The War starts Putin announces "Military Operation" in Ukraine. Explosions heard in Kyiv

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Think it’s very hard to see this war in straightforward left and right terms. Having grown up thinking that the Cold War was a case of left versus right, I find it impossible to place such simplistic definitions this time and was, almost certainly, wrong to do so thirty and forty years ago. It seems to me that those most sympathetic to Putin and anti NATO can be found on the extremes of the political right and left and, whatever the merits of the various claims about Russian influence in Brexit and the 2016 American election, I think it’s safe to say that Putin favoured the more right wing option. Conversely, especially given Trump’s comments on the situation just before the Russian invasion began, it would not surprise me in the least if many of the “patriots” that overran the White House last year are pro Putin and Russia in the current situation.

It was probably ever so, but, for me, this in a conflict between two sides with plenty of blood on their hands, plenty of decisions made against what I’ll naively call the public good and with flawed people at the head of them - the difference for me is that I see only one leader who comes across as a psychopath who I could easily imagine pressing the nuclear button.

It seems to me that “the West” have allowed this situation to develop through a combination of complacency and a desire for a “quiet life” - I make no great claims regarding my insight when it comes to Putin, but I fail to see how any Western leader could not see this coming, the signs that it was were pretty clear after all. The only surprise for me has been how quickly we’ve come to this and the degree to which Putin has gambled his future on Ukraine - it almost makes me believe those claims that he may be seriously ill or dying.

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A fair and balanced view that captures the complexity of the situation. Donbas seems to be the epicentre of the problem with it's many civilian casualties and deaths, and large numbers of refugees fleeing the area after 8 years of war. Without Donbas the Russians wouldn't be in Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

A fair and balanced view that captures the complexity of the situation. Donbas seems to be the epicentre of the problem with it's many civilian casualties and deaths, and large numbers of refugees fleeing the area after 8 years of war. Without Donbas the Russians wouldn't be in Ukraine.

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I've also seen it speculated that Crimea only has gas and electricity supplied to it through Ukraine, and that Russia want to secure the Donbas and the land in-between there and Crimea to be able to connect it with Russia

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It seems to me that “the West” have allowed this situation to develop through a combination of complacency and a desire for a “quiet life” - I make no great claims regarding my insight when it comes to Putin, but I fail to see how any Western leader could not see this coming, the signs that it was were pretty clear after all.

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Regarding this specific point, the US have been involved from the get-go.

<yt-formatted-string force-default-style="" class="style-scope ytd-video-primary-info-renderer" style="word-break: break-word;">Nuland - Pyatt Phone call on Regime Change in Ukraine - 2014</yt-formatted-string>

<yt-formatted-string force-default-style="" class="style-scope ytd-video-primary-info-renderer" style="word-break: break-word;">GOP Senators McCain and Lindsey Graham foment war with Russia</yt-formatted-string>

Energy prices went vertical when markets reopened late last night. They have fallen back since but remain higher than what they closed at last Friday. Crude Oil and Heating Oil are currently plus 6%. https://oilprice.com/

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Maybe, but however wicked and evil Putin's actions against Ukraine are, I refuse to join in the Ukraine love-in. Zelenski came to power in Ukraine on the back of USA and the West's involvement. He's banned newspapers and media that criticizes him, and in the eastern regions the ethnic Russian speakers are being forcibly subsumed into the Ukrainian culture. As for the Nazi bit, when the SS wanted the cruelest, most brutal 'overseers' in the concentration camps, they turned to the Ukrainians. I'm desperately sorry for their plight, but they ain't the nicest of people collectively.

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So you’re judging a country of 42 million by the historical actions of a small minority.
Do you feel the same about Germans and maybe even British people?

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Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw

So you’re judging a country of 42 million by the historical actions of a small minority.
Do you feel the same about Germans and maybe even British people?

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Er, what ? Did you read my brief post ?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Er, what ? Did you read my brief post ?

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You said “they ain’t the nicest collection of people collectively”. That’s a sweeping generalisation of a whole nation based on the actions of a minority, isn’t it?

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Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw

You said “they ain’t the nicest collection of people collectively”. That’s a sweeping generalisation of a whole nation based on the actions of a minority, isn’t it?

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I thought it was a bit sweeping….are all Russians like the Putin sponsored football hooligans/special forces at the euros in France also?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Maybe, but however wicked and evil Putin's actions against Ukraine are, I refuse to join in the Ukraine love-in. Zelenski came to power in Ukraine on the back of USA and the West's involvement. He's banned newspapers and media that criticizes him, and in the eastern regions the ethnic Russian speakers are being forcibly subsumed into the Ukrainian culture. As for the Nazi bit, when the SS wanted the cruelest, most brutal 'overseers' in the concentration camps, they turned to the Ukrainians. I'm desperately sorry for their plight, but they ain't the nicest of people collectively.

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Isn't that a rather absurd generalisation 77 years on from the end of WW2? Regarding the eastern region of Ukraine, I do wonder why the rest of Ukraine didn't just let it go over to the Russian side rather be in state of internal warfare for the last 8 years? I guess it's a bit like the northern Ireland situation where only a fraction of the population would like to be reunited with the rest of the island, it is impossible to please everybody.

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Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw

You said “they ain’t the nicest collection of people collectively”. That’s a sweeping generalisation of a whole nation based on the actions of a minority, isn’t it?

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A minority....80 years ago at that.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

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Isn't that a rather absurd generalisation 77 years on from the end of WW2? Regarding the eastern region of Ukraine, I do wonder why the rest of Ukraine didn't just let it go over to the Russian side rather be in state of internal warfare for the last 8 years? I guess it's a bit like the northern Ireland situation where only a fraction of the population would like to be reunited with the rest of the island, it is impossible to please everybody.

