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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
stevo
You're quite right. Senior moment. Darwin of course was no fraud :hehe:
Best not confuse truthpaste who conflates science with scientists. Science is there to be discovered (despite incomplete, misunderstood, partly understood or even false information being gleaned and/or promulgated by various individuals).
A false or incorrect premise by an individual, whether he or she is considered to be a scientist, does not invalidate science itself. Peer evaluation and additional information over the long term tends to lead to such cases being debunked.
To imagine that scientists around the world are in cahoots is unbelievable laughable - as is the notion of science being a mirror of religion. It's the complete antithesis of religion in that even the most famous reputable scientists in the world revise their position if new data becomes available and which disproves their previous understanding.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
I'm sorry. Were you expecting a reply?
I thought your usual evasion and deflection was just your way of giving up on the argument? It has been in the past.
FWIW I don't have an answer for what existed before the big bang - or didn't exist. I sometimes get my head partly around the idea of non-linear time, and folds in space, and anti-matter and all the other mind bending exciting stuff from mathematics and astronomy.
But it's not my world and I don't need the answer to accept the best available scientific theories about the origins, size and expansion of the universe.
However, in the interests of even handedness. If you are not prepared to explain how the Big Bang fits with Genesis, then tell us who created your god. And who created the creator of your god? And.... repeat to fade. Always good for a laugh!
No, you actually gave up, until kicked back into life. People like Gofer and myself don't give up, mainly because we have something to say, as we are not standing on other people's opinions and as a result we are not short of an answer.
As you've again demonstrated (above), if a scientist doesn't tell you what to think, you have nothing to offer, hence my question. I knew you had no answer, because they have no answer about the origin of the 'big bang' either.
So let's get up to speed here; you are actually asking me this question; science has offered a way of understanding the moment this dimension began, it hasn't quite finished working out the idea from the start, yet you want to use it as a way of questioning Genesis!
So try getting an understanding first, and then question the account given by God, because a half baked idea is just that - an idea, mainly for people who have no idea at all :facepalm:
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
No, you actually gave up, until kicked back into life. People like Gofer and myself don't give up, mainly because we have something to say, as we are not standing on other people's opinions and as a result we are not short of an answer.
As you've again demonstrated (above), if a scientist doesn't tell you what to think, you have nothing to offer, hence my question. I knew you had no answer, because they have no answer about the origin of the 'big bang' either.
So let's get up to speed here; you are actually asking me this question; science has offered a way of understanding the moment this dimension began, it hasn't quite finished working out the idea from the start, yet you want to use it as a way of questioning Genesis!
So try getting an understanding first, and then question the account given by God, because a half baked idea is just that - an idea, mainly for people who have no idea at all :facepalm:
Another pile of pathetic evasion. The only thing in that lot that is true is that you don't give up - you stick around like a rash.
You posted a reference to a scientist who was a believer in your religion but whose work underpinned our current understanding of the beginning of the universe - the Big Bang.
I asked you how the Big Bang is consistent with Genesis - because if it's not you have succeeded again in undermining your own fantasy belief system.
Since then you have evaded and deflected and ducked and weaved. If you haven't got an answer - even if it is just the two things are incompatible - then just say so and give us a rest from all your bollux. Thanks.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Truthpaste - you still haven’t answered my question on the evolution of Homo sapiens.
Even so, I have another (broader) question - what science do you agree with? Periodic table? The fact that all elements beyond hydrogen and helium in the periodic table, including those that make up our bodies were created in dying stars?
Furthermore, how big is the universe? Are you okay with the theories on quantum physics and does God play with dice? What are your views on Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle? Interested to hear your thoughts on what elements of science you do agree with.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
stevo
Truthpaste - you still haven’t answered my question on the evolution of Homo sapiens.
Even so, I have another (broader) question - what science do you agree with? Periodic table? The fact that all elements beyond hydrogen and helium in the periodic table, including those that make up our bodies were created in dying stars?
Furthermore, how big is the universe? Are you okay with the theories on quantum physics and does God play with dice? What are your views on Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle? Interested to hear your thoughts on what elements of science you do agree with.
Thanks for asking and engaging, it makes a refreshing change. I've got a lot happening at the moment but should have sufficient time to answer you on Monday or Tuesday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Thanks for asking and engaging, it makes a refreshing change. I've got a lot happening at the moment but should have sufficient time to answer you on Monday or Tuesday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Thanks, no rush. No doubt you’re busy preparing for the imminent apocalypse :thumbup:
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
BTW I am still waiting (but not with bated breath) for you to square the Big Bang with Genesis.
