Sala case

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

No I go quite frequently to Nantes with work , there are direct flights to Gatwick . If I recall correctly at the time there was a direct flight to Heathrow with BA but it was early afternoon and the private plane allowed him more time on the Monday and avoided the journey to Wales from Heathrow

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My mistake, it was Cardiff-Paris-Nantes on scheduled flights as reported here: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...eveal-14070625

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

No I go quite frequently to Nantes with work , there are direct flights to Gatwick . If I recall correctly at the time there was a direct flight to Heathrow with BA but it was early afternoon and the private plane allowed him more time on the Monday and avoided the journey to Wales from Heathrow

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Didn’t he want to leave later because he wanted to go to Nantes training ground to say goodbye to his mates?

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Originally Posted by Ninian1962

The case is being held in the Nantes Commercial Court which is to CCFC`s advantage as the judges are businessmen rather than solicitors and the judgement will be based on reasonableness and the balance of probabilities rather than strict legal certainty. For this reason the club utilised the services of independent professional statisticians to give an assessment of the probability of the availability of Sala leading to CCFC avoiding relegation (their evidence has been accepted in court disputes before).
Based on the above and the "probability" assessment , which i think was in the range 44% to 52% the following might apply

1) CCFC win the case and the Court awards damages of 44% of the £100m claim so Nantes` insurers have to pay over £44m or
2) Nantes insurers realise Nantes are likely to lose the case so strongly advise their client to settle out of court for a substantial sum but less than £44m

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Keith, Is it realistically possible that French court will award those sort of figures and have you any idea if insurance would cover? I cannot imagine Nantes have a pot to piss in.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

If you are a business and employ somebody who does something wrong, you are liable for that mistake/the consequences. Is that not a pretty well established convention?

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If I owned a business and someone I employed for a specific purpose completed his job then at a later date he separately organised a doomed flight for an ex-employee then I wouldn’t expect to be liable for anything no?

It is ludicrous what we are doing and absolutely shameful. Nantes have acted poorly as well in their actions in terms of not contributing to the trust fund and chasing money immediately, but that is completely unrelated to what we are going after them for and not at all relevant.

When the dust settles on this, people will look back embarrassed at the stance they took on this.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

From memory City had bought Sala a ticket for a flight from Nantes to Heathrow and were sending a car up to Heathrow to pick him up. if this was the case (can anyone back me up here) he wouldn't have had the hassle of finding his own way from Bristol (as I'm pretty sure he was not flying into that airport). Also it's not much of a problem getting off the plane, queuing for the passport check, and collecting his own luggage. You make that sound like a major chore. Have you ever flown? Also, I fly several times per year and I am yet at 64 years old, to sit next to someone unwashed, either at an airport waiting area to board a flight nor sitting on a plane. The flight was 45 minutes (think) not 27 hours

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I think it was stated that City offered him a commercial flight that evening.
I am trying to paint the picture of a footballer who now has a choice to take an easy, quick private direct flight.
The cost of it isn’t even the consideration as he wouldn’t be paying for it.

Describing the airport routine suggests I have flown before and sat next few smelly and large ones too.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Didn’t he want to leave later because he wanted to go to Nantes training ground to say goodbye to his mates?

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Yes, he did and tied up loose ends, he was making arrangements for someone to look after his dog as well before it could be brought over apparently.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

If I owned a business and someone I employed for a specific purpose completed his job then at a later date he separately organised a doomed flight for an ex-employee then I wouldn’t expect to be liable for anything no?

It is ludicrous what we are doing and absolutely shameful. Nantes have acted poorly as well in their actions in terms of not contributing to the trust fund and chasing money immediately, but that is completely unrelated to what we are going after them for and not at all relevant.

When the dust settles on this, people will look back embarrassed at the stance they took on this.

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Well lets see what happens in court.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

If I owned a business and someone I employed for a specific purpose completed his job then at a later date he separately organised a doomed flight for an ex-employee then I wouldn’t expect to be liable for anything no?

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I'm guessing the action the club took against McKay was partly to establish if he was simply acting as an agent for the deal or something more.

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

I'm guessing the action the club took against McKay was partly to establish if he was simply acting as an agent for the deal or something more.

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I still fail to see what difference this makes as he wasn’t a Nantes player at the time of the crash.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

I still fail to see what difference this makes as he wasn’t a Nantes player at the time of the crash.

