Institute For Fiscal Studies

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

That's all very laudable. What I find unacceptable is that people who want the same as you have hijacked a socialist party to achieve it. I think you would accept that is very far away from what the party was established to achieve? Obviously parties and their policies have to evolve. But the Labour Party was changed out of all recognition by Blair and his ilk. That's not on.

It's a cliche I know but Keir Hardie, Michael Foot, Nye Bevan, Dennis Skinner, Eric Heffer, etc would all be appalled by what it's become. Jesus even Harold Winston, Barbara Castle and Jim Callaghan would.

---

But it is much better than the crap we have in charge at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

That's all very laudable. What I find unacceptable is that people who want the same as you have hijacked a socialist party to achieve it. I think you would accept that is very far away from what the party was established to achieve? Obviously parties and their policies have to evolve. But the Labour Party was changed out of all recognition by Blair and his ilk. That's not on.

It's a cliche I know but Keir Hardie, Michael Foot, Nye Bevan, Dennis Skinner, Eric Heffer, etc would all be appalled by what it's become. Jesus even Harold Winston, Barbara Castle and Jim Callaghan would.

---

It's 2024 , I don't care about The Labour Party I just want a left of centre alternative to the Tories , merging Labour and the liberals would be the best option in my opinion

Heffer , Livingstone , Skinner were always part of the problem and gave the tories and press so much ammunition

You don't have to sing keep the red flag flying to want decent care for the vulnerable

In fact the Liberal Democrats have proposed far better investment in that area than The Labour Party

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeepster

But it is much better than the crap we have in charge at the moment.

---

Yes it's going to be far from perfect

But if we all live in the past and don't let go of some ideals then the Tories will just continue to rule most of the time

Student Sixth Form Socialism

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

That's all very laudable. What I find unacceptable is that people who want the same as you have hijacked a socialist party to achieve it. I think you would accept that is very far away from what the party was established to achieve? Obviously parties and their policies have to evolve. But the Labour Party was changed out of all recognition by Blair and his ilk. That's not on.

It's a cliche I know but Keir Hardie, Michael Foot, Nye Bevan, Dennis Skinner, Eric Heffer, etc would all be appalled by what it's become. Jesus even Harold Winston, Barbara Castle and Jim Callaghan would.

---

Skinner , Heffer , Benn , Abbott , Corbyn .......did a lot of talking at fringe meetings , at labour party conferences and in some cases on programmes like question time

Now wether the media stitched them up is another debate but the British people saw these representatives of the labour party as too extreme

So the labour party for much of my lifetime has achieved very little because we havnt been in power

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Skinner , Heffer , Benn , Abbott , Corbyn .......did a lot of talking at fringe meetings , at labour party conferences and in some cases on programmes like question time

Now wether the media stitched them up is another debate but the British people saw these representatives of the labour party as too extreme

So the labour party for much of my lifetime has achieved very little because we havnt been in power

---

Skinner was an MP for 49 years. Tony Benn was an MP for 47 years. Diane Abbott has been an MP for 37 years. Jeremy Corbyn was a MP for 41 years. But yeah their constituents saw them as too extreme.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Skinner was an MP for 49 years. Tony Benn was an MP for 47 years. Diane Abbott has been an MP for 37 years. Jeremy Corbyn was a MP for 41 years. But yeah their constituents saw them as too extreme.

---

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

---

The British people in electoral terms are just a collection of 600 odd constituents. When constituencies have been presented with left candidates they've elected them including Corbyn. Llew Smith, who I knew very well, was very left wing and is in the Guinness Book of Records for having the biggest majority in parliamentary history.

All this is by the by though. The point is that the Labour Party was a socialist party. It was hijacked by pink Tories. So now Britain does not have a socialist party for those who want that form of government.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Skinner was an MP for 49 years. Tony Benn was an MP for 47 years. Diane Abbott has been an MP for 37 years. Jeremy Corbyn was a MP for 41 years. But yeah their constituents saw them as too extreme.

---

To be fair they were. Lenin was in power for a good old run. So was Che Guevara. So was
Putin. So has Xi.

Time in power doesn’t mean they weren’ extreme. It just meant their voters were also extreme, as is now the centre is foldin, or there were happy to have “one of us” running their local seat. Local peer pressure, or beer pressure, can make people think and vote like sheep.