Many Christians are happy to go with the idea of a big bang which may or may not be true, but it remains (in scientific terms) an idea that still has no substantive details on it's origin or cause. So there is whatsoever no NEED to square the Genesis account with any half baked idea at all. But hearing your views and questions is always helpful.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
stevo
Thanks, no rush. No doubt you’re busy preparing for the imminent apocalypse :thumbup:
I'm ready for all future events and have been for a few decades, but thanks for the thought.
To answer your questions re science, then all verified things such as the periodic table are naturally accepted by Bible believers; and you can be sure that all serious readers would never expect to find (nor have they ever found) any new factual data that is able to dismiss the testimony given by God in Scripture. It's also interesting to note that science when dealing only in the facts and not speculation, will always point the student towards God rather than away from Him. Fibonacci numbers are one example of this, with such structures being found not only on earth but also visible billions of miles away across universe.
You also mentioned quantum physics; Max Planck (the founder of quantum physics) believed that the order of the universe points towards a God, stating that "for the believer, God stands at the beginning of their speeches; for the physicist, at the end of them".
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
I'm ready for all future events and have been for a few decades, but thanks for the thought.
To answer your questions re science, then all verified things such as the periodic table are naturally accepted by Bible believers; and you can be sure that all serious readers would never expect to find (nor have they ever found) any new factual data that is able to dismiss the testimony given by God in Scripture. It's also interesting to note that science when dealing only in the facts and not speculation, will always point the student towards God rather than away from Him. Fibonacci numbers are one example of this, with such structures being found not only on earth but also visible billions of miles away across universe.
You also mentioned quantum physics; Max Planck (the founder of quantum physics) believed that the order of the universe points towards a God, stating that "for the believer, God stands at the beginning of their speeches; for the physicist, at the end of them".
Structures seen billions of miles away?Total fabrication.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
Structures seen billions of miles away?Total fabrication.
The Hubble Space Telescope can see out to a distance of several billions of light-years - link
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
The Hubble Space Telescope can see out to a distance of several billions of light-years -
link
Where does it mention structures?
You knew what i was getting at it was not about the ability to see but structures.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
Where does it mention structures?
You knew what i was getting at it was not about the ability to see but structures.
What a fruitless argument? Are you really suggesting that planets (for example) are NOT structures?
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
I'm ready for all future events and have been for a few decades, but thanks for the thought
Why have you been ready for decades? Why would god warn you of an upcoming apocalypse and then fail to deliver multiple times?
Surely with all the resources out there; a 2000 year old book, lunar eclipses, natural disasters, ancient prophecies and most importantly, complete and utter faith, you’d be able to pinpoint when god’s planning on having his big shindig upstairs with all the believers.
Bit of a dick move from god to leave you in the lurch like that.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
Why have you been ready for decades? Why would god warn you of an upcoming apocalypse and then fail to deliver multiple times?
Surely with all the resources out there; a 2000 year old book, lunar eclipses, natural disasters, ancient prophecies and most importantly, complete and utter faith, you’d be able to pinpoint when god’s planning on having his big shindig upstairs with all the believers.
Bit of a dick move from god to leave you in the lurch like that.
Well I can clearly see things are coming to a rapid end, but that could be years, months, days or seconds. But since 1968 I have been ready to meet God, and not because I am good enough, but because I realised I was never going to be good enough! So I thanked Him for dying on a cross so that He could offer me salvation, I asked Him to forgive me and change me; ie I promised to serve Him for the rest of my days and become part of His family.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
- (John 1:12).
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Well I can clearly see things are coming to a rapid end, but that could be years, months, days or seconds. But since 1968 I have been ready to meet God, and not because I am good enough, but because I realised I was never going to be good enough! So I thanked Him for dying on a cross so that He could offer me salvation, I asked Him to forgive me and change me; ie I promised to serve Him for the rest of my days and become part of His family.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
- (John 1:12).
Well what’s the point of all these bloody X marks the spot lunar eclipses if you can even pin it down to the right century??
Has someone told god he needs to get with the times. Chuck out an email or a social media campaign.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
Well what’s the point of all these bloody X marks the spot lunar eclipses if you can even pin it down to the right century??
Has someone told god he needs to get with the times. Chuck out an email or a social media campaign.
This is what he does never an answer besides verses from magical book never ever proof of the rising of jesus.
Only he was not there.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Well I can clearly see things are coming to a rapid end, but that could be years, months, days or seconds. But since 1968 I have been ready to meet God, and not because I am good enough, but because I realised I was never going to be good enough! So I thanked Him for dying on a cross so that He could offer me salvation, I asked Him to forgive me and change me; ie I promised to serve Him for the rest of my days and become part of His family.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
- (John 1:12).
Are you a protestant?
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
This is what he does never an answer besides verses from magical book never ever proof of the rising of jesus. Only he was not there.
He wasn't there, you picked up on that bit, nice one :thumbup:
Loads of proof outside the Bible too, if you care to look.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
He wasn't there, you picked up on that bit, nice one :thumbup:
Loads of proof outside the Bible too, if you care to look.
Grave robbers.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
Well what’s the point of all these bloody X marks the spot lunar eclipses if you can even pin it down to the right century?? Has someone told god he needs to get with the times. Chuck out an email or a social media campaign.
I see, God has to communicate using all the methods approved by you!
The X related to America and warned them of various judgements to come; but fret not, there's been nothing unusual on their news bulletins since that warning :sherlock:
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
Grave robbers.
Nice try, but that wasn't possible as the Romans were guarding it.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
I see, God has to communicate using all the methods approved by you!
The X related to America and warned them of various judgements to come; but fret not, there's been nothing unusual on their news bulletins since that warning :sherlock:
The big fella can do what he pleases. Just think it’s a shocking show of inefficiency from someone who made the universe in 6 days.
One of those big Lego Death Stars or Taj Mahal sets would probably take me longer.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
The big fella can do what he pleases. Just think it’s a shocking show of inefficiency from someone who made the universe in 6 days.
One of those big Lego Death Stars or Taj Mahal sets would probably take me longer.
If only your wisdom could be embraced and then somehow unleashed on the world. Oh well.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Nice try, but that wasn't possible as the Romans were guarding it.
They were in on it,they had no love for him.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
They were in on it,they had no love for him.
If so, why didn't they produce the body to instantly destroy any notion of a resurrection? The Pharisees would have loved it if they could have - hence they insisted on the Roman guard around the tomb to prevent the very thing that you suggest. In any case such a dereliction of duty on the part of the Roman soldiers would have meant a death sentence for them.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
If so, why didn't they produce the body to instantly destroy any notion of a resurrection? The Pharisees would have loved it if they could have - hence they insisted on the Roman guard around the tomb to prevent the very thing that you suggest. In any case such a dereliction of duty on the part of the Roman soldiers would have meant a death sentence for them.
Through out history there has been dereliction of duty and soldiers executed so big deal.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeepster
Through out history there has been dereliction of duty and soldiers executed so big deal.
So they would be prepared to die for allowing grave robbers to steal the body of a Jew! Pull the other one....:biggrin:
Next thing you'll be saying that is was the disciples "wot dun it" - another well known and laughable conspiracy theory.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
If so, why didn't they produce the body to instantly destroy any notion of a resurrection? The Pharisees would have loved it if they could have - hence they insisted on the Roman guard around the tomb to prevent the very thing that you suggest. In any case such a dereliction of duty on the part of the Roman soldiers would have meant a death sentence for them.
I don't really want to get drawn into this silly argument - but the 'instantly destroy any notion' is far from instant.
The so called evidence of someone becoming undead was written 35-60 years after the event. By devotees. Based mainly on hearsay. Then transmitted by word of mouth and storytelling. Then translated or (as it is now often known) mistranslated by semi literate scribes working across multiple languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin and then modern European languages).
The idea that this alleged event was recorded instantly rather than re-imagined one or two generations later is laughable!
Sorry for interrupting your Sherlock impersonation.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I don't really want to get drawn into this silly argument - but the 'instantly destroy any notion' is far from instant.
The so called evidence of someone becoming undead was written 35-60 years after the event. By devotees. Based mainly on hearsay. Then transmitted by word of mouth and storytelling. Then translated or (as it is now often known) mistranslated by semi literate scribes working across multiple languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin and then modern European languages).
The idea that this alleged event was recorded instantly rather than re-imagined one or two generations later is laughable!
Sorry for interrupting your Sherlock impersonation.
I think you have misread what I wrote. I did not say that the resurrection was recorded instantly. What I am saying is, if the authorities at the time (the Romans and the Pharisees) could have produced the dead body of Jesus shortly after his death, then the resurrection would have been instantly disproved and that would have been the end of Christianity before it ever really got going.
The idea that somehow such a significant event would be “reimagined” 35 years or so later is laughable. If you asked me if anything of significance happened in January 1990 (35 years ago) I would not be able to recall a single thing. Yet if you asked me if anything significant happened in January 1982 (43 years ago) I would immediately be able to tell you exactly what happened and in great detail. It snowed for two days non-stop and we were stranded in our bungalow with drifts approximately 8 feet deep right up to the gutters. The car was completely buried on the drive. The snow lingered on the ground for at least a month. I could go on.
As further examples I can vividly remember the exact day my grandfather died (26 September 1965), the week in which both my in-laws died (last week of June 1981), the day my father died (27 December 1997), and the day my mother died (7 March 2002), each in great detail.
