Riveria of the Middle East

There’s a Norman keep in the middle of town. Do you propose the French military should kick us pesky Welsh out?

If they did, the Italians might get a bit arsey considering below the Norman keep are Roman remains.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Is that so? If we look back as far as is possible then this is what we find re Palestine:-

*Palestines were formerly known as Philistines. The Philistines lived in the area known as Philistia, which included the five city-states of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gath and Ekron.

1)Before the modern state of Israel there was the British mandate, Not a Palestinian state.


2) Before the British mandate there was the ottoman empire, Not a Palestinian state.


3) Before the ottoman empire there was the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt, Not a Palestinian state.


4)Before the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt there was the ayyubid dynasty, Not a Palestinian state.
Godfrey of bouillon conquered it in 1099.


5) Before the ayyubid dynasty there was the christian kingdom of Jerusalem, Not a Palestinian state.


6) Before the christian kingdom of Jerusalem there was the Fatimid caliphate, Not a Palestinian state.


7) Before the Fatimid caliphate there was the byzantine empire, Not a Palestinian state.


8)) Before the byzantine empire there was the Roman empire, Not a Palestinian state.


9) Before the Roman empire there was the hasmonean dynasty, Not a Palestinian state.


10)Before the hasmonean dynasty there was the Seleucid empire,Not a Palestinian state.


11) Before the Seleucid empire there was the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon, Not a Palestinian state.


12) Before the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon there was the Persian empire, Not a Palestinian state.


13) Before the Persian empire there was the Babylonian empire, Not a Palestinian state.


14) Before the Babylonian empire there was the kingdoms of Israel and Judea, Not a Palestinian state.


15) Before the kingdoms of Israel and Judea there was the kingdom of Israel, Not a Palestinian state.


16) Before the kingdom of Israel there was the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel, Not a Palestinian state.


17) Before the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel there was the individual state of Canaan, Not a Palestinian state.


In fact in this corner of the earth there was everything but a Palestinian state!

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So what you're saying is that the Palestinian people have been oppressed and denied even more so than we initially thought. Wow! good work :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

It doesn’t depend on anything. Hamas started this latest feud by bombing Israel in 2023.

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If that is so - I disagree - it is still irrelevant to the Trump plan or to my post. Why do you think the Hamas attack (and the Israeli genocide that followed) justifies ethnic cleansing? You clearly do but have avoided saying why.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

The key point is this, it has never been a palestinian state, period.

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That is not a key point. It is not really a point at all.

The Palestinian people have lived in the land we know as Palestine for millennia. It is irrelevant whether or not there was a state called Palestine during all that time. They come from that land, unlike most of the non Arab population of Israel who come from Warsaw, Lvov, Paris and New York.

Denying the existence of Palestinians and Palestine has a long and ugly history - and it has a name too.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

If that is so - I disagree - it is still irrelevant to the Trump plan or to my post. Why do you think the Hamas attack (and the Israeli genocide that followed) justifies ethnic cleansing? You clearly do but have avoided saying why.

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You have jumped to a massive conclusion there. Which is absolute bollox. Nowhere have I said I support Trumps latest fruitcake ramblings.
My post was more aimed at you going on about the “US and European bombs being dropped by Israel. Hamas are just as bad, attacking Israel and causing the latest atrocities. It’s never ending mindless violence.
Anyway, I’m bowing out at this point. You and others can argue until the cows come home.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

The key point is this, it has never been a palestinian state, period.

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So says Netanyahu's UK spokesman.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

Or they’re not too keen on 6 million people being displaced into their country unwillingly.

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This is a question I posed on the forum some time back when this latest conflict arose.

If these neighbouring Arab states were concerned about their fellow Arabs in Gaza why did they not offer those who wanted to flee the conflict temporary accommodation in their lands soon after the October attack and the subsequent Israeli bombardment.

The fact that they still don't want Palestinians in their countries despite the widespread slaughter and destruction of infrastructure in Gaza speaks volumes. The current view seems to be that they don't want to be seen to be complicit in an ethnic cleansing campaign.

I disagree. I think they are scared of the thought of the remnants of Hamas, and a significant number of Palestinians who support Hamas, establishing themselves in their countries, thereby creating a new breeding ground for terrorists in their own backyard.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

This is a question I posed on the forum some time back when this latest conflict arose.

If these neighbouring Arab states were concerned about their fellow Arabs in Gaza why did they not offer those who wanted to flee the conflict temporary accommodation in their lands soon after the October attack and the subsequent Israeli bombardment.

The fact that they still don't want Palestinians in their countries despite the widespread slaughter and destruction of infrastructure in Gaza speaks volumes. The current view seems to be that they don't want to be seen to be complicit in an ethnic cleansing campaign.

I disagree. I think they are scared of the thought of the remnants of Hamas, and a significant number of Palestinians who support Hamas, establishing themselves in their countries, thereby creating a new breeding ground for terrorists in their own backyard.

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Spot on.