One thing I will say to Skinner is that he lived by his values, as did Benn and Foot. On the one hand it was Maggie, and these guys on the other side. Very opposite, but at least lived their values and practiced what they preached. Even Blair never pretended he was Socialist - he was honest that he was a Thatcherite with an improved view on social justice.

You can’t say that for Abbott. Nor Kinnock. These were champagne socialiats. Preached Socialism higher taxation and power of the state, but Abbott loaded up on private education, while both the slippery weasely Kinnocks dodged tax working for the EU and filled their pockets for £15m in a tax have. Weasels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

To be fair they were. Lenin was in power for a good old run. So was Che Guevara. So was
Putin. So has Xi.

Time in power doesn’t mean they weren’ extreme. It just meant their voters were also extreme, as is now the centre is foldin, or there were happy to have “one of us” running their local seat. Local peer pressure, or beer pressure, can make people think and vote like sheep.

One thing I will say to Skinner is that he lived by his values, as did Benn and Foot. On the one hand it was Maggie, and these guys on the other side. Very opposite, but at least lived their values and practiced what they preached. Even Blair never pretended he was Socialist - he was honest that he was a Thatcherite with an improved view on social justice.

You can’t say that for Abbott. Nor Kinnock. These were champagne socialiats. Preached Socialism higher taxation and power of the state, but Abbott loaded up on private education, while both the slippery weasely Kinnocks dodged tax working for the EU and filled their pockets for £15m in a tax have. Weasels.

---

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected.

Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite. Parties obviously have to compromise to some extent or else they'll die political virgins, never getting their hands dirty and achieving nothing. But they should have certain principles that are non negotiable. For Labour that was socialism. It was embedded in its constitution.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected. Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

---

I would rather a left of centre party in government than the tories

It's all very romantic pining for socialism but corbyn put socialism to the people in 2019

The result was the biggest defeat for 100 years

Some socialists , most maybe come from the heart but it's completely unrealistic

Galloway says he's a socialist , I can't see many people getting behind him

Maybe a new left party will emerge but it will never succeed , people just ain't interested these days

I would rather vote left wing than tory but the old Labour Party had to lose some of its principles or never get voted in

You can't change people's lives in Labour party left wing focus groups or fringe meetings at Blackpool conferences

Those days are long gone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected.

Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite. Parties obviously have to compromise to some extent or else they'll die political virgins, never getting their hands dirty and achieving nothing. But they should have certain principles that are non negotiable. For Labour that was socialism. It was embedded in its constitution.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

---

Kinnock faced up to the hard left who ruined any chance of defeating Thatcher

He then went all potty over europe and money

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

---

Do you remember 2017?

The Corbyn led Labour Party got 40% of the vote (up 9% from 2015).

The Starmer led Labour Party is currently on 41% according to the opinion polls (BBC Poll of Polls yesterday).

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

Starmer is running on a manifesto that barely has any plans other than 'stick to the Tory plans but be a bit less corrupt'.

Corbyn crashed and burned in 2019 because of Brexit - the Starmer policy that was incoherent and dishonest. Corbyn was too weak to change that.

But there is no reason to think that British people will not support clear, ambitious and radical governmental programmes as evidenced by the support for Labour's 2017 plans. There is every reason to think that the UK establishment will resist that as they always have done - but I have more faith in the people than you seem to, Sludge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

Do you remember 2017?

The Corbyn led Labour Party got 40% of the vote (up 9% from 2015).

The Starmer led Labour Party is currently on 41% according to the opinion polls (BBC Poll of Polls yesterday).

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

Starmer is running on a manifesto that barely has any plans other than 'stick to the Tory plans but be a bit less corrupt'.

Corbyn crashed and burned in 2019 because of Brexit - the Starmer policy that was incoherent and dishonest. Corbyn was too weak to change that.

But there is no reason to think that British people will not support clear, ambitious and radical governmental programmes as evidenced by the support for Labour's 2017 plans. There is every reason to think that the UK establishment will resist that as they always have done - but I have more faith in the people than you seem to, Sludge.