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As I understand it the claims before the court are that:
1. Within the context of French employment law Emiliano was still their employee at his time of death as the documents terminating his employment had not been lodged (or had been improperly lodged).
2. Given he was still their employee they owed him a duty of care that they neglected through their arrangements with a connected party to Nantes, i.e. the player agency involved and it's employee/representative who arranged an "illegal" flight.
3. As a result of Nantes negligence Cardiff City suffered financial losses, namely the transfer fee and related costs and the potential earnings from avoiding relegation from the Premier League.

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Originally Posted by JumpersforGoalposts

As I understand it the claims before the court are that:
1. Within the context of French employment law Emiliano was still their employee at his time of death as the documents terminating his employment had not been lodged (or had been improperly lodged).
2. Given he was still their employee they owed him a duty of care that they neglected through their arrangements with a connected party to Nantes, i.e. the player agency involved and it's employee/representative who arranged an "illegal" flight.
3. As a result of Nantes negligence Cardiff City suffered financial losses, namely the transfer fee and related costs and the potential earnings from avoiding relegation from the Premier League.

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Thanks. Makes me a bit uneasy if I’m honest that we are trying to exploit a loophole of whether his registration was properly completed. Especially as pinning our hopes on Nantes using a dodgy agent that we freely used ourselves at that time.

Mainly just feel for the family as this continues to drag on.

David

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

Thanks. Makes me a bit uneasy if I’m honest that we are trying to exploit a loophole of whether his registration was properly completed. Especially as pinning our hopes on Nantes using a dodgy agent that we freely used ourselves at that time.

Mainly just feel for the family as this continues to drag on.

David

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I understand your view but this isn't about footballer registration, it's French employment law and the potential consequences of failing to exercise a proper duty of care to an employee.
When we finally get to a judgement the Sala family lawyers will likely take their own action if the court takes the view that he was still Nantes' employee and they were negligent in their dealings with him, even if the financial end of Cardiff City's claim fails.

I feel very ashamed of the club.

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Originally Posted by B. Oddie

I feel very ashamed of Vincent Tan .

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Corrected it for you….are you really surprised at anything he does?

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Originally Posted by B. Oddie

I feel very ashamed of the club.

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I would imagine any other club in the same circumstances would do exactly the same thing as Tan is currently doing, regardless of the ethical considerations.

Can you think of any club that wouldn’t , apart from Swansea City of course. They would be too preoccupied taking legal action against their former manager.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

Why are we continuing to drag this on? It’s embarrassing and crass. He was our player. What am I missing?

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After all this time and with all the publicity surrounding the case it is amazing that someone can still be so ill informed. You have totally missed the point that Nantes and their (illegal ?) agent are alleged to have arranged the flight. It doesn't matter who Sala belonged to at the time of his death, if that fact is held to be true then Nantes were negligent and liable for City’s losses. Using this case to continually have a go at battering the club is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by JumpersforGoalposts

I understand your view but this isn't about footballer registration, it's French employment law and the potential consequences of failing to exercise a proper duty of care to an employee.
When we finally get to a judgement the Sala family lawyers will likely take their own action if the court takes the view that he was still Nantes' employee and they were negligent in their dealings with him, even if the financial end of Cardiff City's claim fails.

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It has already been established in a separate case that Sala was City’s player at the time of his death. That is irrelevant in what is going on now. If Nantes and Mckay are found to have arranged the flight (which was illegal) and bearing in mind McKay was not a licensed agent in France at the time, then they were negligent and would be liable for City’s losses.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

If I owned a business and someone I employed for a specific purpose completed his job then at a later date he separately organised a doomed flight for an ex-employee then I wouldn’t expect to be liable for anything no?

It is ludicrous what we are doing and absolutely shameful. Nantes have acted poorly as well in their actions in terms of not contributing to the trust fund and chasing money immediately, but that is completely unrelated to what we are going after them for and not at all relevant.

When the dust settles on this, people will look back embarrassed at the stance they took on this.

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What is shameful is you continually quoting ‘facts’ that you have no idea whether they are true and using it to batter the club. If you bought an expensive car and paid for it in advance and then the garage arranged an unlicensed/illegal contractor to take it to you but it fell off the delivery lorry and was written off, you would sue the living daylights out of everybody you could to get your money back plus damages, loss of income, compensation and anything else your lawyer thought you could get. And yet, you expect us to believe that you would just shrug and say ‘cest la vie’ ? Nonsense.

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Originally Posted by bobh

I can see Cardiff winning the case to some extent, but I can't see £100M being awarded on "What might have happened".
There is no guarantee that we would have stayed up with Sala - he might have got injured first game

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The club have employed expert witness that states we would have had a 52-56% chance of staying up.iirc

The 100 million claim is probably an opportunity for Nantes to settle.

Either way Nantes are in trouble with the FFA

We have not heard yet about the role that Warnock played in terms of pushing through this transfer and his dealings with the illegal agents.

It could be that UEFA go after him for conspiracy

Anyway. Nantes have until September to respond

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

We have not heard yet about the role that Warnock played in terms of pushing through this transfer and his dealings with the illegal agents.

It could be that UEFA go after him for conspiracy

Anyway. Nantes have until September to respond

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If members of the McKay family have had to surrender Cardiff City related emails and correspondence as a result of the court action taken by the Club it may well reveal issues other than McKay links to Nantes which was the main purpose of the exercise

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Originally Posted by Enoch Mort

If members of the McKay family have had to surrender Cardiff City related emails and correspondence as a result of the court action taken by the Club it may well reveal issues other than McKay links to Nantes which was the main purpose of the exercise

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The key point for me is they "have had to" - their statements imply they have cooperated - if so why has it taken court appearances to achieve this - all is of this stinks to high heaven and no one comes out with any grace and yet two people lost their lives but their memories get trampled on every single day - 5 years now and still no end in sight for them

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Originally Posted by dml1954

What is shameful is you continually quoting ‘facts’ that you have no idea whether they are true and using it to batter the club. If you bought an expensive car and paid for it in advance and then the garage arranged an unlicensed/illegal contractor to take it to you but it fell off the delivery lorry and was written off, you would sue the living daylights out of everybody you could to get your money back plus damages, loss of income, compensation and anything else your lawyer thought you could get. And yet, you expect us to believe that you would just shrug and say ‘cest la vie’ ? Nonsense.

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What are you on about?

You’re defending a club trying to use a loophole to get out of paying for a player after a tragic accident because you happen to support that club.

He wasn’t Nantes player. It is irrelevant that they employed McKay and McKay then arranged the flight. He was an ex-employee of Nantes and the fact they employed McKay has zero relevance.

Comparing Sala to the delivery of a car, what a crass post. Also a completely wrong analogy. Take a look at yourself you embarrassment

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

What are you on about?

You’re defending a club trying to use a loophole to get out of paying for a player after a tragic accident because you happen to support that club.

He wasn’t Nantes player. It is irrelevant that they employed McKay and McKay then arranged the flight. He was an ex-employee of Nantes and the fact they employed McKay has zero relevance.

Comparing Sala to the delivery of a car, what a crass post. Also a completely wrong analogy. Take a look at yourself you embarrassment

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You seem to miss the point completely. Cardiff City have already paid for the player and donated a significant sum to the Sala Trust Fund which significantly F C Nantes and the PFA declined to do so. The case revolves around whether Nantes in their dealings with Cardiff re. the Sala transfer employed an unlicenced agent which would be illegal in French law and materially determine the legitimacy of the transfer. Cardiff City are pursuing what their lawyers consider natural justice as they believe the club has been wronged and in that case want compensation for losses incurred. It is no different from me suing a dodgy Gumtree seller that has not delivered to me the goods I paid for.
I think you need to spend more time outside than inside the Birch!!

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

You seem to miss the point completely. Cardiff City have already paid for the player and donated a significant sum to the Sala Trust Fund which significantly F C Nantes and the PFA declined to do so. The case revolves around whether Nantes in their dealings with Cardiff re. the Sala transfer employed an unlicenced agent which would be illegal in French law and materially determine the legitimacy of the transfer. Cardiff City are pursuing what their lawyers consider natural justice as they believe the club has been wronged and in that case want compensation for losses incurred. It is no different from me suing a dodgy Gumtree seller that has not delivered to me the goods I paid for.
I think you need to spend more time outside than inside the Birch!!

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We were happy to deal with McKay and sign his two sons around that time, it is laughable that we are pursuing this like a dog with a bone on the back of that.

Your analogy is not only crass but also incorrect. We signed the player, he was ours. He was “delivered”. The fact he chose to go back to Nantes to collect some belongings does not mean Nantes are suddenly responsible for the subsequent accident due to Sala accepting a less than glamorous private flight from someone who had acted for their club.

Thanks for your concern but I have not touched alcohol in a number of years.

Going to step away from this thread now, depressing to see it get to a point where people compare a young man passing away in the worst way possible to a car damaged in transit.

