40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

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Originally Posted by jon1959

It's not far fetched. It has been a part of the Gaza crisis for 2 weeks or more:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-nu...6796b0ade65768

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Thanks for the link. Wow. However the remarks were just "metaphorical" apparently. Uhm!

Any talk of some sort of limited use of nuclear weapons (e.g. by Putin) is insane IMO. Apart from the risk of immediate escalation, do the would-be perpetrators assume their own territory/citizens would somehow be immune from the effects of radiation and fall-out? I well remember the Chernobyl accident and the subsequent radioactive sheep many, many miles away in north Wales!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't entirely disagree with you. But the point is that Hamas broke the ceasefire. Israel can't be expected to keep tolerating missiles being fired into it. And that's not to say any response is acceptable, but it's important to recognise the was peace for several days and that was broken.

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I’m just seeing both sides as bad as each other with innocent civilians being killed on both sides. Most people seem to be siding with one or the other instead of calling them both out. And governments including our own should have called for a ceasefire sooner.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

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Originally Posted by stevo

I’m just seeing both sides as bad as each other with innocent civilians being killed on both sides. Most people seem to be siding with one or the other instead of calling them both out. And governments including our own should have called for a ceasefire sooner.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

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They should both be called out, but I think morally, consequence wise and in terms of the care they have for their own citizens, Hamas are far far worse. I know where I would rather live.

It's completely true the innocent are caught out on all sides. Was ever thus, sadly.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Whether they did or whether they didn’t, they are a terrorist organisation. The Israeli government are supposedly a democratically elected government, who should know better than to kill 1000s of innocent civilians and cause a humanitarian crisis.

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I think they want all out war

Absolute nutcases

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't entirely disagree with you. But the point is that Hamas broke the ceasefire. Israel can't be expected to keep tolerating missiles being fired into it. And that's not to say any response is acceptable, but it's important to recognise the was peace for several days and that was broken.

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There wasn’t peace for several days - there was a limited and very localised truce that allowed for dozens of hostages to be released, dozens of detainees to be released and a pitiful trickle of aid to get in to Gaza. At the same time the IDF was killing dozens more Palestinians in the West Bank and Hamas killed three Israelis in Jerusalem. It was far from peace - although a step in that direction.

Now we are back to Hamas taking pot shots at the iron dome and the Israelis mass murdering Palestinian civilians in the ‘safe’ south Gaza!

When I was in Tunis on Wednesday the streets were being cleared and barriers erected for what turned out to be a demonstration about what was happening in Gaza.

When I asked a policeman (in poor French) what time the demo was, he asked me if I was going to take part. I pretended that I didn't understand and then his colleague asked me what I thought of the situation. With limited linguistic skills available to me I said that what Israel was doing isn't right but that the same could be said of Hamas, whereupon he replied that Gaza IS Hamas.
When the march took place, complete with Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas, it was a lot smaller than that which took place in Cardiff before the last Saturday home game, which was surprising considering the amount police and barriers involved throughout the centre of the city.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

When I was in Tunis on Wednesday the streets were being cleared and barriers erected for what turned out to be a demonstration about what was happening in Gaza.

When I asked a policeman (in poor French) what time the demo was, he asked me if I was going to take part. I pretended that I didn't understand and then his colleague asked me what I thought of the situation. With limited linguistic skills available to me I said that what Israel was doing isn't right but that the same could be said of Hamas, whereupon he replied that Gaza IS Hamas.
When the march took place, complete with Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas, it was a lot smaller than that which took place in Cardiff before the last Saturday home game, which was surprising considering the amount police and barriers involved throughout the centre of the city.

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Well I think whilst it's good to be optimistic in life I think the situation is doomed

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

When I was in Tunis on Wednesday the streets were being cleared and barriers erected for what turned out to be a demonstration about what was happening in Gaza.

When I asked a policeman (in poor French) what time the demo was, he asked me if I was going to take part. I pretended that I didn't understand and then his colleague asked me what I thought of the situation. With limited linguistic skills available to me I said that what Israel was doing isn't right but that the same could be said of Hamas, whereupon he replied that Gaza IS Hamas.
When the march took place, complete with Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas, it was a lot smaller than that which took place in Cardiff before the last Saturday home game, which was surprising considering the amount police and barriers involved throughout the centre of the city.

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So Hamas (meaning violence) exists to destroy as many Jews as possible (a 1930's narritive) ....and you saw "Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas" - could anything be more ironic?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

So Hamas (meaning violence) exists to destroy as many Jews as possible (a 1930's narritive) ....and you saw "Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas" - could anything be more ironic?

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Many people believe that the Israeli state is oppressive and very right wing

And having their secret service organisations bump off those that don't agree with them isn't very liberal

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

So Hamas (meaning violence) exists to destroy as many Jews as possible (a 1930's narritive) ....and you saw "Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas" - could anything be more ironic?