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I wasn't just referring to their historical context, I also highlighted several elements about the current regime/leader of Ukraine.
Obviously this chap doesn't agree :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-60647206

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

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Isn't that a rather absurd generalisation 77 years on from the end of WW2? Regarding the eastern region of Ukraine, I do wonder why the rest of Ukraine didn't just let it go over to the Russian side rather be in state of internal warfare for the last 8 years? I guess it's a bit like the northern Ireland situation where only a fraction of the population would like to be reunited with the rest of the island, it is impossible to please everybody.

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I think the majority in those regions did want to remain as part of Ukraine still, the Russian population was large there but a large minority, the Crimean had a higher percentage Russian

Noam Chomsky interview:

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-c.../#main-content

If Germany had showed some steel and been less selfish over thier desire for a sweat gas deal with its cozy neighbour Russia we wouldn't be here, its as is if Russia had planned this all along and Germany was either complicit or stupid.

A certain Trump fella was shouting about this back in 2019 , as he was with Germans poor contribution to NATO defence budget , both have come to be a dreadful reality , with many dead.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...V3tzEsPng&s=19

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Noam Chomsky interview:

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-c.../#main-content

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A stark commentary yet hugely intelligent in its appraisal. Tough choices lay ahead.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...V3tzEsPng&s=19

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The Cossacks would be appalled .

Cant buy intelligence or decency

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The Cossacks would be appalled .

Cant buy intelligence or decency

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From those interviewed, most Russians believe what their media tells them. Media everywhere is a great tool for shaping their readers and viewers opinions. In that video one says, "No one is bombing Kyiv. I don’t believe it." But plenty outside of Russia believe it is true because media in their countries say so.

One who doesn't believe a word of it is a British bouncer who has been in and around Kyiv for the past few days.

He tells us what we are being told is completely false and stage managed propaganda. He provides plenty of videos he's taken to support what he says at his twitter account.

Illusion Warfare Report:

The Road to Ukraine.

-Join me as I LARP my way onto the Hollywood movie set we know as Ukraine.

Will the matrix allow me to peak behind the curtains of a manufactured and manipulated world staged event?

https://twitter.com/LezLuthor/status...75827161554946

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

From those interviewed, most Russians believe what their media tells them. Media everywhere is a great tool for shaping their readers and viewers opinions. In that video one says, "No one is bombing Kyiv. I don’t believe it." But plenty outside of Russia believe it is true because media in their countries say so.

One who doesn't believe a word of it is a British bouncer who has been in and around Kyiv for the past few days.

He tells us what we are being told is completely false and stage managed propaganda. He provides plenty of videos he's taken to support what he says at his twitter account.

Illusion Warfare Report:

The Road to Ukraine.

-Join me as I LARP my way onto the Hollywood movie set we know as Ukraine.

Will the matrix allow me to peak behind the curtains of a manufactured and manipulated world staged event?

https://twitter.com/LezLuthor/status...75827161554946

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It's kind of sick that you are repeating this bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Already moving to Unionpay which is larger than Mastercard and growing fast.

https://www.reuters.com/business/fin...em-2022-03-06/

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And almost impossible to use in the West.

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

From those interviewed, most Russians believe what their media tells them. Media everywhere is a great tool for shaping their readers and viewers opinions. In that video one says, "No one is bombing Kyiv. I don’t believe it." But plenty outside of Russia believe it is true because media in their countries say so.

One who doesn't believe a word of it is a British bouncer who has been in and around Kyiv for the past few days.

He tells us what we are being told is completely false and stage managed propaganda. He provides plenty of videos he's taken to support what he says at his twitter account.

Illusion Warfare Report:

The Road to Ukraine.

-Join me as I LARP my way onto the Hollywood movie set we know as Ukraine.

Will the matrix allow me to peak behind the curtains of a manufactured and manipulated world staged event?

https://twitter.com/LezLuthor/status...75827161554946

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what an utter load of shite that guy has posted.

he's gone to parts of Ukraine that the Russians haven't reached yet to try to confirm his preconceived agenda that the war is fake.
looking at the rest of his Twitter feed the guy is an absolute loon.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

If Germany had showed some steel and been less selfish over thier desire for a sweat gas deal with its cozy neighbour Russia we wouldn't be here, its as is if Russia had planned this all along and Germany was either complicit or stupid.

A certain Trump fella was shouting about this back in 2019 , as he was with Germans poor contribution to NATO defence budget , both have come to be a dreadful reality , with many dead.

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Oh, **** off. You failed to mention the fact Trump wanted the US to leave NATO too and apparently bomb Russia in a "false flag" operation. If you're even implicitly defending Trump, you're as thick as him. Engage brain before posting utter bollocks, you craven twerp.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

There's no profit in free energy.

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OMG, yes there is.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

what an utter load of shite that guy has posted.

he's gone to parts of Ukraine that the Russians haven't reached yet to try to confirm his preconceived agenda that the war is fake.
looking at the rest of his Twitter feed the guy is an absolute loon.

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He is probably a Russian mercenary or has Russian relatives this is great source for the truth

https://www.bellingcat.com/

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Originally Posted by az city

Oh, **** off. You failed to mention the fact Trump wanted the US to leave NATO too and apparently bomb Russia in a "false flag" operation. If you're even implicitly defending Trump, you're as thick as him. Engage brain before posting utter bollocks, you craven twerp.

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I like Trump new idea of painting USA planes with the Chinese's flag on war planes and fly into Russia to create a false flag war ,man is genius .

Love the way you avoid the first paragraph about Germany

:hehe: