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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
You don't help your argument by linking an opinion piece by Chris Leslie - one of the main instigators of the anti-Corbyn campaign in the PLP before he jumped ship.
There have certainly been a number of anti-semitic social media posts from Labour Party members, and some cowardly threats to MPs and others. Those people should be swiftly expelled and subject to police action if appropriate.
But as I understand the evidence (from a wide variety of sources) most of the anti-semitic trolls cited in the attacks on the Labour Party are lone wolf right wing nutters or members of neo-Nazi organisations (including all of the high profile prosecutions in recent years). A lot of the allegations of anti-semitism from within the Labour Party are scatter gun lists provided by Margaret Hodge and others, where the headline cases are examples of re-tweeting satirical posts (as in the case of Naz Shah MP re-tweeting the Israel as a state of the USA image from a prominent Jewish historian, Norman Finckelstein) or are based on substituting the word 'Jewish' for every reference to 'Zionist' in messages or posts.
The new IHRA definition of anti-semitism which is claimed to be universally accepted (but has been disowned by its author because it has been misused and has still only been adopted by 8 countries) leads to that perverse outcome. In my opinion the two most dangerous and committed Zionists in world politics are Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence - Secretary of State and Vice President of the USA and both Christian Zionists.
When the anti-semitism allegations started to fly during the Labour leadership campaign in 2015 I was shocked. I have since come to accept that some of the claims are real and disgusting (although at a lower level than the racism in the Tory Party) but also totally convinced that the issue has been distorted and 'weaponised' to attack Corbyn.
Ruth Smeeth was given massive TV coverage (again) today to attack the Labour Party and Corbyn on the back of the Jewish Labour Movement vote of no confidence. There is no balance in the coverage. I still remember the YouTube coverage of the Chakrabarti Report launch which she and her friends hijacked by her walk out (Stephen Kinnock a willing side kick) when she claimed Marc Wadsworth had subjected her to anti-semitic abuse. He didn't. She and her allies lied. The video evidence is clear. He challenged her for feeding material to the Daily Telegraph and trying to destroy the party and the leader it had just elected. He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute (after the anti-semitism charge was finally dropped) and she has become another teflon darling of the print and broadcast media.
Most of the high profile cases against left Labour activists are similar to Marc Wadsworth. Tony Greenstein (who I knew well back in the 1980s) was also witch-hunted out for his anti-Zionist blogs. Tony is Jewish. The machine that expelled him and others is much more sympathetic to Ruth Smeeth than to Jeremy Corbyn.
Labour has allegations to answer about individual (real) cases of member racism, and also about the effectiveness of its internal processes - but what this is really all about is something different and much more insidious.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
let mt rephrase for you, a misogynist anti semetic party lead by a marxist. Sorry if the was I wrote it confused anyone.
Maybe you should learn about what a comma is before you get involved in this.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
misogynist
/mɪˈsɒdʒ(ə)nɪst/
noun
1.
a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
"a bachelor and renowned misogynist"
synonyms: woman-hater, anti-feminist, male chauvinist, male supremacist, chauvinist, sexist; More
adjective
1.
relating to or characteristic of a misogynist.
"a misogynist attitude"
So the Labour party (the one with the most female MP's) is mysogynistic in your opinion?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
I never named any party. Others did that. I don't really give a toss, but it was quite enlightening how fast some came to the labour party's defence. Or was it defence of what some seeing it as becoming??
Jon, I accept that is your view and your opinion but I don't accept everything you say, nor am I particularly interested.
This began because of another poster's direct personal attack on me and has nothing to do with this thread, but what I said to him obviously set some of you off. Give it up, we aren't going to agree.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I never named any party. Others did that. I don't really give a toss, but it was quite enlightening how fast some came to the labour party's defence. Or was it defence of what some seeing it as becoming??
Jon, I accept that is your view and your opinion but I don't accept everything you say, nor am I particularly interested.
This began because of another poster's direct personal attack on me and has nothing to do with this thread, but what I said to him obviously set some of you off. Give it up, we aren't going to agree.
Thinly veiled "I'll believe what I want and nothing else will sway me" post IMHO.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Thinly veiled "I'll believe what I want and nothing else will sway me" post IMHO.
Same as almost everybody else really then. Particularly not going to be swayed left or right by anything posted here anyway. That's why I suggested it is given up.
But I don't think it was that thinly veiled, cummon eric?????? :hehe:
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I never named any party. Others did that. I don't really give a toss, but it was quite enlightening how fast some came to the labour party's defence. Or was it defence of what some seeing it as becoming??
Jon, I accept that is your view and your opinion but I don't accept everything you say, nor am I particularly interested.
This began because of another poster's direct personal attack on me and has nothing to do with this thread, but what I said to him obviously set some of you off. Give it up, we aren't going to agree.
Fair enough. This won't go anywhere as a way of changing minds.
For what it's worth I left the Labour Party 6 years ago (after 27 years as a member) and have no organisational ties with them any more. I also have some major problems with the way Corbyn and his circle have led the party. But that is dwarfed in my mind by the positives he brings and by my anger at the dishonest and cynical way he has been attacked from outside and from within.
This isn't aimed at you xnaggle , because you're not interested, but two recent articles by maverick Conservative commentator Peter Oborne are interesting and very relevant to the original subject of the thread, and the campaign to get rid of Corbyn:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...d-think-again/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinio...r-leader-truth
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
Fair enough. This won't go anywhere as a way of changing minds.
For what it's worth I left the Labour Party 6 years ago (after 27 years as a member) and have no organisational ties with them any more. I also have some major problems with the way Corbyn and his circle have led the party. But that is dwarfed in my mind by the positives he brings and by my anger at the dishonest and cynical way he has been attacked from outside and from within.
This isn't aimed at you xnaggle , because you're not interested, but two recent articles by maverick Conservative commentator Peter Oborne are interesting and very relevant to the original subject of the thread, and the campaign to get rid of Corbyn:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...d-think-again/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinio...r-leader-truth
Well Jon, at least now the 2 main parties have something in common, there are factions within each of them that wants desperately to get rid of the person leading them. If they both get ousted they'll probably end up drinking a scotch together in the Lords.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Yes, though marginally. Mainly because most leave voters couldn't give a shit.
I take it you’ve spoken to most of them?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Fair enough. This won't go anywhere as a way of changing minds.
For what it's worth I left the Labour Party 6 years ago (after 27 years as a member) and have no organisational ties with them any more. I also have some major problems with the way Corbyn and his circle have led the party. But that is dwarfed in my mind by the positives he brings and by my anger at the dishonest and cynical way he has been attacked from outside and from within.
This isn't aimed at you xnaggle , because you're not interested, but two recent articles by maverick Conservative commentator Peter Oborne are interesting and very relevant to the original subject of the thread, and the campaign to get rid of Corbyn:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...d-think-again/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinio...r-leader-truth
I actually liked Corbyn. I was far more labour leaning than conservative but this whole brexit debate has turned it upside down for me.
Corbyn who used to wear his heart on his sleeve now seems multi-faced. I don’t know where he stands anymore. I am pro-brexit, and I’m still not sure what Corbyn is.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Thinly veiled "I'll believe what I want and nothing else will sway me" post IMHO.
Is that a wrong way to be? Remain is the known and leave is the unknown to a degree. It could work out fantastically so you need a bit of heart to go along with your head.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I actually liked Corbyn. I was far more labour leaning than conservative but this whole brexit debate has turned it upside down for me.
Corbyn who used to wear his heart on his sleeve now seems multi-faced. I don’t know where he stands anymore. I am pro-brexit, and I’m still not sure what Corbyn is.
Corbyn is quite obviously pro brexit, but he isn't willing to let the working class pay the cost of the financial disruption for it
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I actually liked Corbyn. I was far more labour leaning than conservative but this whole brexit debate has turned it upside down for me.
Corbyn who used to wear his heart on his sleeve now seems multi-faced. I don’t know where he stands anymore. I am pro-brexit, and I’m still not sure what Corbyn is.
So because you don’t like the leader of one of the parties you’ve completely changed your political leanings?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Is that a wrong way to be? Remain is the known and leave is the unknown to a degree. It could work out fantastically so you need a bit of heart to go along with your head.
Virtually every economic expert, all independent fiscal institutions and even the government predict huge problems when we leave, with the harder the Brexit, the harder things will get for us. Even Prof. Minford, a right wing, pro no-deal supporting economist says it'll cost lots of jobs and will give us the chance to align our workforce (lower wages and less rights). Of course, all of these could be wrong. It could work out fantastically, but we're talking about basing an opinion on factual evidence or highly educated opinion, or disregarding those opinions either out of a self-belief that they are wrong or worse. I'm someone who is more interested in listening to educated opinions and facts rather than just believing something because I'm right and everyone else is not.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Is that a wrong way to be? Remain is the known and leave is the unknown to a degree. It could work out fantastically so you need a bit of heart to go along with your head.
