Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Fair enough, i'm not going to argue over it. In the latest census it says that those Cardiff's population consists of 3.8% Black population in an overall population of 362,000 people. That would include those who are African. Whoever is closest, i don't consider it a large number.
Well Cardiff clearly doesn't have a Caribbean population like some boroughs in London or Birmingham but what do you consider significant or large etc ?
If it didn't have a sizeable Caribbean community why would it have afro Caribbean barbers and hairdressers and restaurants ?
The difference between Cardiffs Caribbean community is that it doesn't have a noticeable core like St Paul's or Handsworth
That's because the demolition of the Butetown area led to the community being spread all over Cardiff to Ely , Splott , Llanrumney etc
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Something to consider is that Girls organized football is pretty new. It could be that in the initial stages of the game in the UK that the girls who started out getting involved in the game were, are predominantly white lower middle class bracket with parents who have a little bit more money, time, social mobility etc. The men's game was predominantly white until the late eighties, so look how long men's football took to evolve.
When something new kicks in like female football at an organized level, then it's always almost going to be kids from more affluent backgrounds who carry on in the game as they generally have a better support network.
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at when I said about opportunities above, but you've explained it much better.
If England wants to be the best they can, they need to have as big a pool as possible, which means reaching all the potential talent. The photo suggests either they're not doing that, or all the talent happens to be white. That's what I conclude when I saw the photo, not that arsenal must be racist and hate black women. There's clearly something stopping them from being there.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Well Cardiff clearly doesn't have a Caribbean population like some boroughs in London or Birmingham but what do you consider significant or large etc ?
If it didn't have a sizeable Caribbean community why would it have afro Caribbean barbers and hairdressers and restaurants ?
The difference between Cardiffs Caribbean community is that it doesn't have a noticeable core like St Paul's or Handsworth
That's because the demolition of the Butetown area led to the community being spread all over Cardiff to Ely , Splott , Llanrumney etc
According to statistics that are readily available to read online, there's around 5000 people in Cardiff of Afro Caribbean heritage, and that includes 2nd 3rd generation. I have worked the areas you have highlighted every day for 6 years, sometimes visiting up to 12 properties per day. The three you mention are predominantly white. Splott, Adamsdown, Clifton st area is/has quite a strong African community developing. There are more people from African heritage than there is Caribbean in Cardiff.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I agree, many do. But I think the BBC is one of the worst culprits and they have a broader responsibility. They routinely promote these stories at the expense of other things and as I say, I think it's driving wedges between people and creating an image of a society in constant racial conflict, which I don't think is true. I think it's making society more divided
bollocks.
the BBC are reporting a story that may be considered newsworthy. They've not offered an opinion, nor do they ever.
Quote:
In 2021 it was estimated that the proportion of black, Asian and minority players in the Women's Super League was between 10 and 15%.
No I have no idea what the UK stat is for non white, but I'd hazard a guess its not an order of magnitude different from what we see in the league.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
i would say that it's a good thing that people are wondering why there are no black faces in a team photo of a huge football club situated in arguably one of the most diverse boroughs in the most diverse City on Earth.
fixed your post
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
None of that, just find it very very strange that there isn't one player of colour in that team photo. It's not a common sight these days.
^^^ this
As Jon1959 said at the outset, there may be a perfectly plausible reason why, but in this day and age, you're more likely to find rocking horse shit.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
It does suggest that there's something wrong somewhere along the line; whether it's subconscious bias in recruitment, or opportunities to play and train are not the same for everyone, or something else.
It doesn't mean that people at the top are cruel racists and this was done deliberately, but there must be a kink in the system somewhere.
Lardy comes in with the common sense, saying it like it is.
I doubt there is any thing Machiavellian going on, we just need to do more to get to the grass roots, so everyone has a chance
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
I wouldn't say it's going too far. The photo perhaps suggests one way the top level of women's game can continue to develop and improve in the future. Through broader representation, like the trajectory seen in the men's game over time. Overall there is around 45% BAME representation in the EPL compared to around 10% in the WSL at present. Increasing diversity is an opportunity for women's football.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
What do you think they get put on websites without editors say so?! It's not Facebook
It's a story though isn't it? We're all talking about it. Why wouldn't the BBC put something that will become a talking point on their website? It wasn't exactly the top story and it wasn't being sensationalized. It's the editorial staff's job to fill their website with content.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
It does suggest that there's something wrong somewhere along the line; whether it's subconscious bias in recruitment, or opportunities to play and train are not the same for everyone, or something else.
It doesn't mean that people at the top are cruel racists and this was done deliberately, but there must be a kink in the system somewhere.
I just had a look at the Cardiff City Women team page - and there are 21 mug shots, all white. A major difference from the diversity of the mens' team pages - first team, u21s and u18s. And club clips of the Foundation at work often show mixed communities involved.
It may be (as Tuerto suggested) a reflection of the relative under-development of the women's game, or the way the club is identifying talent (in the summer they seemed to be looking at the best players from other clubs in the league - which may be a self-reinforcing strategy for maintaining the squad profile), or maybe some other reasonable explanation. Cardiff and South Wales is not as diverse as London (few places are) but as with Arsenal it does throw up some legitimate questions about opportunities.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
According to statistics that are readily available to read online, there's around 5000 people in Cardiff of Afro Caribbean heritage, and that includes 2nd 3rd generation. I have worked the areas you have highlighted every day for 6 years, sometimes visiting up to 12 properties per day. The three you mention are predominantly white. Splott, Adamsdown, Clifton st area is/has quite a strong African community developing. There are more people from African heritage than there is Caribbean in Cardiff.
That doesn't mean anything
Cardiff Council did a report that is available which shows the carribean community in Cardiff is very much under represented in official statistics , its online
Predominantly white doesn't mean there isn't a sizeable community of black , carribean or other groups it just means the majority are white
Even in Butetown the biggest ethnic group is white
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Well Cardiff clearly doesn't have a Caribbean population like some boroughs in London or Birmingham but what do you consider significant or large etc ?
If it didn't have a sizeable Caribbean community why would it have afro Caribbean barbers and hairdressers and restaurants ?
The difference between Cardiffs Caribbean community is that it doesn't have a noticeable core like St Paul's or Handsworth
That's because the demolition of the Butetown area led to the community being spread all over Cardiff to Ely , Splott , Llanrumney etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
That doesn't mean anything
Cardiff Council did a report that is available which shows the carribean community in Cardiff is very much under represented in official statistics , its online
Predominantly white doesn't mean there isn't a sizeable community of black , carribean or other groups it just means the majority are white
Even in Butetown the biggest ethnic group is white
Ok, you know better than me. How many people of Caribbean heritage live in Cardiff. All I can do is offer statistics compiled by Government bodies, which match up with what I have said, and give anecdotal evidence in terms of my work, experience and the fact that I have lived in the city for most of my life. You're not really producing any evidence, just giving your opinion and dismissing everything I have said. I can't do links as I am shit with a computer and phone. If you can do them then link the evidence that you have that says I am wrong, based on statistical evidence and I'll say that I was wrong. It's not a problem for me.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at when I said about opportunities above, but you've explained it much better.
If England wants to be the best they can, they need to have as big a pool as possible, which means reaching all the potential talent. The photo suggests either they're not doing that, or all the talent happens to be white. That's what I conclude when I saw the photo, not that arsenal must be racist and hate black women. There's clearly something stopping them from being there.
Agreed, I was trying to say the same too, diversity will follow as it becomes more mainstream for all young girls growing up.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Ok, you know better than me. How many people of Caribbean heritage live in Cardiff. All I can do is offer statistics compiled by Government bodies, which match up with what I have said, and give anecdotal evidence in terms of my work, experience and the fact that I have lived in the city for most of my life. You're not really producing any evidence, just giving your opinion and dismissing everything I have said. I can't do links as I am shit with a computer and phone. If you can do them then link the evidence that you have that says I am wrong, based on statistical evidence and I'll say that I was wrong. It's not a problem for me.
Well clearly I do
It's clearly a problem for you evidenced by your arsey little response
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations
just in case you don't know what it means
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I just had a look at the Cardiff City Women team page - and there are 21 mug shots, all white. A major difference from the diversity of the mens' team pages - first team, u21s and u18s. And club clips of the Foundation at work often show mixed communities involved.
It may be (as Tuerto suggested) a reflection of the relative under-development of the women's game, or the way the club is identifying talent (in the summer they seemed to be looking at the best players from other clubs in the league - which may be a self-reinforcing strategy for maintaining the squad profile), or maybe some other reasonable explanation. Cardiff and South Wales is not as diverse as London (few places are) but as with Arsenal it does throw up some legitimate questions about opportunities.
There's still a lot of issues with facilities for womens grassroots football, particularly for those with certain religious beliefs.
Changing rooms they use and shower areas are the ones that men use, all showering together and its off putting for many women.
There is a need for individual cubicles etc for changing and showering and that costs clubs money to invest.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
I don’t believe it’s diversity going too far - it appears it gone the other way but whether it’s unintentional or whether somethings going wrong in the recruitment process is the question.
They have a Swedish manager and have done for the past few years. 3 of the first team players are from Sweden. They have a mix of players from Denmark, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Norway, England, Scotland, Republic of Ireland, Australia, Spain, Canada, USA and Brazil. It would suggest diversity is there when it comes to players from different countries but in terms of black players and also players from Asia there’s none. If you look across the entire women’s super league and championship it’s also an issue but in the men’s game it’s doesn’t appear to be a problem for many of the top clubs. The subject has also been raised with the England women’s squad too but the manager can only pick the best players from those who she has access to.
I would think and hope that it will be something that will improve opportunity wise over the next few years with many opportunities reaching girls from different backgrounds. That said in the past Arsenal women have had many black players in the squad before the rise in the women’s game.
Whilst on the subject of women’s football I’ve been watching them for the past few years and I absolutely love it. Once you get into it and you have your favourite club and you get to know who’s who it’s really great fun. There are rivalries but not on the same level but for example Arsenal women this season have has massive attendances. 55k on their first match and I think it was 35k on their 2nd home match. Obviously when they don’t play at the Emirates stadium they can’t get those crowds as the capacity of Meadow Park is on 5k odd but they always sell out. I think it’s only a matter of time before the top clubs share the men’s stadium full time.
I would recommend it to anyone - give it a go. Many matches for the top teams are also on tv for example BBC or ITv and some are on Sky. The Lionesses (England women) are playing this Friday evening live on ITV4 and the again Tues in the nations league. Whether they win or not is another thing but the gap has closed a lot now so you don’t get the massive score lines as much - there’s a lot of competition out there.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Its turning folk into robots .
The younger generation will grow up frightened to have the strength to speak out , they will fear being cancelled or ignored .
My thoughts are the more mistakes you make the quicker you learn by them .
Classic example saying you don't agree with folk coming in on boats or I don't support BLM views and actions ,does not make you a racist
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Once a blue,always a blue
I don’t believe it’s diversity going too far - it appears it gone the other way but whether it’s unintentional or whether somethings going wrong in the recruitment process is the question.
They have a Swedish manager and have done for the past few years. 3 of the first team players are from Sweden. They have a mix of players from Denmark, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Norway, England, Scotland, Republic of Ireland, Australia, Spain, Canada, USA and Brazil. It would suggest diversity is there when it comes to players from different countries but in terms of black players and also players from Asia there’s none. If you look across the entire women’s super league and championship it’s also an issue but in the men’s game it’s doesn’t appear to be a problem for many of the top clubs. The subject has also been raised with the England women’s squad too but the manager can only pick the best players from those who she has access to.
I would think and hope that it will be something that will improve opportunity wise over the next few years with many opportunities reaching girls from different backgrounds. That said in the past Arsenal women have had many black players in the squad before the rise in the women’s game.
Whilst on the subject of women’s football I’ve been watching them for the past few years and I absolutely love it. Once you get into it and you have your favourite club and you get to know who’s who it’s really great fun. There are rivalries but not on the same level but for example Arsenal women this season have has massive attendances. 55k on their first match and I think it was 35k on their 2nd home match. Obviously when they don’t play at the Emirates stadium they can’t get those crowds as the capacity of Meadow Park is on 5k odd but they always sell out. I think it’s only a matter of time before the top clubs share the men’s stadium full time.
I would recommend it to anyone - give it a go. Many matches for the top teams are also on tv for example BBC or ITv and some are on Sky. The Lionesses (England women) are playing this Friday evening live on ITV4 and the again Tues in the nations league. Whether they win or not is another thing but the gap has closed a lot now so you don’t get the massive score lines as much - there’s a lot of competition out there.