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Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are known for their humanitarianism and compassion for their fellow man of a different religious persuasion. No irony is involved.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are known for their humanitarianism and compassion for their fellow man of a different religious persuasion. No irony is involved.

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Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Are you incapable of reading what I wrote? Are you really that stupid to fabricate straw man arguments and to misrepresent my comments to fit your own myopic religious agenda?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Are you incapable of reading what I wrote? Are you really that stupid to fabricate straw man arguments and to misrepresent my comments to fit your own myopic religious agenda?

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My comment has NOTHING to do with religion. Simply ACTUAL History.

Hammas, Iran, to name a couple have publicly announced their desire to wipe out an entire nation.
When have Israel done likewise?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

So Hamas (meaning violence) exists to destroy as many Jews as possible (a 1930's narritive) ....and you saw "Israel and USA flags doctored with swastikas" - could anything be more ironic?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Hamas is clearly a violent organisation through the actions of its military wing that committed murder and atrocities on 7 October (although not all the atrocities claimed by the Israeli government after the attack - they made some up). Its various civil organisations are also intolerant of dissent. But the name Hamas does not mean violence, as you surely know.

Hamas is an acronym of the Arabic phrase حركة المقاومة الإسلامية or Ḥarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement". This acronym, HMS, was later glossed in the Hamas Covenan by the Arabic word ḥamās (حماس) which itself means "zeal", "strength", or "bravery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Hamas has also changed its charter from the 1988 one you appear to be quoting to a new one in 2017 that explicitly claimed its enemy is Zionism not Jews and about the same time its leaders accepted the idea of a two state solution and made peace approaches to the (then) Netanyahu government that were ignored.

Most western commentators and governments don't believe the stated intention of the 2017 Charter. I don't think it matters much whether the words are believed or not. It is words and actions together that count. Hamas is violent, Islamist, Israeli-sponsored and funded in its early days (to undermine Fatah) and a part of the Palestinian resistance. it has support from a large section of the Palestinian people in Gaza (some on the West Bank) who see no other way forward as every peaceful route has been violently crushed by Israel or demonised as anti semitic by Israel's allies. But there are also large parts of the Palestinian people in Gaza, the West Bank, Israel and the diaspora who want a different future and a new leadership (not the Palestinian Authority - sub contractors to the Israeli state in the minds of most in the region). Israel has many of the potential alternative leaders in its gaols - many of them in administrative detention - no charge, no trial, no conviction, even by the apartheid military courts. An alternative to Hamas and the PA is possible - but Israel would have to help make that happen. No sign of that.

And on Israel's 'publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation' you must be trying really hard not to hear or read that if you have missed it. The whole Greater Israel project is about ethnically cleansing the Palestinian population and it has driven Israeli state policy from 1948 - and more explicitly since 1967. The daily persecution of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, the 16 year siege of Gaza, the theft of land and homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the periodic 'cutting the grass' purges of Palestinians in Gaza, the murders and destruction carried out by armed settlers in the West Bank (more recently supported by the IDF), the racist and genocidal statements of government ministers in the past year (mainly the fascist ones, but also from within Likud), the litany of war crimes against Palestinian civilians which have ramped up massively since 7 October.

There is also the open discussion amongst Cabinet members about ways to clear Gaza of all Palestinians (and expel them to Jordan, Egypt or elsewhere) and the stated intention (carried through in practice with just a dribble of aid allowed) to deny Gazans power, water, food or sanitation. Many international lawyers believe that Israel has long passed the point where its actions constitute genocide (definition: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group) and that is exactly what you claim not to see from Israel. Your form of Christian Zionism must be blind as well as depraved.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

My comment has NOTHING to do with religion. Simply ACTUAL History.

Hammas, Iran, to name a couple have publicly announced their desire to wipe out an entire nation.
When have Israel done likewise?

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You carry on having your own unilateral argument with yourself. I'll stick to debating with people who clearly see wlth the wrong doing on both sides. As usual, I find it it impossible to have a dialogue with you as you are unbelievable myopic and dogmatic - and you seem to assign sentiments not expressed by posters in the first place.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Hamas is clearly a violent organisation through the actions of its military wing that committed murder and atrocities on 7 October (although not all the atrocities claimed by the Israeli government after the attack - they made some up). Its various civil organisations are also intolerant of dissent. But the name Hamas does not mean violence, as you surely know.

Hamas is an acronym of the Arabic phrase حركة المقاومة الإسلامية or Ḥarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement". This acronym, HMS, was later glossed in the Hamas Covenan by the Arabic word ḥamās (حماس) which itself means "zeal", "strength", or "bravery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Hamas has also changed its charter from the 1988 one you appear to be quoting to a new one in 2017 that explicitly claimed its enemy is Zionism not Jews and about the same time its leaders accepted the idea of a two state solution and made peace approaches to the (then) Netanyahu government that were ignored.

