m from 36m - is that player wages + other related costs?

then there's also administrative expenses at 19m down from 30m - any idea what that relates to anyone?


I

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Yes

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Both ?