Most of the states neighbouring Israel and Palestine have rulers who consistently act in their material self interest. But they also have populations who in large majorities support the Palestinian people in the face of systemic discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Most of the rulers are responding to the opinions of their public.

They also understand international law and the concept of ‘crimes against humanity’ even if their own record on that stinks.

It is interesting to see who is shining a light on neighbouring states for supposedly not taking in the population of Gaza - even if that was wanted or possible with millions of refugees already inside their borders and a genocidal siege underway.

Those same posters are silent when it comes to the state (and its allies and enablers) that have created this humanitarian crisis (as a deliberate policy according to its political and military leadership) have failed in every responsibility they have as an occupying power, have ignored and sneered at international law and have boasted about their war crimes.

Gofer seems genuinely concerned about individual child victims - but not enough to break ranks with Truthpaste and his odious, racist, victim blaming views.

The solution lies within Israel/Palestine with aid, medical care, temporary shelters, rebuilding the neighbourhoods that have been levelled, security from an international force. It also requires an end to apartheid and the violence of illegal settlements and a political settlement that gives peace, justice and equal rights to people of all races and religions (or none) within one state or if necessary, two states.

But that is not the message from Trump’s White House or from the book of Stone Age foundation myths that inform the cult thinking on here.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Most of the states neighbouring Israel and Palestine have rulers who consistently act in their material self interest. But they also haveGofer seems genuinely concerned about individual child victims - but not enough to break ranks with Truthpaste and his odious, racist, victim blaming views.

The solution lies within Israel/Palestine with aid, medical care, temporary shelters, rebuilding the neighbourhoods that have been levelled, security from an international force. It also requires an end to apartheid and the violence of illegal settlements and a political settlement that gives peace, justice and equal rights to people of all races and religions (or none) within one state or if necessary, two states.

But that is not the message from Trump’s White House or from the book of Stone Age foundation myths that inform the cult thinking on here.

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You hand out labels like 'odious' and call for peace yet you hate anything and anyone connected to the Man who taught peace and explained how we can each obtain perfect and permanent peace; in fact until He arrives (as planned) to deal with this Abrahamic issue then you and people like you will churn out the same empty and misguided rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

It doesn’t depend on anything. Hamas started this latest feud by bombing Israel in 2023.

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I always preface anything I say on what Hamas did on 7 October 2023 by stating that it was shocking and indefensible, but there is a context here - Israel didn't jump from. peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians pre 7/10 to all out aggression after it.

This extract

"Even before Hamas’ attack on October 7, Israeli forces had already killed 234 Palestinians in the West Bank this year, while settlers were responsible for nine more killings."

from this article

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...st-year-record

referring to 2023 shows that there was around one Palestinian a day being killed by Israeli troops or settlers before 7 October, following on from a reported 204 in 2022.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...lers-2022-enar

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

referring to 2023 shows that there was around one Palestinian a day being killed by Israeli troops or settlers before 7 October, following on from a reported 204 in 2022.

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The report also mentions the reason for many attacks and executions by the IDF: "the victims had either completed or attempted a stabbing or vehicular assault against Israelis near Israeli checkpoints or hotspots".

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

The report also mentions the reason for many attacks and executions by the IDF: "the victims had either completed or attempted a stabbing or vehicular assault against Israelis near Israeli checkpoints or hotspots".

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What you’re saying then is that about a third of Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israeli forces might have been justified.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What you’re saying then is that about a third of Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israeli forces might have been justified.

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I made no such claim. In such a conflict who can start to put accurate figures on justified killings?; all we have are reports like these.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

I made no such claim. In such a conflict who can start to put accurate figures on justified killings?; all we have are reports like these.

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What the report’s doing is saying that around a third of Palestinian deaths in 2022 at the hands of Israeli forces or settlers could maybe be out down to a response to provocation, but two thirds of them seem to be ourely arbitrary and you’d think the proportion has risen since 7/10/23.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Most of the states neighbouring Israel and Palestine have rulers who consistently act in their material self interest. But they also have populations who in large majorities support the Palestinian people in the face of systemic discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Most of the rulers are responding to the opinions of their public.

They also understand international law and the concept of ‘crimes against humanity’ even if their own record on that stinks.

It is interesting to see who is shining a light on neighbouring states for supposedly not taking in the population of Gaza - even if that was wanted or possible with millions of refugees already inside their borders and a genocidal siege underway.

Those same posters are silent when it comes to the state (and its allies and enablers) that have created this humanitarian crisis (as a deliberate policy according to its political and military leadership) have failed in every responsibility they have as an occupying power, have ignored and sneered at international law and have boasted about their war crimes.

Gofer seems genuinely concerned about individual child victims - but not enough to break ranks with Truthpaste and his odious, racist, victim blaming views.

The solution lies within Israel/Palestine with aid, medical care, temporary shelters, rebuilding the neighbourhoods that have been levelled, security from an international force. It also requires an end to apartheid and the violence of illegal settlements and a political settlement that gives peace, justice and equal rights to people of all races and religions (or none) within one state or if necessary, two states.

But that is not the message from Trump’s White House or from the book of Stone Age foundation myths that inform the cult thinking on here.

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I am genuinely concerned about the ENTIRE Gaza situation but with particular concern for all the Palestinian children who are the innocents in this adult-made catastrophe, which is why I support FAJR for example. I strongly object to your assertion that I have odious, racist and victim blaming views. I am not so totally blinkered that I cannot see the situation from both sides. If that makes me an odious victim-blaming racist in your eyes, then so be it.

It seems to me that your opening paragraphs are a complete contradiction. You say most of the neighbouring states have rulers who are responding to the opinions of their public (who apparently have large majorities in support of the Palestinian people you say), but at the same time these rulers consistently act in their material self interest, presumably then NOT in response to the public opinion in their countries? Please explain.

The bottom line is that there will never be real peace whilst there is such hatred in the hearts of the people on both sides of the divide. No amount of political activity alone will resolve this.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I am genuinely concerned about the ENTIRE Gaza situation but with particular concern for all the Palestinian children who are the innocents in this adult-made catastrophe, which is why I support FAJR for example. I strongly object to your assertion that I have odious, racist and victim blaming views. I am not so totally blinkered that I cannot see the situation from both sides. If that makes me an odious victim-blaming racist in your eyes, then so be it.

It seems to me that your opening paragraphs are a complete contradiction. You say most of the neighbouring states have rulers who are responding to the opinions of their public (who apparently have large majorities in support of the Palestinian people you say), but at the same time these rulers consistently act in their material self interest, presumably then NOT in response to the public opinion in their countries? Please explain.

The bottom line is that there will never be real peace whilst there is such hatred in the hearts of the people on both sides of the divide. No amount of political activity alone will resolve this.

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I think the Truthpaste view that Palestinians are squatters, do not exist as a people, and that ‘the chosen people’ have some kind of Divine right to remove (ethnically cleanse) them from their land as part of a deal with his/your god 3000 years ago is absolutely odious and racist.

That extends to much of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the Sinai. Truthpaste makes clear that removing the Palestinians from the occupied territories is only a small fraction of the land grab he has seen endorsed in the Old Testament.

You have never challenged that and drop into a regular ‘scriptural’ double act with him that appears to me to endorse that view. You appear to have a genuine and deep concern for child victims but also support ‘solutions’ that aid the Israeli (and Christian Zionist) project - one that is a clear ‘crime against humanity’ under international law. Your choice.

You are right that I described a tension or contradiction in the actions of the rulers of neighbouring states. Their self interest must also take account of pressure from below. Six years ago the House of Saud was all in with the Abraham Accords brokered by Jared Kushner - to abandon the Palestinians in return for more arms, more trade and more favour from Trump’s USA. Now popular revulsion over Gaza has forced them to back off.

Only political activity - and a political resolution with international backing - will end the crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-to-leave-gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rump-gaza-plan

More than 350 rabbis, alongside additional signatories including Jewish creatives and activists, have signed an ad in the New York Times in which they condemn Donald Trump’s proposal for the effective ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza.

The ad, which was signed by rabbis including Sharon Brous, Roly Matalon and Alissa Wise, as well as Jewish creatives and activists including Tony Kushner, Ilana Glazer, Naomi Klein and Joaquin Phoenix, says: “Trump has called for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza. Jewish people say no to ethnic cleansing!”

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Cody Edgerly, director of the In Our Name Campaign and one of the organizers of the ad, said it came at “a critical time as political redlines that were once thought immovable are rapidly shifting as the Trump-Netanyahu alliance takes hold again”.

He said it had been “heartening to witness such a rapid outpouring of support from across the denominational and political spectrum”, adding: “Our message to Palestinians is that you are not alone, our attention has not wavered, and we are committed to fighting with every breath we have to stop ethnic cleansing in Gaza.”

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Trump’s proposal – which has evoked the painful legacy of the 1948 Nakba, during which hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcibly displaced from their homes by Zionist paramilitaries – was described as an “insidious plan” by rabbi Toba Spitzer.

In a news release accompanying the ad, Spitzer, senior rabbi of congregation Dorshei Tzedek in Newton, Massachusetts, said: “It is vitally important that we in the American Jewish community add our voices to all those refusing to entertain this insidious plan. Hitler’s dream of making Germany ‘Judenrein,’ ‘cleansed of Jews,’ led to the slaughter of our people.”

“We know as well as anyone the violence that these kinds of fantasies can lead to. It is time to make the ceasefire permanent, bring all of the hostages home, and join in efforts to rebuild Gaza for the sake of and with the people who live there,” Spitzer added.

Peter Beinart, editor-at-large of Jewish Currents, who also signed the ad, said: “It is utterly horrifying to see the degree to which people who enjoy great legitimacy and respect in our community are willing to support something that would be considered one of the greatest crimes of the 21st century.”

I do like the idea of a closer warm, near the beach Disneyland and Universal though, they could close the rainy horrible French-speaking Paris one.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1