Most western commentators and governments don't believe the stated intention of the 2017 Charter. I don't think it matters much whether the words are believed or not. It is words and actions together that count. Hamas is violent, Islamist, Israeli-sponsored and funded in its early days (to undermine Fatah) and a part of the Palestinian resistance. it has support from a large section of the Palestinian people in Gaza (some on the West Bank) who see no other way forward as every peaceful route has been violently crushed by Israel or demonised as anti semitic by Israel's allies. But there are also large parts of the Palestinian people in Gaza, the West Bank, Israel and the diaspora who want a different future and a new leadership (not the Palestinian Authority - sub contractors to the Israeli state in the minds of most in the region). Israel has many of the potential alternative leaders in its gaols - many of them in administrative detention - no charge, no trial, no conviction, even by the apartheid military courts. An alternative to Hamas and the PA is possible - but Israel would have to help make that happen. No sign of that.

And on Israel's 'publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation' you must be trying really hard not to hear or read that if you have missed it. The whole Greater Israel project is about ethnically cleansing the Palestinian population and it has driven Israeli state policy from 1948 - and more explicitly since 1967. The daily persecution of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, the 16 year siege of Gaza, the theft of land and homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the periodic 'cutting the grass' purges of Palestinians in Gaza, the murders and destruction carried out by armed settlers in the West Bank (more recently supported by the IDF), the racist and genocidal statements of government ministers in the past year (mainly the fascist ones, but also from within Likud), the litany of war crimes against Palestinian civilians which have ramped up massively since 7 October.

There is also the open discussion amongst Cabinet members about ways to clear Gaza of all Palestinians (and expel them to Jordan, Egypt or elsewhere) and the stated intention (carried through in practice with just a dribble of aid allowed) to deny Gazans power, water, food or sanitation. Many international lawyers believe that Israel has long passed the point where its actions constitute genocide (definition: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group) and that is exactly what you claim not to see from Israel. Your form of Christian Zionism must be blind as well as depraved.

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So you have a total of ZERO declarations from Israel to compare with the many public declarations in history against Israel - noted.
As for the word Hamas being nothing to do with violence, then here is the Hebrew from Genesis 6:11, penned at least 3000 years before the group 'Hamas' were even born:-

Attachment 5940

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Publicly announced or not - they’re going a pretty good job of eradicating an entire nation.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

You carry on having your own unilateral argument with yourself. I'll stick to debating with people who clearly see wlth the wrong doing on both sides. As usual, I find it it impossible to have a dialogue with you as you are unbelievable myopic and dogmatic - and you seem to assign sentiments not expressed by posters in the first place.

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Yes, I deal in facts. You lack or deny them. So come back when you have done some proper research.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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As bad as each other.

https://time.com/6334812/israeli-min...condemnations/

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Originally Posted by stevo

Publicly announced or not - they’re going a pretty good job of eradicating an entire nation.

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Thank's for admitting to the fact that Israel has stated no desire to delete an entire nation. Their current determination to remove the snakes head is purely to guarantee the future safety of their people so October 7th cannot be repeated.
Hamas has spent decades (tunnels/ placement of military HQ's) making sure Israels task is messy and prone to maximum Palenstinian casualties to produce the worldwide response they are getting now, not least from many here in this discussion.
Palenstine will survive despite their calous treatment under Hamas, I pray that Hamas will not survive, and that they will get a government that will enable them to prosper and live in peace.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Thank's for admitting to the fact that Israel has stated no desire to delete an entire nation. Their current determination to remove the snakes head is purely to guarantee the future safety of their people so October 7th cannot be repeated.
Hamas has spent decades (tunnels/ placement of military HQ's) making sure Israels task is messy and prone to maximum Palenstinian casualties to produce the worldwide response they are getting now, not least from many here in this discussion.
Palenstine will survive despite their calous treatment under Hamas, I pray that Hamas will not survive, and that they will get a government that will enable them to prosper and live in peace.

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Your dogmatic views are toxic.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

As bad as each other.

https://time.com/6334812/israeli-min...condemnations/

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And here's the context (**below) - so NOT a threat from the leader of Israel, unlike for example of the leader of Iran towards Israel.

**At Monday’s long-planned opening of a United Nations conference whose goal is to establish a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, many ambassadors expressed condemnations and criticisms of comments by Israel’s Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu, who later called his remarks in a radio interview Sunday “metaphorical.” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly disavowed the comments and suspended him from cabinet meetings.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Thank's for admitting to the fact that Israel has stated no desire to delete an entire nation. Their current determination to remove the snakes head is purely to guarantee the future safety of their people so October 7th cannot be repeated.
Hamas has spent decades (tunnels/ placement of military HQ's) making sure Israels task is messy and prone to maximum Palenstinian casualties to produce the worldwide response they are getting now, not least from many here in this discussion.
Palenstine will survive despite their calous treatment under Hamas, I pray that Hamas will not survive, and that they will get a government that will enable them to prosper and live in peace.

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And I haven’t admitted to anything- read my post again.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Yes, I deal in facts. You lack or deny them. So come back when you have done some proper research.

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I haven't denied a single thing, you insufferable idiot. You are obviously incapable of reading properly.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

And here's the context (**below) - so NOT a threat from the leader of Israel, unlike for example of the leader of Iran towards Israel.

**At Monday’s long-planned opening of a United Nations conference whose goal is to establish a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, many ambassadors expressed condemnations and criticisms of comments by Israel’s Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu, who later called his remarks in a radio interview Sunday “metaphorical.” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly disavowed the comments and suspended him from cabinet meetings.

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As I said, as bad as each other.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

As I said, as bad as each other.

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Not even close, but I am not surprised that you and the majority see it as such.
Shalom.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Your dogmatic views are toxic.

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Something sure is.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Something sure is.

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Your response to Jon1959’s post was piss poor. You’ve completely dismissed most of it as it doesn’t fit your narrative. It’s known as confirmation bias.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Not even close, but I am not surprised that you and the majority see it as such.
Shalom.

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You carry on about people saying what they’re going to do, whereas even if we accept what you claim, shouldn’t Israel be judged by their actions? The Palestine/Gaza death toll is way, way above the Israeli one in both the short and long term. How do you justify that?

As bad as each other.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You carry on about people saying what they’re going to do, whereas even if we accept what you claim, shouldn’t Israel be judged by their actions? The Palestine/Gaza death toll is way, way above the Israeli one in both the short and long term. How do you justify that?

As bad as each other.

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An accurate way to sum it up would be to say that neither side is guiltless, every individual on and off the battlefield will be held to account and God's detailed comments on the two key offspring of Abraham and their future plight have played out (as with every jot of Biblical Prophecy) precisely.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Your response to Jon1959’s post was piss poor. You’ve completely dismissed most of it as it doesn’t fit your narrative. It’s known as confirmation bias.

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When extensive research amounts to 'wiki' then we can all pack up.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

When extensive research amounts to 'wiki' then we can all pack up.

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And all your extensive research comes from the bible, right? Enough said.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

When extensive research amounts to 'wiki' then we can all pack up.

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There are thousands of possible sources that all agree on the meaning of the word 'Hamas' - all that say it is an acronym of an Arabic phrase for 'Islamic Resistance Movement'.

But you prefer to reference a similar sounding word in Hebrew from the Old Testament that means something slightly different. We don't all need to pack up - but maybe you should? You are a fundamentalist clown!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

There are thousands of possible sources that all agree on the meaning of the word 'Hamas' - all that say it is an acronym of an Arabic phrase for 'Islamic Resistance Movement'.

But you prefer to reference a similar sounding word in Hebrew from the Old Testament that means something slightly different. We don't all need to pack up - but maybe you should? You are a fundamentalist clown!

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I wonder if this is one of those incidences like the reference to wormwood in the bible (Revelation 8:11): The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.
The name Chernobyl means wormwood in Russian and indeed rivers became contaminated after the release of radioactive material there.

Maybe it is no coincidence that Hamas means 'Islamic Resistance Movement' in Arabic but violence in Hebrew? No-one can deny that Hamas are a pretty violent outfit I think.

700 Palestinians killed in the last 24 hours alone. Shocking pictures of traumatized children on Al Jazeera tonight. Heartbreaking.

But that’s okay because Israel has a right to defend itself, apparently.

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Originally Posted by stevo

But that’s okay because Israel has a right to defend itself, apparently.

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Defend yes.But they are on the attack.

The spokesman for Netanyahu who is regularly on the news is even more of a right wing nutcase than he is

I have admiration for those who think peace is possible in the middle east

I think they should focus on something else though as it's clearly never going to happen with all these headcases in positions of power

Can't get the images of those poor little children out of my mind, some of them are now orphans. Just want to gather them up and bring them home with me.

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Originally Posted by stevo

And all your extensive research comes from the bible, right? Enough said.

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Sure, a Book you would love to see invalidated.
A Book that talks about people like you.
A Book that told us about Bethlehem and the birth of Christ over 700 years before anyone cared about it.
A Book that lists all the current active enemies of Israel and how they will launch their final attack.
A Book that allows science to occasionally catch up with it.
A Book that outsells every other book on the planet, year after year.

So where does your research come from?