---

I feel you too are also living in the past

A new centre left party could keep the Tories out permanently but we are too busy reading biographies of the likes of Tony bloody Benn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I feel you too are also living in the past

A new centre left party could keep the Tories out permanently but we are too busy reading biographies of the likes of Tony bloody Benn

---

I’m still waiting to see concrete evidence that Starmer’s Labour are a left leaning party in this election campaign.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I would rather a left of centre party in government than the tories

It's all very romantic pining for socialism but corbyn put socialism to the people in 2019

The result was the biggest defeat for 100 years

Some socialists , most maybe come from the heart but it's completely unrealistic

Galloway says he's a socialist , I can't see many people getting behind him

Maybe a new left party will emerge but it will never succeed , people just ain't interested these days

I would rather vote left wing than tory but the old Labour Party had to lose some of its principles or never get voted in

You can't change people's lives in Labour party left wing focus groups or fringe meetings at Blackpool conferences

Those days are long gone

---

You consistently ignore my point. If you and people like you want a left leaning party rather than a socialist party then you should have started your own rather than hijack the Labour Party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I’m still waiting to see concrete evidence that Starmer’s Labour are a left leaning party in this election campaign.

---

I think there's a very good reason for this.

I absolutely understand why people will vote Labour to oust the Tories. I won't, but I get it.

IMO what will happen is this. Starmer will win a handsome majority for his Tory Lite policies. He will point to his landslide and to Blair's before him and to Corbyn's defeat and will say, "See, this is what people want - Conservatism but watered down a bit and less corrupt." If, like Sludge you're OK with that and don't really want to see any major changes to the way society is run then fine. If you actually want a radical Labour Party then tough, your vote has helped ensure you never get it.

You reap what you sow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

You consistently ignore my point. If you and people like you want a left leaning party rather than a socialist party then you should have started your own rather than hijack the Labour Party.

---

The labour party always had a large moderate base

It was the tub thumpers of Benn and the left that made it unelectable

I couldn't care less about tradition if that tradition means left leaning and moderate policies are never implemented because the left scare everyone off

I think a lot of the left are more concerned with listening to each other say how great socialism is and slapping each other on the back than accepting their time is gone

You can be moderate and get things done

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

I think there's a very good reason for this.

I absolutely understand why people will vote Labour to oust the Tories. I won't, but I get it.

IMO what will happen is this. Starmer will win a handsome majority for his Tory Lite policies. He will point to his landslide and to Blair's before him and to Corbyn's defeat and will say, "See, this is what people want - Conservatism but watered down a bit and less corrupt." If, like Sludge you're OK with that and don't really want to see any major changes to the way society is run then fine. If you actually want a radical Labour Party then tough, your vote has helped ensure you never get it.

You reap what you sow.

---

If you want radical changes to the way society is run you may as well go and live on a hippy commune because we have to live within the barriers of a a capitalist , Liberal sort of concensus

The Green Party have some superb ideas , very socialist but the money isn't there to back up their plans

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

---

That's everything you need to know right there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The labour party always had a large moderate base

It was the tub thumpers of Benn and the left that made it unelectable

I couldn't care less about tradition if that tradition means left leaning and moderate policies are never implemented because the left scare everyone off

I think a lot of the left are more concerned with listening to each other say how great socialism is and slapping each other on the back than accepting their time is gone

You can be moderate and get things done

---

It has always had a strong moderate base. It always was socialist though. Now it doesn't pretend to be. The SDP split from the Labour Party which is fair enough, how it should be done. How it should not have been done is to transform the party into SDP v. 2.0.

Anyway I won't be voting Tory Lite. You will and you'll get exactly what you want so I guess we'll both be content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

It has always had a strong moderate base. It always was socialist though. Now it doesn't pretend to be. The SDP split from the Labour Party which is fair enough, how it should be done. How it should not have been done is to transform the party into SDP v. 2.0.

Anyway I won't be voting Tory Lite. You will and you'll get exactly what you want so I guess we'll both be content.

---

I will get some left and moderate policies , not ideal but there you go

You won't get anything at all

I suppose that's a result

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I will get some left and moderate policies , not ideal but there you go

You won't get anything at all

I suppose that's a result

---

I'll get to remind you over the next five years when you're moaning about the government that you voted for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

I'll get to remind you over the next five years when you're moaning about the government that you voted for them.

---

And I will get to remind you that if we hadn't voted for Labour it would have been far worse

Of course if you choose not to exercise your right to vote you won't be in a position to moan about anything

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

And I will get to remind you that if we hadn't voted for Labour it would have been far worse

Of course if you choose not to exercise your right to vote you won't be in a position to moan about anything

---

Oh I will be. It's not my fault my party has been hijacked by pink Tories like you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Oh I will be. It's not my fault my party has been hijacked by pink Tories like you

---

You could vote for at least some moderate government

But instead you don't bother at all

I have voted Labour and sometimes Liberal all my life

In the old days when the left ruled the rhoost we would never get a chance of seeing anything but the Tories

79 to 1997

2010 to 2024 , long long times putting up with the Tories

If we were to take your position to a conclusion ...if you stayed at home in a marginal seat for the sake of spite towards a Labour party too far away from your socialist utopia ....and the Tories won ......then you are responsible , you are the problem and you are the tory lite

You can't change the world by sitting on your hands like a spoilt child

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You could vote for at least some moderate government

But instead you don't bother at all

I have voted Labour and sometimes Liberal all my life

In the old days when the left ruled the rhoost we would never get a chance of seeing anything but the Tories

79 to 1997

2010 to 2024 , long long times putting up with the Tories

If we were to take your position to a conclusion ...if you stayed at home in a marginal seat for the sake of spite towards a Labour party too far away from your socialist utopia ....and the Tories won ......then you are responsible , you are the problem and you are the tory lite

You can't change the world by sitting on your hands like a spoilt child

---

Changing the world is the last thing on your mind. The irony is that you are a conservative even if you don't actually vote Conservative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Changing the world is the last thing on your mind. The irony is that you are a conservative even if you don't actually vote Conservative.

---

Well if one marches against the invasion of iraq or faces up to the racist english defence league in cardiff then i think i think one can be said to have walked the walk and tried ones best to change things and maybe change the world , even in a small way

Your way is to not bother voting against a dreadful tory government because the labour party isnt as left wing as it used to be ?

Thats radical that is , possibly letting the conservatives off the hook

Keep the red flag flying

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well if one marches against the invasion of iraq or faces up to the racist english defence league in cardiff then i think i think one can be said to have walked the walk and tried ones best to change things and maybe change the world , even in a small way

Your way is to not bother voting against a dreadful tory government because the labour party isnt as left wing as it used to be ?

Thats radical that is , possibly letting the conservatives off the hook

Keep the red flag flying

---

Was that the invasion of Iraq under a Tory Lite Labour government? 😂

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Was that the invasion of Iraq under a Tory Lite Labour government? 😂

---

Well I didn't vote for that , refused to vote Labour again under Blair and marched in protest

The world is not perfect

And the graveyards are full of peoples political heroes who never really did anything but talk a good game

Heffer , Benn , Abbott, Corbyn , Hatton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I didn't vote for that , refused to vote Labour again under Blair and marched in protest

The world is not perfect

And the graveyards are full of peoples political heroes who never really did anything but talk a good game

Heffer , Benn , Abbott, Corbyn , Hatton

---

Get your marching boots out ready for whatever shitshow Starmer comes up with 👢👢

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Get your marching boots out ready for whatever shitshow Starmer comes up with 👢👢

---

I am almost certain it's going to be better than what we have at the moment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I am almost certain it's going to be better than what we have at the moment

---

The lowest of low bars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

The lowest of low bars.

---

Well in the absence of Tony Benn being dug up and the country voting for a far left manifesto .......I am afraid the best option is to get a moderate government elected and try and get as much done as possible

If that in the future becomes a Democrats type party or a hybrid labour , Liberal, green party then that's all we have

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well in the absence of Tony Benn being dug up and the country voting for a far left manifesto .......I am afraid the best option is to get a moderate government elected and try and get as much done as possible

If that in the future becomes a Democrats type party or a hybrid labour , Liberal, green party then that's all we have

---

Your level of ambition is breathtaking. Thank god we've had people with a bit more vision to guide the country or we'd be still sending kids up chimneys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Your level of ambition is breathtaking. Thank god we've had people with a bit more vision to guide the country or we'd be still sending kids up chimneys.

---

Well you are not going to change the country by taking your ball home and not voting

It's a protest but it doesn't achieve anything at all

Hopefully in ten years time we will have a merged left of centre party involving labour , liberals , greens etc

That's the only way of getting any sort of represention for those who don't vote Tory

Your method is all hot air and achieves nothing but back slapping