If anyone of these came back to life after 3 days, can anyone seriously suggest that I would not remember that or invent it? 1st century people were well acquainted with death, they knew very well when someone was dead and they did not expect dead people to come alive after 3 days. So to make such a claim would indeed be foolish to say the least.
There is no way that any one of those early disciples would have forgotten the events of that first Easter and then somehow “re-imagined” or invented them 35 years later, or someone might have somehow “mistranslated” such basic information!
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
I think you have misread what I wrote. I did not say that the resurrection was recorded instantly. What I am saying is, if the authorities at the time (the Romans and the Pharisees) could have produced the dead body of Jesus shortly after his death, then the resurrection would have been instantly disproved and that would have been the end of Christianity before it ever really got going.
The idea that somehow such a significant event would be “reimagined” 35 years or so later is laughable. If you asked me if anything of significance happened in January 1990 (35 years ago) I would not be able to recall a single thing. Yet if you asked me if anything significant happened in January 1982 (43 years ago) I would immediately be able to tell you exactly what happened and in great detail. It snowed for two days non-stop and we were stranded in our bungalow with drifts approximately 8 feet deep right up to the gutters. The car was completely buried on the drive. The snow lingered on the ground for at least a month. I could go on.
As further examples I can vividly remember the exact day my grandfather died (26 September 1965), the week in which both my in-laws died (last week of June 1981), the day my father died (27 December 1997), and the day my mother died (7 March 2002), each in great detail.
If anyone of these came back to life after 3 days, can anyone seriously suggest that I would not remember that or invent it? 1st century people were well acquainted with death, they knew very well when someone was dead and they did not expect dead people to come alive after 3 days. So to make such a claim would indeed be foolish to say the least.
There is no way that any one of those early disciples would have forgotten the events of that first Easter and then somehow “re-imagined” or invented them 35 years later, or someone might have somehow “mistranslated” such basic information!
But none of it is factual is it.
People write books about the trouble down the football all bs
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jeepster
But none of it is factual is it.
People write books about the trouble down the football all bs
So apart from wishful thinking, what are you basing your conclusion on exactly?
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
So apart from wishful thinking, what are you basing your conclusion on exactly?
Attachment 6413
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
For someone who has nothing to add to such matters and can only declare them as pointless, you are obviously obliged to turn up at regular intervals and display your banner :hehe:
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
For someone who has nothing to add to such matters and can only declare them as pointless, you are obviously obliged to turn up at regular intervals and display your banner :hehe:
I know, I find it almost impossible to contribute to discussions of magic and invisible friends.
But sometimes (just now and then) one of your vacuous statements of contradictory and very unintended irony, where self-awareness can be nothing but a distant dream, justifies a little reminder that up isn't down, that wrong isn't right, and that blind faith is not proof. The knots you tie yourself in are painful to see.
I see it as a small kindness that maybe will draw you away from the potions and spells and into the real world. Natural not supernatural is where it's at! And it can be completely fascinating and fulfilling and meaningful without recourse to fairy stories.
(I do like your use of the word 'banner', though. Very good. :thumbup:)
:hehe:
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I know, I find it almost impossible to contribute to discussions of magic and invisible friends.
The knots you tie yourself in are painful to see. I see it as a small kindness that maybe will draw you away from the potions and spells and into the real world.
Well you are as compelled to air your 'truth' as much as the next man, but quit with the 'I find it almost impossible to contribute' line because nobody is buying it; your god demands you turn up as much as the Creator sends His representatives to air His declarations for people to examine, trust or discard. And so you do, bringing 100% scorn and 0% content.
Neither does God expect blind faith, you speak of potions and spells, but what of the blind faith you place in the 'big bang' and having no explanation for the complexities of DNA, supposedly from simple (unexplained) life forms? Also you have zero explanation for the setting for the ‘big bang’ - yet at the same time scoff at those who provide an alternative account because they have somehow departed from the 'real world', that real world whose origins you cannot even explain yourself!
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
That's called social conditioning, and somewhere between 66.6% and 80% of the population aren't even aware of it.
What will happen to the Palestinian kids in Gazza, will they get stronger and advance quicker ?
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
North Cardiff Blue
What will happen to the Palestinian kids in Gazza, will they get stronger and advance quicker ?
Only time will tell in each case, some I guess will be stronger through the experience, others will not.
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Only time will tell in each case, some I guess will be stronger through the experience, others will not.
So what you're saying is that you've not got a clue?
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alan Lung
So what you're saying is that you've not got a clue?
In fairness, why would he?
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Re: Evolving or Mutating?
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Originally Posted by
lardy
Are you a protestant?
How many Catholics do you know who study their Bible and are open to long discussions on it's key messages, let alone apologetics and eschatology?