What about the lack of life saving medicine we are currently going through though? Even if these magical unicorns appear in 10 years (the opposite of what every economic forecaster has said) is it worth people dying in the mean time?
Your whole argument for it is, it could be great eventually. 1. It almost definitely won’t be, 2. No deal will economically cripple the country, 3. There are many other issues besides the economy that are already happening.
That’s without even mentioning taking freedom of movement away from British working class citizens is ridiculous.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Virtually every economic expert, all independent fiscal institutions and even the government predict huge problems when we leave, with the harder the Brexit, the harder things will get for us. Even Prof. Minford, a right wing, pro no-deal supporting economist says it'll cost lots of jobs and will give us the chance to align our workforce (lower wages and less rights). Of course, all of these could be wrong. It could work out fantastically, but we're talking about basing an opinion on factual evidence or highly educated opinion, or disregarding those opinions either out of a self-belief that they are wrong or worse. I'm someone who is more interested in listening to educated opinions and facts rather than just believing something because I'm right and everyone else is not.
You and Croesy are verging on the hysterical.
Listening to you 2, we may as well just roll over and let the EU do what ever they like.
Do you think the UK will collapse the minute we leave?
I don’t think the powers that be, thought for one minute that the result would be leave, and now the scaremongering is getting to epidemic proportions.
Just as it did when the Scotts had the audacity to go for an independence vote.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
William Treseder
You and Croesy are verging on the hysterical.
Listening to you 2, we may as well just roll over and let the EU do what ever they like.
Do you think the UK will collapse the minute we leave?
I don’t think the powers that be, thought for one minute that the result would be leave, and now the scaremongering is getting to epidemic proportions.
Just as it did when the Scotts had the audacity to go for an independence vote.
There’s literal proof for everything I’ve said. Which bit do you think isn’t true? I can back every single bit up.
Have you ever though it’s you being ignorant of the facts rather than people being hysterical?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Is that a wrong way to be? Remain is the known and leave is the unknown to a degree. It could work out fantastically so you need a bit of heart to go along with your head.
Out of interest, exactly how do you see it working out fantastically? What is the upside in your opinion?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
It’s no wonder people believe brexit is going to be good when you watch that documentary about the illegal vote leave campaign.
Tailor made dark ads that created and spread outrageous lies.
Repeated and viewed by millions of people.
But only targeted at certain people, so they avoided showing them to people they thought would call them out.
Complete manipulation.
It’s no wonder the same people who these ads targeted believe brexit will be great and think everything else is “project fear”. Because that’s exactly what the ads say.
You only have to look at the language of certain posters who are still repeating the phrases used in the ads verbatim.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
You and Croesy are verging on the hysterical.
Listening to you 2, we may as well just roll over and let the EU do what ever they like.
Do you think the UK will collapse the minute we leave?
I don’t think the powers that be, thought for one minute that the result would be leave, and now the scaremongering is getting to epidemic proportions.
Just as it did when the Scotts had the audacity to go for an independence vote.
You can rest assured that you're doing your bit for the pockets of Farage, Banks, Rees-Mogg and so on.
Aren't leavers rolling over and letting them do what they like? Why is it ok for some to fight for what they believe in, but not others?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
lardy
You can rest assured that you're doing your bit for the pockets of Farage, Banks, Rees-Mogg and so on.
Aren't leavers rolling over and letting them do what they like? Why is it ok for some to fight for what they believe in, but not others?
Not really. The leavers won the vote, and the UK will leave the EU. Job done.
You can rest assured that you won’t be lining the pockets much longer of the gravy train mob in the EU 👍
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
It’s no wonder people believe brexit is going to be good when you watch that documentary about the illegal vote leave campaign.
Tailor made dark ads that created and spread outrageous lies.
Repeated and viewed by millions of people.
But only targeted at certain people, so they avoided showing them to people they thought would call them out.
Complete manipulation.
It’s no wonder the same people who these ads targeted believe brexit will be great and think everything else is “project fear”. Because that’s exactly what the ads say.
You only have to look at the language of certain posters who are still repeating the phrases used in the ads verbatim.
Wasn't just online ads that were lies. I received some mail at the time repeating the 350millikn line which by that time was known to be false. And suggesting that turkey were imminently joining the EU and even a map suggestiNg Iraq and Syria were roughly level with southern France, and a lot closer than they actually are.
Attachment 3023
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
It’s not like one person is saying anything like roll over and let the eu do what they like either.
What people are saying is it’s better for Britain to be in the eu from an economic standpoint, a rights standpoint and a health stand point.
Also people need to stop speaking about the eu like it’s some overlord. We are part of the EU and have equal say. Britain has always been one of the most influential countries in the eu, stop believing everything that’s posted on your Facebook and in the sun.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
William Treseder
Not really. The leavers won the vote, and the UK will leave the EU. Job done.
You can rest assured that you won’t be lining the pockets much longer of the gravy train mob in the EU ��
So why was it ok for them to fight for brexit but not ok for others to fight for economic stability and their jobs?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
Not really. The leavers won the vote, and the UK will leave the EU. Job done.
You can rest assured that you won’t be lining the pockets much longer of the gravy train mob in the EU 👍
So because the vote was “won” no one is allowed to say its bad?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
Out of interest, exactly how do you see it working out fantastically? What is the upside in your opinion?
Anyone?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
On an unrelated note, I've just discovered that french overseas territories like Tahiti and Martinique count as part of the EU in terms of freedom of movement, same goes for Dutch and Portuguese overseas possessions
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Ah we are down to the patronising comments about other posters level of education in grammar are we? Never made a typo in your life gave You? Sad sad person ☺
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
You and Croesy are verging on the hysterical.
Listening to you 2, we may as well just roll over and let the EU do what ever they like.
Do you think the UK will collapse the minute we leave?
I don’t think the powers that be, thought for one minute that the result would be leave, and now the scaremongering is getting to epidemic proportions.
Just as it did when the Scotts had the audacity to go for an independence vote.
And, as typical for a leave voter, everything I've stated has been ignored.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
You and Croesy are verging on the hysterical.
Listening to you 2, we may as well just roll over and let the EU do what ever they like.
Do you think the UK will collapse the minute we leave?
I don’t think the powers that be, thought for one minute that the result would be leave, and now the scaremongering is getting to epidemic proportions.
Just as it did when the Scotts had the audacity to go for an independence vote.
If virtually every economist, independent fiscal organisation and the government all predict roughly the same thing, I suspect there's some truth in it.
Fine, if you think you know better without any evidence to back up your opinion, that's up to you. How reckless would the opinions of you and your ilk prove if official predictions come true? You'd still find someone else to blame for things not working.
That's why I ask the question of what is so bad about the current situation that leave voters are prepared to gamble with the economic prosperity of the country and the jobs and livelihoods of normal people?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
Ah we are down to the patronising comments about other posters level of education in grammar are we? Never made a typo in your life gave You? Sad sad person ☺
:hehe:
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
No one cares about typos, you posted a load of incoherent bollocks then used that as a defence when you got called out on it being a load of crap.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
This thread on Twitter by a pro brexit Tory lawyer sums up what has gone wrong with brexit:
https://twitter.com/adrianyalland/st...027949057?s=21
It has been hijacked by the hard brexit lunatics rather than the brexiters who wanted brexit for the good of the country.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
No one cares about typos, you posted a load of incoherent bollocks then used that as a defence when you got called out on it being a load of crap.
Or was it carp?
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
This thread on Twitter by a pro brexit Tory lawyer sums up what has gone wrong with brexit:
https://twitter.com/adrianyalland/st...027949057?s=21
It has been hijacked by the hard brexit lunatics rather than the brexiters who wanted brexit for the good of the country.
But it was hijacked by the Brexit lunatics as soon as the referendum was called. No, in fact, that was why the referendum was proposed and then called. Those who genuinely believe Brexit will be good for the country were either very, very rarely given the platform to say why or had other priorities and didn't speak.
We cannot hold another referendum because this government refuses to acknowledge potential interference and proven illegal activity in the first and therefore any new referendum will be open to same tactics; we cannot progress with the leaving the EU because as soon as that's defined (it wasn't initially) the majority disagree with the terms; we cannot not have a decision or stay in the EU because of how David Cameron described the referendum - a final decision made by the people - when all he wanted was to save his own political party and the anger that has been stoked by hardline brexiteers since the result.
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
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Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Although I don't believe it is accurate, Boycott is a caricature of what the popular view is of a "typical" Leave voter
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Re: Stay in the EU petition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Although I don't believe it is accurate, Boycott is a caricature of what the popular view is of a "typical" Leave voter
If i hadn't have come across this, I think I could have predicted his view quite easily. You can imagine the dressing room when Amiss ran him out :hehe:
