You serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
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You serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
Seeing a player "every other Saturday" is a lot more time than what a scout would spend on recommending a player to the club he scouts for, surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
I would agree with him. Overall, fans are good judges of players they watch week after week. if anyone on here owned a football club then none of them would have paid 8 million for Zohore, nor even 2 million. West Brom did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
But you can't say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
I mean, us football fans just pay for a ticket, turn up to watch, but have no knowledge of the game whatsoever, because we didn't play professional football, apparently.
The fans were unanimous in their feelings about the likes of Gary Madine, and even recently the 'keeper we just sent back to Arsenal (perhaps Man City will put an offer in for him).
I'd have thought they'd spend hours watching footage that we don't have access to and observe a lot more than every other week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five
They'd also know exactly what type of player a coach wants to fit into his system, plus would have an idea on the personality of the player from industry contacts.
Players and coaches at a professional level see the game differently than casual fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five
More to the point, they'll be able to spot things about a player than the average fan would have no idea about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
Fans aren't far wrong for the best part. We may not see or 'get' certain intricacies on occasion, but thankfully, football is a simple game, and we as fans can see what is in front of us for the best part. It's snobbery, and the rise of 24 hr football punditry bullshit seems to have suckered in plenty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five
Which was my next post. Players and coaches at a pro level see the game differently to casual fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
I'm friends with pro rugby coaches and ex Welsh internationals. I've coached rugby and football and the insights they give you is such an eye opener.
It's night and day.
That is true, they will see intricacies, movement, and intelligence. those things are harder to spot. although if those things don't come off for a considerable amount of time, then that player is going to look a bit shit, and fans can see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
EDIT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
I'm out.
I agree that managers or scouts will obviously have more knowledge but I’m talking that the average match going fan will have a good read on a player (you have extreme views from a certain amount of course) but a lot of fans will tend to be on the money with a player they have watched for 3 years straight. Occasionally a player will have a new lease of life somewhere else and go against what has been said, but the first thing I normally do when we have signed someone is have a look at what the fans think. If they are collectively rejoicing that he is leaving then it isn’t normally a good thing.
The striker for example has been widely criticised but Bristol city fans love him, with a caveat that he could be a bit poor at times but was a firm fan favourite for his attitude and moments of quality. Take it with less importance than Turnbull as he was at Bristol a few years ago now but it sounds like we’re getting a good character and good player in.
It is not all doom and gloom with turnbull either, he is apparently good on the ball and can score a goal from midfield. Just slow and lazy is a big worry when going into our midfield that is already like that and you need to press in midfield to have a chance these days
Then why did our professional coaching staff decide, after watching hours of footage that we didn't have access to, that Runnarson would be a good fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
Particularly when the Arsenal fans were saying he's one of the worst 'keepers they'd ever seen? (I don't have a vendetta against Runnarson btw, it's just fresh in the mind that's all)
I beg to differ, give me an example then :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
Amen!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
Yeah I think Harry is getting a bit carried away, for the most part analysts and scouts are normal football people and they’re pretty low entry level jobs. There will be hundreds of “scouts” knocking around the lower leagues who aren’t paid much money, travel to numerous games and get very little reward for it. A lot of people could get into that line of work it’s just so competitive in terms of numbers that many rarely doQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five
Surely there lies the difference? I've seen hundreds of City games but I wouldn't consider myself a "football person", but a fan. Massive difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
No they're not. They think they're good or shit. Most of them are biased in one way or another. How many fans take an objective view of a player with an inside knowledge of how the game is played?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
I think if you wanted to become a lower league scout or analyst and were willing to put the hours in and have a half decent understanding of the game then you’d be the same. I think you’re putting them all on a pedestal when in reality that is the best of the best at the top level, the lower leagues is just normal people half tuned into football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Look at punditry as an example, plucking two names out of thin air but are you telling me Martin Keown and Lee Dixon regularly see things we don’t and greatly enhance our experience by sharing their expertise?
Fair enough, but all a lot of these people have done is sat in on courses, done their badges, been told what to look for, pretty much like any job. You could do that, in fact plenty of people on here could do it. We're not talking about the people in football who are on a different level in terms of how they see players now and in five years time. That's serious shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
I'm not putting scouts on a pedestal, I think your average fan has less of a clue than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
Regarding pundits, I guess it depends on what you are after. During a game there's no time for any detailed analysis, but when time allows I reckon the likes of Keown and Dixon would destroy most fans with their knowledge.
Massive generalising there Eric. Overall, football supporters can see if a footballer is good, bad or indifferent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Ok, there's 3 options, not 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
You're a scout. Cardiff City are looking for a striker and a centre midfielder. Recommend me two cheap options that are better than we have and explain how both of those would fit in with what we have and would enhance and improve that.
Because they've played, so they can see what a player was trying to do in a certain situation, or when a player hasn't moved a couple of yards to create space etc, ora defender hasn't got across quick enough and all that stuff. As fans, we are looking at players with the ball at feet, we are looking at them in defensive-attacking situations, we are watching what they do with the ball, which is the most important aspect of the game. Franco Baresi had the best movement i have ever seen on a defender, the man was super intelligent. As fans, most of us wouldn't have seen that. He was also a world class player with the ball at his feet. If he hadn't been then all the intelligence and movement in the world wouldn't have meant a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
There are idiotic fans no doubt about it, but you only have to have a chat with someone to work out if they know their stuff or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Is this some kind of role play shit...... :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Just to clarify, are you suggesting many fans would have the knowledge of Keown or Dixon (or other pundits with decades of top flight experience)?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
That is moving the goalposts massively in terms of the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Scouts will obviously have a wider knowledge of other teams and players, it’s their job
:hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
No, I'm just making a point.
I would expect a scout to give a detailed analysis of a player, based on what they see, whether that be live or on video etc. How that player would fit in with the way we play etc.
Yes, most fans know if a player is good, crap or indifferent, but I hardly see a manager going to a scout to ask about a player and having this conversation....
"So, that Sludge Factory guy, what do you make of him?"
"Tackles a lot, keeps telling the centre backs to whack the ball long, then the team loses possession and he tries to win it back"
"I don't care about that, was he good, bad or indifferent?"
Thank feck for that. So we finally acknowledge that scouts have more knowledge than the average fan. Excellent. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
In terms of punditry I don’t think they say anything different to what a clued up fan would say no. Drill down into it in a one on one with them on the performance from Goutas if we both sat there and watched him for 90 minutes tomorrow and they would obviously be able to offer a lot more detailed analysis. But not many scouts are ex playersQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Go watch a few under 18 or under 21 games and you will find yourself talking to a guy who’s at his 20th game of the month and you realise he is just a normal football fan, willing to put in the miles and hours in a lonely job for very little reward. A lot of people could do it
I think you’re confusing a wider knowledge with more knowledgeQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Right, i get what you're saying. My point is that overall (In my opinion) Football fans can pretty much see what is in front of them. We may not be able to see the finer details, but thankfully, football for the best part isn't about the finer details, especially at Championship level. A football fan may be able to see about 80% of a players ability, 20% is beyond most of us. Although 80% on any Exam paper is an 'A' :hehe: :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Have you ever had the chance to drill down into it with one of them? I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
Question for you - Kieffer Moore. How do you think he would have fit into our team? I know what Nathan Blake thinks and he's gone into it in some detail.
Of course it's about the finer details. That's what separates sides who get transfers right on a regular basis to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
So the average fan has more knowledge but in a more limited way. Ok......Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
My cousin is a scout which is why I know what he is paid and the job he does and how difficult it is, but ultimately is a job that anyone (me or you could have done). I also know that he would be the first to admit I would have more of an understanding of Cardiff players than he does, when he has watched us probably 5 or 6 times in the last 12 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
I don’t think Kieffer would’ve fitted into our system unless we were switching to a back 5. Grant is right footed and plays on the left, Bowler offers little width and Tanner cuts inside as left footed playing on the right. Width is a non entity so until that is sorted it won’t matter who we have up front and I wasn’t too disappointed to miss out on him
I don’t think it’s crazy to say a fan who has watched Wintle 50 times in the last 12 months will have more of a read on him than a scout who has watched him 5 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Anyway, early start for Watford tomorrow so bed time for me !
51st time watching wintle !
We agree. I wasn't bothered if we signed him at all. Have a good trip tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub
I agree about Camarasa, some of our fans cling to him because they think it makes them cultured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto