40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Which of my statements from anywhere in this discussion have led you to this conclusion?

(I'll address your other comments after we have cleared this one up).

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Originally Posted by pipster

Did I say that - maybe you could point out where I did ? -

I merely pointed out that it is a war, Hamas have stated many many times they want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, Israel have said the opposite.
As you (probably) know - war is horrible and innocent men women and children get killed - that is horrific. But puffing your chest out on here will not fix it.
It will only end when Hamas have been defeated. Hamas seemed to think by taking 200 hostages that would somehow work out well for them. Israel switched off the power, the food and just about everything else - giving Hamas 2 million hostages to look after.
Hamas wont back down - and most of them are either dead or ran away - leaving the Palestinian people (their people) with nothing

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You either support Israel’s actions or you don’t. There’s no middle ground here.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

God and girlfriend. Not to worry as I am happy to leave it too.

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OK, fair enough - hopefully you got the gist of what I am trying to say! A difficult subject to "analogise" (is there such a word?).

I wonder if any of the contributors to this thread* have stopped to ponder why Hezbollah and Hamas didn't get together and launch simultaneous attacks from Lebanon and Gaza respectively? If they had done so then the IDF would have been caught off guard on two fronts at the same time with even more devastating consequences. Why didn't they?

*Apologies if some did and I've missed them (it is a very long thread!).

Maybe God deliberately got their wires crossed to prevent that scenario from occurring.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Maybe God deliberately got their wires crossed to prevent that scenario from occurring.

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Possibly. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

OK, fair enough - hopefully you got the gist of what I am trying to say! A difficult subject to "analogise" (is there such a word?).

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I think that analogies often obfuscate and are inaccurate, pointless and unhelpful. It's possible to discuss the point being discussed without such red herrings - and likening 'God', the supposed loving, creator of each of us (and arbiter of who enters paradise or gets consigned to eternal hell) with a girlfriend is plainly absurd.
"God is love", after all.......

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I think that analogies often obfuscate and are inaccurate, pointless and unhelpful. It's possible to discuss the point being discussed without such red herrings - and likening 'God', the supposed loving, creator of each of us (and arbiter of who enters paradise or gets consigned to eternal hell) with a girlfriend is plainly absurd.
"God is love", after all.......

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I was hoping that you would realise that likening God's love to that of a girlfriend's was just a well-intentioned analogy - it's the closest I could get! I could have said mother or wife - anyone who loves you very much.

OK so if it's possible to discuss this without the use of analogies, where is the "discussion" element in your response? It rather sounds to me like the rejection of an argument on the usual "it's all absurd anyway" basis as you do not propose any alternative.

OK then let's try this: for "girlfriend" read anyone who shows you unconditional love. If you reject that love you must accept the consequences that go with that decision, yes?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I was hoping that you would realise that likening God's love to that of a girlfriend's was just a well-intentioned analogy - it's the closest I could get! I could have said mother or wife - anyone who loves you very much.

OK so if it's possible to discuss this without the use of analogies, where is the "discussion" element in your response? It rather sounds to me like the rejection of an argument on the usual "it's all absurd anyway" basis as you do not propose any alternative.

OK then let's try this: for "girlfriend" read anyone who shows you unconditional love. If you reject that love you must accept the consequences that go with that decision, yes?

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More of same. A member of my family (a mere human being) does not send anyone to eternal hell if the latter is not convinced of the former's existence and of his or her creating the Universe, Mankind etc. This really is absurd and repetitive.
What next? What if your next door neighbour.......

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I was hoping that you would realise that likening God's love to that of a girlfriend's was just a well-intentioned analogy - it's the closest I could get! I could have said mother or wife - anyone who loves you very much.

OK so if it's possible to discuss this without the use of analogies, where is the "discussion" element in your response? It rather sounds to me like the rejection of an argument on the usual "it's all absurd anyway" basis as you do not propose any alternative.

OK then let's try this: for "girlfriend" read anyone who shows you unconditional love. If you reject that love you must accept the consequences that go with that decision, yes?

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By the way, what do you mean by my proposing an alternative?
An alternative deity? An alternative way that your God can persuade more people of his/her/it's existence?
An alternative way for your God to deal with non-believers?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

More of same. A member of my family (a mere human being) does not send anyone to eternal hell if the latter is not convinced of the former's existence and of his or her creating the Universe, Mankind etc. This really is absurd and repetitive.
What next? What if your next door neighbour.......

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You've missed the point I think. My understanding is that Hell, whatever/wherever that actually is, means, by definition, God is not there. God does not "send" unbelievers to hell, they have chosen to go there because they reject him and therefore should neither expect or want to be where he is surely! This is what I meant by the consequences of our decisions.

Of course, you have free will as I do, so you are free to accept or reject Christianity in the same way as I am. I made my commitment to Jesus Christ in my late 30's, not out of any particular desire for eternal life or as a crutch to get me through life or get me a place at the top table, but because I came to believe in Jesus as God incarnate and that I could share his love with other people as he told us to. This changed my life completely. I am a faith-in-action person and serve in many practical ways. As a fellow believer once confessed to me, even if in the unlikely event that it all turned out to be a load of make-believe in the end, then he would not have regretted one moment of the way of life he had lived.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

By the way, what do you mean by my proposing an alternative?
An alternative deity? An alternative way that your God can persuade more people of his/her/it's existence?
An alternative way for your God to deal with non-believers?

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I meant an alternative analogy to try to explain my thinking about the consequences of rejecting God.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I meant an alternative analogy to try to explain my thinking about the consequences of rejecting God.

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Why do you need an analogy?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

You've missed the point I think. My understanding is that Hell, whatever/wherever that actually is, means, by definition, God is not there. God does not "send" unbelievers to hell, they have chosen to go there because they reject him and therefore should neither expect or want to be where he is surely! This is what I meant by the consequences of our decisions.

Of course, you have free will as I do, so you are free to accept or reject Christianity in the same way as I am. I made my commitment to Jesus Christ in my late 30's, not out of any particular desire for eternal life or as a crutch to get me through life or get me a place at the top table, but because I came to believe in Jesus as God incarnate and that I could share his love with other people as he told us to. This changed my life completely. I am a faith-in-action person and serve in many practical ways. As a fellow believer once confessed to me, even if in the unlikely event that it all turned out to be a load of make-believe in the end, then he would not have regretted one moment of the way of life he had lived.

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It really is a ludicrous concept that unbelievers choose to go to hell. Your omnipotent, loving, forgiving 'God' has deigned it so.
Believe in me (despite any real evidence) or suffer eternal hell. Great stuff from The Great Redeemer's team.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Why do you need an analogy?

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I don't. I find it's useful sometimes to get a point over to someone. If you are ok with my explanation in my latest post then that's fine!

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It really is a ludicrous concept that unbelievers choose to go to hell. Your omnipotent 'God' has deigned it so.

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Not at all - it's a default position. I don't choose to go to heaven. I have recognised I am a sinner and accepted Jesus Christ so I get to go there. Nothing to do with my good works or being born in a Christian country (not that that description applies to the UK anymore of course!) or being "better" than anyone else. Sounds pretty arrogant doesn't it but that is the hard edge of the gospel message I'm afraid! Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, the one who confessed he was a sinner.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Not at all - it's a default position. I don't choose to go to heaven. I have recognised I am a sinner and accepted Jesus Christ so I get to go there. Nothing to do with my good works or being born in a Christian country (not that that description applies to the UK anymore of course!) or being "better" than anyone else. Sounds pretty arrogant doesn't it but that is the hard edge of the gospel message I'm afraid! Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, the one who confessed he was a sinner.

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You are a sinner because your God says you are.
It's the old carrot and stick: you are born a sinner (not because of anything you have done, of course) but you can take your place in Paradise if you believe in me (and we know what happens if you don't).
As for you quoting Jesus when you have no evidence of who he was, what he was or what he may have said. You believe a book that was written way after the events written by unknown authors and based on mythology.
A great many of the Bible stories were taken from prior religions and the Jews themselves don't even believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
Your God exists in an arbitrarily compendium that was collated, edited and amended at different junctures, it's contradictory and factually wrong about many things (and the Christian church tortured and/or persecuted scientists such as Galileo, Ptolomy and Kepler for stating what are now considered to be scientific facts contrary to the infantilising explanations of astronomy in your favoured tome.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

You are a sinner because your God says you are.
It's the old carrot and stick: you are born a sinner, not because of anything you have done, but you can take your place in Paradise if you believe in me.
As for you quoting Jesus, you have no evidence whatsoever of such things. You believe a book that was written way after the events written by unknown authors and based on mythology.
A great many of the Bible stories were taken from prior religions and the Jews themselves don't even believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
Your God exists in an arbitrarily compendium collated, edited and amended at different junctures, it's contradictory and factually wrong about many things (and the Christian church tortured and/or persecuted scientists such as Galileo, Ptolomy and Kepler for stating what are now considered to be scientific facts contrary to the infantilising explanations of astronomy in your favoured tome.

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Sorry, it's not a cop-out but I am just too tired to go through all these points you raise once again, these we have debated time and time again in various threads. You know my position and I know yours. I have always tried to be respectful of your viewpoint even though I obviously don't agree with it. Maybe when I'm next down your way (I have a relative near Exeter so am occasionally driving down the M5 past Taunton) we could have a coffee and a face-to-face chat in Taunton Deane services!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Of course, you have free will as I do, so you are free to accept or reject Christianity in the same way as I am. I made my commitment to Jesus Christ in my late 30's, not out of any particular desire for eternal life or as a crutch to get me through life or get me a place at the top table, but because I came to believe in Jesus as God incarnate and that I could share his love with other people as he told us to. This changed my life completely. I am a faith-in-action person and serve in many practical ways. As a fellow believer once confessed to me, even if in the unlikely event that it all turned out to be a load of make-believe in the end, then he would not have regretted one moment of the way of life he had lived.

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That bit at least makes sense to me.

I am an atheist and I don't share your faith or beliefs. I walked away from Christianity when I was 12 (the age when the Congregationalists did their 'church membership' discussions with impressionable pre-teens - and I turned out not to be impressed).

But my dad was completely involved with his church all his life - including all the weekend and mid-week discussion groups. I argued with him all my life until his death - but I did admire his stance. As far as I know he never believed in heaven or hell, or God or the devil. He treated most of it as metaphor.

He described himself as a church-going secular Christian, and along with a group of like-minded people called themselves 'the heretics'. They were always falling out with the minister because they thought he/she (there were a few of them) were too literal and too religious. He didn't really care if the bible was true or not (he certainly didn't believe in talking snakes or miracles) but he took what was useful as a framework for living 'a good life'. His view was that Christianity - at least in Western Europe - had defined the history and culture of the people he came from and lived amongst, and it made sense to use that to shape his own ethics and values - and to use the best version of Christianity to illustrate and explain that.

As i said, I don't agree with that approach and argued with him for nearly half a century, but I can understand and to some extent respect his choice. (My mam just went to church because she was conditioned to do that).

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Sorry, it's not a cop-out but I am just too tired to go through all these points you raise once again, these we have debated time and time again in various threads. You know my position and I know yours. I have always tried to be respectful of your viewpoint even though I obviously don't agree with it. Maybe when I'm next down your way (I have a relative near Exeter so am occasionally driving down the M5 past Taunton) we could have a coffee and a face-to-face chat in Taunton Deane services!

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OK. It's just that when people come on here quoting the alleged words of the Christian God or Jesus, it's difficult not to challenge - and on a thousand fronts. Enjoy your next trip to Exeter.
At least you are not as lunatic as your fellow believer on here who fabricates quotes by other posters.....

To bring it back to the thread topic:


Attachment 5953

This is almost 3 weeks out of date, but.....

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

OK. It's just that when people come on here quoting the alleged words of the Christian God or Jesus, it's difficult not to challenge - and on a thousand fronts. Enjoy your next trip to Exeter.
At least you are not as lunatic as your fellow believer on here who fabricates quotes by other posters.....

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Feeling neglected? You don't have to whine, simply put up your example and if it's a genuine mistake I'll be happy to apologise; in any case I do think you could add a little respect when interacting with your fellow City fans, no matter how much they challenge your 'under the sun' faith.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Sure, if we casually ignore one groups publically expressed desire for the extermination of an entire nation?

If there is nothing to choose between them, please post Israel's publicly announced desire to eradicate an entire nation.....?

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Respect? You falsely accused some of us of anti-semitism.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Respect? You falsely accused some of us of anti-semitism.

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That's a good starter.

Some time back in this massive thread I mentioned that I intended to write to my M.P. about Palestinian children who have been orphaned during this war and suggest that maybe it would be possible to set up some kind of "Kindertransport" system as was done in WW2 for Jewish children. Well I have done that and also written to James Cleverly in his capacity as the new Home Secretary. No response as yet (apart from the usual automated reply) but I guess they are rather busy people right now!

Interestingly I saw today that someone has started a petition on Change.org which is along similar lines:

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

When I wrote to my M.P. I could not quote any figures about the number of orphan children as I could not find any data but now I see according to the petition there are at least 2000.

I would like to ask CCMB members to consider signing the petition as a means of doing something practical rather than just debate the issues on this message board! So far over 102,000 people have signed.

Thanks.

Gofer.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Some time back in this massive thread I mentioned that I intended to write to my M.P. about Palestinian children who have been orphaned during this war and suggest that maybe it would be possible to set up some kind of "Kindertransport" system as was done in WW2 for Jewish children. Well I have done that and also written to James Cleverly in his capacity as the new Home Secretary. No response as yet (apart from the usual automated reply) but I guess they are rather busy people right now!

Interestingly I saw today that someone has started a petition on Change.org which is along similar lines:

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

When I wrote to my M.P. I could not quote any figures about the number of orphan children as I could not find any data but now I see according to the petition there are at least 2000.

I would like to ask CCMB members to consider signing the petition as a means of doing something practical rather than just debate the issues on this message board! So far over 102,000 people have signed.

Thanks.

Gofer.

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Signed.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Some time back in this massive thread I mentioned that I intended to write to my M.P. about Palestinian children who have been orphaned during this war and suggest that maybe it would be possible to set up some kind of "Kindertransport" system as was done in WW2 for Jewish children. Well I have done that and also written to James Cleverly in his capacity as the new Home Secretary. No response as yet (apart from the usual automated reply) but I guess they are rather busy people right now!

Interestingly I saw today that someone has started a petition on Change.org which is along similar lines:

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

When I wrote to my M.P. I could not quote any figures about the number of orphan children as I could not find any data but now I see according to the petition there are at least 2000.

I would like to ask CCMB members to consider signing the petition as a means of doing something practical rather than just debate the issues on this message board! So far over 102,000 people have signed.

Thanks.

Gofer.

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Great post,signed

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Some time back in this massive thread I mentioned that I intended to write to my M.P. about Palestinian children who have been orphaned during this war and suggest that maybe it would be possible to set up some kind of "Kindertransport" system as was done in WW2 for Jewish children. Well I have done that and also written to James Cleverly in his capacity as the new Home Secretary. No response as yet (apart from the usual automated reply) but I guess they are rather busy people right now!

Interestingly I saw today that someone has started a petition on Change.org which is along similar lines:

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

When I wrote to my M.P. I could not quote any figures about the number of orphan children as I could not find any data but now I see according to the petition there are at least 2000.

I would like to ask CCMB members to consider signing the petition as a means of doing something practical rather than just debate the issues on this message board! So far over 102,000 people have signed.

Thanks.

Gofer.

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Signed

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

That's a good starter.

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Nice try, unfortunately you accused me of fabricating a quote from someone?
So either apologise or post the 'misquote' (!!)??

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Nice try, unfortunately you accused me of fabricating a quote from someone?
So either apologise or post the 'misquote' (!!)??

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No mistake here, old fruit. Check your messages on here. By the way, who are the anti-semistists on here that you mentioned?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Signed.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Great post,signed

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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Signed

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Thanks.

What is the UN Resolution to a ceasefire about? Means nothing? When you have the Russians voting for it after what they’ve done and continue to do in Ukraine makes it not worth the paper it’s written on? What’s the point of it…..:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

No mistake here, old fruit. Check your messages on here. By the way, who are the anti-semistists on here that you mentioned?

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I have made hundreds of comments, yet you have no examples at all, you are all froth :hehe:

TP and TBG - any chance of signing the petition please?

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

Thanks. Apologies if you have already done so.

P.S. Total signatures now nearly 105,000, up 3,000.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b020f3b673fce3

Israel's total, contemptuous, public rejection of a two state solution means a continuation of the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem - and a massive challenge to Biden.

For the Netanyahu government a one state, Zionist Greater Israel, is the only outcome they will accept. No concerns for peace, Palestinians or the hostility of most of the world.

I expect Biden will cave in and keep the military hardware flowing, but will look even weaker as a result!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

TP and TBG - any chance of signing the petition please?

https://www.change.org/p/welcome-pal...-into-uk-homes

Thanks. Apologies if you have already done so.

P.S. Total signatures now nearly 105,000, up 3,000.

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No problem, have done :thumbup: