Triple Lock

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Originally Posted by Alan Lung

WTF?? The state pension is not a benefit, it's been paid for by the recipient over their working life.

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Yes it is

https://www.benefitsguide.co.uk/stat...20or%20credits.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

It's the envy, they despise workers getting it.

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Cobblers
https://www.benefitsguide.co.uk/stat...20or%20credits.

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Originally Posted by pipster

Where are as Labour dont give two hoots about the OAPs as their core is the younger / wokey type ?

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That might be your conclusion but it's not mine

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Originally Posted by Alan Lung

WTF?? The state pension is not a benefit, it's been paid for by the recipient over their working life.

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I think it is still defined as a benefit by the government.

Most people won't have paid enough NI to cover even a few years of state pension, it is a ponzi that current working age people pay for.

Ironically the current pensioners were quite happy for the older generations (their parents and grandparents) to die in poverty and freeze to death when they were the ones contributing to the system rather than taking from it. Now the shoe is on the other foot and it's envy to suggest that if we are looking to target cuts then maybe the triple lock is something to take a second glance at

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I think it is still defined as a benefit by the government.

Most people won't have paid enough NI to cover even a few years of state pension, it is a ponzi that current working age people pay for.

Ironically the current pensioners were quite happy for the older generations (their parents and grandparents) to die in poverty and freeze to death when they were the ones contributing to the system rather than taking from it. Now the shoe is on the other foot and it's envy to suggest that if we are looking to target cuts then maybe the triple lock is something to take a second glance at

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It is a benefit but subject to a minimum number of years contributions having being made. However, someone could have spent their entire life unemployed and still have qualified for the State Pension because the government will have made those contributions on the claimant's behalf.

Like someone pointed out elsewhere in the thread the UK's state pension provision is woefully short compared to European equivalent pensions. The introduction of the Triple Lock was an attempt to address pensioner poverty but it only serves to provide one huge chunk of pensioners with more than they'll ever need which means it ends up in the pockets of their offspring, while being grossly insufficient to meet the basic needs of the other great chunk of pensioners. It's a blunt instrument which is unsustainable for much longer.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I think it is still defined as a benefit by the government.

Most people won't have paid enough NI to cover even a few years of state pension, it is a ponzi that current working age people pay for.

Ironically the current pensioners were quite happy for the older generations (their parents and grandparents) to die in poverty and freeze to death when they were the ones contributing to the system rather than taking from it. Now the shoe is on the other foot and it's envy to suggest that if we are looking to target cuts then maybe the triple lock is something to take a second glance at

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but a quarter of all pensioners have retired with enough cash to get a helicopter to the post office on a Thursday , paying loads of NI , a 'ponzi' if you like ,that was always the point , you pay for the generation that has retired, but to be fair i laffed like f@@@ watching my parents freeze to death.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

The introduction of the Triple Lock was an attempt to address pensioner poverty but it only serves to provide one huge chunk of pensioners with more than they'll ever need which means it ends up in the pockets of their offspring

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Or in the pockets of care home businesses.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

Pensions i doubt will ever be means tested, Those who make the decisions do very nicely, however, the politics of envy shine in this fred, they despise those who just get up in the morning go to work and get paid for the effort, they have never been the same since Dustbin got obliterated by Johnson and lost their promise of free WIFI.

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Working people having in effect pay cuts , some relying on food banks while the rich laugh at the clowns in "red wall" areas who voted them in.

The public voted in this govt and are living with the consequences.

But but Jeremy Corbyn went well.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Working people having in effect pay cuts , some relying on food banks while the rich laugh at the clowns in "red wall" areas who voted them in.

The public voted in this govt and are living with the consequences.

But but Jeremy Corbyn went well.

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I think the same about people in Wales moaning about drakeford, 20mph zones, traffic zones that cause more air pollution, no more roads, an "airport" that has bigger all flights etc - people voted for Labour so enjoy your moaning.

As for triple lock - yes it needs amending. Corbyn wasnt the answer (too left wing), Starmer isnt the answer either - so not sure where that leaves the socialists. Probably a govt in waiting - waiting to stuff things up again - like most Govt's before it. Blair / Brown - boom and bust - yeah cant wait for that (I did ok out of those policies)

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Originally Posted by pipster

I think the same about people in Wales moaning about drakeford, 20mph zones, traffic zones that cause more air pollution, no more roads, an "airport" that has bigger all flights etc - people voted for Labour so enjoy your moaning.

As for triple lock - yes it needs amending. Corbyn wasnt the answer (too left wing), Starmer isnt the answer either - so not sure where that leaves the socialists. Probably a govt in waiting - waiting to stuff things up again - like most Govt's before it. Blair / Brown - boom and bust - yeah cant wait for that (I did ok out of those policies)

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Its a nightmare. The Tories have wrecked the economy driving people to food banks , 3 PMs a cost of living crisis and the Welsh Govt wont let you drive as fast as you want to through residential areas. Shocking.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

This isn't a morality issue. It's not the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

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Thank you for your in-depth critical analysis :hehe:

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Originally Posted by + the native hipster

but a quarter of all pensioners have retired with enough cash to get a helicopter to the post office on a Thursday , paying loads of NI , a 'ponzi' if you like ,that was always the point , you pay for the generation that has retired, but to be fair i laffed like f@@@ watching my parents freeze to death.

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Are you alright? You are cutting the figure of somebody who is struggling with something. I am not trying to piss anybody off with this thread, it's simply a chat about allocation of resources.

It's actually going to be 8.5% rather than 8%

So that is extra billion or so (on top of the 15 billion already accounted for by the 8% estimated rise) for people in work to find.

Turns out we are the magic money tree.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Thank you for your in-depth critical analysis :hehe:

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Conveniently ignored the responses that did question what you were saying though..

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Working people having in effect pay cuts , some relying on food banks while the rich laugh at the clowns in "red wall" areas who voted them in.

The public voted in this govt and are living with the consequences.

But but Jeremy Corbyn went well.

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Have you taken the time to see what is happening in other countries?

It rather dismisses your view that everything is the fault of the govt (convenient that).

If you can't even diagnose the problem properly you will never solve it

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Its a nightmare. The Tories have wrecked the economy driving people to food banks , 3 PMs a cost of living crisis and the Welsh Govt wont let you drive as fast as you want to through residential areas. Shocking.

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UK economy is growing faster than most of our peers, unemployment is lower and wages rising faster. Every country has food banks too. Most economic and social data is far worse here in Wales where people like you say we have been 'protected' from the Tories. Some protection! Lower wages and more poverty! Brilliant!

That's why the 20mph stuff pisses people off a lot of the time. Cos the WG are good are pissing around with things like that, but pretty dreadful at the big important things.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Its a nightmare. The Tories have wrecked the economy driving people to food banks , 3 PMs a cost of living crisis and the Welsh Govt wont let you drive as fast as you want to through residential areas. Shocking.

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Interesting re food banks - in France (approx same population as UK) they were introduced 14 years before UK. France started them in 1984 - UK was 1997 , The French process about 4 times as much through food banks as the UK does - they do have a legal requirement that supermarkets donate food - but that food is still used by people in need.
In France it is seen as a good socialist type thing to do , in the UK it is a stigma used to label poor people.

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Originally Posted by pipster

Interesting re food banks - in France (approx same population as UK) they were introduced 14 years before UK. France started them in 1984 - UK was 1997 , The French process about 4 times as much through food banks as the UK does - they do have a legal requirement that supermarkets donate food - but that food is still used by people in need.
In France it is seen as a good socialist type thing to do , in the UK it is a stigma used to label poor people.

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Nice one Pipster, but it can't be correct because the Tories don't even stand for election in France so how could they possibly have created food banks there?

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Originally Posted by pipster

Interesting re food banks - in France (approx same population as UK) they were introduced 14 years before UK. France started them in 1984 - UK was 1997 , The French process about 4 times as much through food banks as the UK does - they do have a legal requirement that supermarkets donate food - but that food is still used by people in need.
In France it is seen as a good socialist type thing to do , in the UK it is a stigma used to label poor people.

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I assume its Tories doing the labelling because the people I know who donate to or volunteer at local food banks most certainly don't do it to stigmatise or belittle vulnerable people

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

UK economy is growing faster than most of our peers, unemployment is lower and wages rising faster. Every country has food banks too. Most economic and social data is far worse here in Wales where people like you say we have been 'protected' from the Tories. Some protection! Lower wages and more poverty! Brilliant!

That's why the 20mph stuff pisses people off a lot of the time. Cos the WG are good are pissing around with things like that, but pretty dreadful at the big important things.

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The bloke who isn't a raving tory has turned up to defend the tory government and belittle the Welsh Labour government

Again ......

Well that's a surprise

But he's not a raving tory and is politically neutral

Honest

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The bloke who isn't a raving tory has turned up to defend the tory government and belittle the Welsh Labour government

Again ......

Well that's a surprise

But he's not a raving tory and is politically neutral

Honest

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Just stating facts Sludge
They aren't owned by any party.

Why would you support things that aren't true?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Thank you for your in-depth critical analysis :hehe:

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My pleasure! It makes sense to adapt the response to alternative audience types 😂

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Just stating facts Sludge
They aren't owned by any party.

Why would you support things that aren't true?

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You have done that everytime you have voted conservative especially during the last 13 years

And despite pretending to be nuanced you will do it again and prop them up and legitimise them again

You are using the possibility of a tiny improvement in the economy recently to justify your biased support of the conservatives and write off the last decade as the fault of brexit , covid or Ukraine

Its incredibly tedious but even if you get battered at the next election you will still be at it with your yeah but no but what about etc etc

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Conveniently ignored the responses that did question what you were saying though..

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I read them with interest, old fruit. I'm always happy to take on board the thoughts, perspective and points of other posters.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

My pleasure! It makes sense to adapt the response to alternative audience types ��

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You have done that everytime you have voted conservative especially during the last 13 years

And despite pretending to be nuanced you will do it again and prop them up and legitimise them again

You are using the possibility of a tiny improvement in the economy recently to justify your biased support of the conservatives and write off the last decade as the fault of brexit , covid or Ukraine

Its incredibly tedious but even if you get battered at the next election you will still be at it with your yeah but no but what about etc etc

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Nah, I'm just saying, you and others say things that patently are incorrect.

When you do stuff like that, it's inevitable that people will push back

If someone was on here saying that Welsh Labour had created food banks in Wales I'd be saying the same, cos that's also bollocks.

What's frustrating is that if you actually wanted to solve these issues (and no one doubts that they are issues) then you would be interested in properly diagnosing them. But you arent.

You imply a centre-left govt will fix things but we have had one of those here for 24 years and if anything poverty is worse here. They also have them in lots of places around Europe and food banks and economic stagnation, unemployment, inflation and all the rest of it exist there too.

So quite clearly the cause of these issues lies elsewhere. We all know it, it's just lazy, boring and actually kinda selfish to blame the govt alone. You get a dopamine hit for slagging off the Tories online but in practice not a single problem has been solved.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Nah, I'm just saying, you and others say things that patently are incorrect.

When you do stuff like that, it's inevitable that people will push back

If someone was on here saying that Welsh Labour had created food banks in Wales I'd be saying the same, cos that's also bollocks.

What's frustrating is that if you actually wanted to solve these issues (and no one doubts that they are issues) then you would be interested in properly diagnosing them. But you arent.

You imply a centre-left govt will fix things but we have had one of those here for 24 years and if anything poverty is worse here. They also have them in lots of places around Europe and food banks and economic stagnation, unemployment, inflation and all the rest of it exist there too.

So quite clearly the cause of these issues lies elsewhere. We all know it, it's just lazy, boring and actually kinda selfish to blame the govt alone. You get a dopamine hit for slagging off the Tories online but in practice not a single problem has been solved.

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A tory calling left of centre voters selfish

That's a classic

This has turned into a comedy act and you are on stage , hovering above a trap door

Well lets be safe in tegh knowledge that her supreme highness hath spoken.

In a desperate bid to get power now the so called left are now reversing their Corbyn ideals now we have Tory Lite appeal policies bin the shape , No Guarantees On Triple Lock , Stronger Immigration Controls , NHS cannot just hae dosh thrown at it ( ie privatise ) no wealth taxes , woman born with penis or vhginas , god knows which one , as the fence they sit on keeps crumbling :

Evil Tories have allowed pay to rise 8.5 per cent in 3 months to July, which results on state pension will rise by the same amount in April thanks to the Tory Left Lock policy ,inflation coming down, meanwhile as pensioners get wealthy the young cant afford to buy a house because as wages /pensions grow Bank of England raises interest rates , yey perfect storm .

Truss was right cut taxes get folk spending bit like Germany who have just announced a similar tax cut as Truss ""Germany agrees 32 bln euro tax cuts to give economy 'big boost' and ""

Now we cant criticise Germans or Europe as they are shining beacon of hope as many have spouted over the years ..

Lets leave Europe ?? Oh hang on

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...is-2022-08-23/
Recession almost certain
Germany and Italy among hardest hit
Consumers' purse drained by record high inflation
Strong labour market offers hope of short recession
Energy transition may boost resilience in long run

So the UK does have resilience where is the downfall ??

I will admit it wasn't a great thread to start with but it has been completely ruined by the same old people now.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

A tory calling left of centre voters selfish

That's a classic

This has turned into a comedy act and you are on stage , hovering above a trap door

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As I said Sludge, people just keep saying things that aren't true and use it to blame the govt for everything, which is pretty repetitive, gets us no closer to the truth and yeah, tbh I do find it a bit selfish cos it's rarely people at the sharp end saying it. It's like a discussion on misbehaving kids and all you do is shout about blaming the parents ad inifinitum. Things are normally far more complex than people make out.

Clearly the triple lock is not an easy decision. Quite clearly good banks aren't wholly caused by the UK govt because they exist everywhere. It's just daft stuff and these threads always get dragged down to that Disney level of goodies and baddies.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Well lets be safe in tegh knowledge that her supreme highness hath spoken.

In a desperate bid to get power now the so called left are now reversing their Corbyn ideals now we have Tory Lite appeal policies bin the shape , No Guarantees On Triple Lock , Stronger Immigration Controls , NHS cannot just hae dosh thrown at it ( ie privatise ) no wealth taxes , woman born with penis or vhginas , god knows which one , as the fence they sit on keeps crumbling :

Evil Tories have allowed pay to rise 8.5 per cent in 3 months to July, which results on state pension will rise by the same amount in April thanks to the Tory Left Lock policy ,inflation coming down, meanwhile as pensioners get wealthy the young cant afford to buy a house because as wages /pensions grow Bank of England raises interest rates , yey perfect storm .

Truss was right cut taxes get folk spending bit like Germany who have just announced a similar tax cut as Truss ""Germany agrees 32 bln euro tax cuts to give economy 'big boost' and ""

Now we cant criticise Germans or Europe as they are shining beacon of hope as many have spouted over the years ..

Lets leave Europe ?? Oh hang on

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...is-2022-08-23/
Recession almost certain
Germany and Italy among hardest hit
Consumers' purse drained by record high inflation
Strong labour market offers hope of short recession
Energy transition may boost resilience in long run

So the UK does have resilience where is the downfall ??

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Whew!

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

The politics of justice! I know loads of pensioners worth well over 1 mill. Let's not kill the old but let's level up.

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Define 'loads'

100? 200? 1000?

And does that 1 million include the value of their house?

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Define 'loads'

100? 200? 1000?

And does that 1 million include the value of their house?

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Hasnt it been claimed there are 3 million pensioners worth over a million in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Hasnt it been claimed there are 3 million pensioners worth over a million in the UK.

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Yes that was the finding 3-4 years ago - pension pot, savings etc plus value of property:

https://www.if.org.uk/wp-content/upl...ease_FINAL.pdf

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Yes that was the finding 3-4 years ago - pension pot, savings etc plus value of property:

https://www.if.org.uk/wp-content/upl...ease_FINAL.pdf

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In many, probably most cases, the vast bulk of that is in the property value.

Not going to be able to buy much extra food or energy without selling the house!!!

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

In many, probably most cases, the vast bulk of that is in the property value.

Not going to be able to buy much extra food or energy without selling the house!!!

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It's an interesting conundrum though because when you say to somebody with a large amount of property wealth that house prices need to come down they look at you like you are a mental commy here to steal their hard earned money, so they like to assume it as wealth in most circumstances but not when it affects their benefit payment.

It's definitely a difficult one because there will be a handful of people who fit into your category above but if you live in a house worth 500k-1mil and wouldn't be able to afford basic necessities without triple lock increase in pension then you have ****ed up somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

It's an interesting conundrum though because when you say to somebody with a large amount of property wealth that house prices need to come down they look at you like you are a mental commy here to steal their hard earned money, so they like to assume it as wealth in most circumstances but not when it affects their benefit payment.

It's definitely a difficult one because there will be a handful of people who fit into your category above but if you live in a house worth 500k-1mil and wouldn't be able to afford basic necessities without triple lock increase in pension then you have ****ed up somewhere.

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More than a handful I would suggest.

Even my ex council house in Llanishen means i am now worth over £300,000 on paper. in London i would be worth a million in the same sort of area. There must surely be many,many more like me.

And I worked for the Civil Service, BT and (for a short while) the health service so i get a decent pension. There must be many pensioners who get no private pension (or a poor one) for whom the triple lock is essential..

i don't think they need to have, as you put it ****ed up somewhere, just not being as fortunate as many like me have been.

9or a

Capital rich, revenue poor has been a thing for almost a century. Although equity release has grown in recent times - which reduces the problem a bit, whilst making a new group of financial advisors very happy and wealthy themselves!

The latest twist on it is: capital rich with a big and growing charge against the property value to fund private care services.

There must be hundreds of thousands of elderly people with a small pension but a property somewhere, where the value is reducing by £35-60k per year to pay off accumulated charges by the private care sector.

It is a crazy mess of a system with government doing little but fiddling at the edges.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Define 'loads'

100? 200? 1000?

And does that 1 million include the value of their house?

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Over 10,000 and yes

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

In many, probably most cases, the vast bulk of that is in the property value.

Not going to be able to buy much extra food or energy without selling the house!!!

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In which case, sell the house and downsize....simples!!!