David

This thread was going off on a tangent until dml1954 corrected the whole point of this case. Clearly it took the Court cases against McKay to get the relevant proof that he was acting for Nantes who paid and arranged for the dodgy flight. Of course had the tragedy not happened nothing more would have been said but in the circumstances the club has a point and were right to pursue the matter.

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Originally Posted by B. Oddie

I feel very ashamed of the club.

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Why? Kita and the agent are the ones who should be “ashamed”. This has nothing to do with fans of Cardiff and Nantes, just the 2 owners, one of whom is facing jail.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

We were happy to deal with McKay and sign his two sons around that time, it is laughable that we are pursuing this like a dog with a bone on the back of that.

Your analogy is not only crass but also incorrect. We signed the player, he was ours. He was “delivered”. The fact he chose to go back to Nantes to collect some belongings does not mean Nantes are suddenly responsible for the subsequent accident due to Sala accepting a less than glamorous private flight from someone who had acted for their club.

Thanks for your concern but I have not touched alcohol in a number of years.

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FC Nantes are not responsible for anything, their dodgy owner is…he is despised in Nantes

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I would imagine any other club in the same circumstances would do exactly the same thing as Tan is currently doing, regardless of the ethical considerations.

Can you think of any club that wouldn’t , apart from Swansea City of course. They would be too preoccupied taking legal action against their former manager.

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Of course, they would and so would all the people saying it's not right if it was their money lost due to no fault of their own.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

It has already been established in a separate case that Sala was City’s player at the time of his death. That is irrelevant in what is going on now. If Nantes and Mckay are found to have arranged the flight (which was illegal) and bearing in mind McKay was not a licensed agent in France at the time, then they were negligent and would be liable for City’s losses.

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And if so partly responsible.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

What is shameful is you continually quoting ‘facts’ that you have no idea whether they are true and using it to batter the club. If you bought an expensive car and paid for it in advance and then the garage arranged an unlicensed/illegal contractor to take it to you but it fell off the delivery lorry and was written off, you would sue the living daylights out of everybody you could to get your money back plus damages, loss of income, compensation and anything else your lawyer thought you could get. And yet, you expect us to believe that you would just shrug and say ‘cest la vie’ ? Nonsense.

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Of course, he would, he'd be going mental if people were saying let it go don't worry about it why are you making a fuss, you're making me ashamed.

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

The club have employed expert witness that states we would have had a 52-56% chance of staying up.iirc

The 100 million claim is probably an opportunity for Nantes to settle.

Either way Nantes are in trouble with the FFA

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Not a great expert either I would say 97.576% it affected Warnock too, we would have stayed up easy.

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

We have not heard yet about the role that Warnock played in terms of pushing through this transfer and his dealings with the illegal agents.

It could be that UEFA go after him for conspiracy

Anyway. Nantes have until September to respond

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Nothing to do with him, he's just a Manager who recommends players to the board.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

You seem to miss the point completely. Cardiff City have already paid for the player and donated a significant sum to the Sala Trust Fund which significantly F C Nantes and the PFA declined to do so. The case revolves around whether Nantes in their dealings with Cardiff re. the Sala transfer employed an unlicenced agent which would be illegal in French law and materially determine the legitimacy of the transfer. Cardiff City are pursuing what their lawyers consider natural justice as they believe the club has been wronged and in that case want compensation for losses incurred. It is no different from me suing a dodgy Gumtree seller that has not delivered to me the goods I paid for.
I think you need to spend more time outside than inside the Birch!!

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:hehe: he's a WUM not a great one either!

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Clearly it took the Court cases against McKay to get the relevant proof that he was acting for Nantes who paid and arranged for the dodgy flight.

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Nantes paid for and arranged the flight? Is that a fact?

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

The club have employed expert witness that states we would have had a 52-56% chance of staying up.iirc

The 100 million claim is probably an opportunity for Nantes to settle.

Either way Nantes are in trouble with the FFA

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FFF?

If, as reported, the transfer payment has been made, did Bordeaux get the 50% sell on fee?

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

The club have employed expert witness that states we would have had a 52-56% chance of staying up.iirc

The 100 million claim is probably an opportunity for Nantes to settle.

Either way Nantes are in trouble with the FFA

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FFF?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Nantes paid for and arranged the flight? Is that a fact?

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That is what I assume the club were aiming to prove when they asked for the relevant document in the Court case at least that is what I assumed was the position especially as the club got the Court to order McKay to release documents which gave the club the proof they needed to pursue their claim in the French courts.

If you have more accurate information please let me know.