Glad someone has acknowledged my point that Arsenal had a representation of black players a decade and more ago. This is the thing that makes that photo something of a concern and rather debunks the theory that the women's game is struggling to keep up with representation for all colours and creeds in light of the huge rise in popularity of the women's game in recent years.
A search for the percentage of BAME players in the WSL brought back the following quote;-
"During the 2021-22 season, the Professional Footballers' Association (PFA), the trade union for English professional players, estimated that around 10 per cent of players in the top-flight Women's Super League (WSL) were from Black, Asian or minority ethnic (BAME) backgrounds."
According to the Szymanski Report published this year.
"This is against a background, highlighted in our 2022 report, where 43% of Premier League and 34% of Championship players are Black."
So, it would appear that while the WSL is light years ahead of the Premier League in acknowledging and accepting sexual diversity, the same is not wholly true when it comes to racial diversity (the Premier League and EPL still tend to have a problem with black managers mind). It would seem therefore that the line about the WSL struggling to keep pace with it's growth has some truth to it, but I'd also say that by rights there should be two or three non white faces in that team picture even under the lower BAME rates of their league and, when you think of the area they represent, it should really be higher still - given the figures, it's hardly surprising that questions are being asked.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Its turning folk into robots .
The younger generation will grow up frightened to have the strength to speak out , they will fear being cancelled or ignored .
My thoughts are the more mistakes you make the quicker you learn by them .
Classic example saying you don't agree with folk coming in on boats or I don't support BLM views and actions ,does not make you a racist
Nonsense, the young generation stands up for themselves, and more importantly each other, more than other generations, certainly more than mine.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Because sometimes that will happen. Arsenal's men's team has a real lack of white English players. That will also happen. Cardiff City doesn't represent the city of Cardiff at all.
The Great Britain men's basketnball team has no white players.
You can't go around scrutinizing these things too much. Or you can, and you can dog whistle about racism but as I say, I think you'll be contributing towards driving society apart more and merely emphasising that race and skin colour is all that matters.
I feel a bit detached from ccfc when they have no local/welsh players. Generic stadium, championship journeymen from hounslow or milton keynes, sullen english manager, an lwner who thinks we are man utd…. As a “stakeholder” in the club , there has been little over the last decade that has made me feel like this is MY club.<< that’s bad.
Having an all-brown team is not the same as having an all-white cnts team due to historical inequalities. It make you look like a simpleton when you compare like for like.
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Its turning folk into robots .
The younger generation will grow up frightened to have the strength to speak out , they will fear being cancelled or ignored .
My thoughts are the more mistakes you make the quicker you learn by them .
Classic example saying you don't agree with folk coming in on boats or I don't support BLM views and actions ,does not make you a racist
The youngsters of today are far more tolerant and open minded than you
The people who moan and go on and on about woke are overwhelmingly white , old and heterosexual
You say you are British these days they throw you in jail !
Re: Diversity - Is it going too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Its turning folk into robots .
The younger generation will grow up frightened to have the strength to speak out , they will fear being cancelled or ignored .
My thoughts are the more mistakes you make the quicker you learn by them .
Classic example saying you don't agree with folk coming in on boats or I don't support BLM views and actions ,does not make you a racist
The thing is minority groups of people or people who were and are still treated differently because of who they are, who they are attracted to, the colour of their skin etc. have had enough and found the strength to push back. This is what has happened. It’s ok if you (and I don’t know mean you personally) were born straight ,white and cis (cis - not transgender) because you haven’t faced the extremely challenging struggle growing up. Ok you may have struggled in other ways for example grew up in poverty or family issues etc but when you’ve experienced years of a vast number of challenges as a result growing up in a society where you are treated differently there becomes a time when things boil over and you have just had enough. You then make the demands for changes so this can’t happen anymore or at least reduces it. It’s very easy to say something like people are too sensitive to say something but if you have walked in the other persons shoes - life is far worse vs being worried about saying the wrong thing.
To be honest most times people don’t have an issue with saying something by mistake aslong as it wasn’t done in a deliberate derogatory way. I mean how easy is it to just say oops I actually meant this or sorry I got that wrong and move on. Much easier than facing the daily challenges because you are seen as different which let’s face it - society sees as wrong. Just because someone is in a minority it doesn’t mean you are wrong.
