Football - is the bubble about to burst ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

That's what I am saying

You dont see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore like we did in the old days

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This is completely false, where do you sit in the ground? The Canton stand's full of groups of youngsters

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Amazon , sky and the other tossers dont care about the fans

The clubs could charge next to nothing in the premier league and still do it


Football has become an americanised bloody product , together with hot dogs and offensive formations etc

Modern football is complete bollocks and in twenty years crowds will be very different

The demographic is rapidly changing , football teams are losing their traditional supporter base and becoming middle class playthings

That's not a problem for liverpool or man united as there are loads of lemmings lining up

But for everyone else outside the top four or five clubs it's very worrying indeed

David Conn wrote the book searching for the soul of football many years and predicted one day it would all come crashing down

In effect it has already , with the internet and sky etc many people now follow their club , whom previously they would home and away , from their armchair

And who can bloody blame them with the cost of modern football being gobbled up in players wages

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Attachment 3563

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I understood what you were saying. I just don't agree with it and don't believe there is any evidence for it either.

Attendances have been declared based on ticket sales rather than the number of people who actually turn up for many, many years. If there is a difference now, I think it's that season tickets have become more attractively priced at many clubs (including Cardiff City). Therefore, there are more season ticket holders than there used to be and such people won't always turn up for games.

I've noticed that's very much in the case in my local, where there are definitely more season ticket holders than ever before and the declared attendances reflect that. However, as we know, plenty don't turn up for every game.

If you look at City's attendances for equivalent Saturday home games at this time of year during the last five Championship campaigns, the figures are as follows:

2014/15 v Wolves = 21,165
2015/16 v Preston = 15,566
2016/17 v Fulham = 15,656
2017/18 v Middlesbrough = 18,720
2019/20 v Brentford = 22,393

Just like 2014/15, when there was an increased number of season ticket holders following relegation from the Premier League, the figure yesterday was larger than average for this time of year. I don't know what the actual physical attendance was yesterday, but it looked to me to be around the 16,000 to 17,000 mark, which would be bigger than 2015/16 and 2016/17, and slightly down on 2017/18 when the side was challenging for automatic promotion.

From my perspective, those figures all look to be about right and don't indicate that this season is one of a decline in attendances. In the Premier League there were more than 52,000 at Newcastle v Burnley yesterday, while the attendance for West Ham v Southampton was just short of 60,000. That doesn't suggest to me that the 'football bubble' is bursting.

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I'd imagine the weather/flooding impacted yesterday aswell

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

That's what I am saying

You dont see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore like we did in the old days

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This is just objectively wrong. Do you sit in the family stand or something?

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Originally Posted by Llandaff Blue

This is just objectively wrong. Do you sit in the family stand or something?

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Prove it by telling me the number of season ticket holders we have 16 to say 18

If I am wrong I am happy to admit it

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Originally Posted by delmbox

This is completely false, where do you sit in the ground? The Canton stand's full of groups of youngsters

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Prove it with figures

The Canton was designated a standing and singing area so youngsters are naturally going to gather there

But to say the canton stand is full of youngsters isn't true , in my opinion

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I understood what you were saying. I just don't agree with it and don't believe there is any evidence for it either.

Attendances have been declared based on ticket sales rather than the number of people who actually turn up for many, many years. If there is a difference now, I think it's that season tickets have become more attractively priced at many clubs (including Cardiff City). Therefore, there are more season ticket holders than there used to be and such people won't always turn up for games.

I've noticed that's very much in the case in my local, where there are definitely more season ticket holders than ever before and the declared attendances reflect that. However, as we know, plenty don't turn up for every game.

If you look at City's attendances for equivalent Saturday home games at this time of year during the last five Championship campaigns, the figures are as follows:

2014/15 v Wolves = 21,165
2015/16 v Preston = 15,566
2016/17 v Fulham = 15,656
2017/18 v Middlesbrough = 18,720
2019/20 v Brentford = 22,393

Just like 2014/15, when there was an increased number of season ticket holders following relegation from the Premier League, the figure yesterday was larger than average for this time of year. I don't know what the actual physical attendance was yesterday, but it looked to me to be around the 16,000 to 17,000 mark, which would be bigger than 2015/16 and 2016/17, and slightly down on 2017/18 when the side was challenging for automatic promotion.

From my perspective, those figures all look to be about right and don't indicate that this season is one of a decline in attendances. In the Premier League there were more than 52,000 at Newcastle v Burnley yesterday, while the attendance for West Ham v Southampton was just short of 60,000. That doesn't suggest to me that the 'football bubble' is bursting.

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We'll agree to disagree.
As you know historically football attendances have ebbed and flowed - two World Wars saw increases, football hooliganism saw dramatic falls, and then steady growth for 20 yrs which was as much to do with the media saturation of football as 'the sport for everyone'. There will come a time when the trend starts to change - very slightly at first, but once it starts It'll continue for a long time. I base my comments on what I see on my TV this season compared to last, ie gaps in the stand at PL games and very small gates at Championship games in midweek. ST sales may have held up this year for most clubs but I really do think that next season the evidence may prove more visible..

Gosh no it's the most marketable sport on the planet ,we may not like how it effects our level but all around the world millions watch and support it .

Yesterday's game was badly affected by weather, train cancellations , and the two games in one week costs ,and older folk probably concerned about flu /cold risks .

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Prove it with figures

The Canton was designated a standing and singing area so youngsters are naturally going to gather there

But to say the canton stand is full of youngsters isn't true , in my opinion

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Obviously I haven't got the breakdown of season ticket holders by age, why the hell would I.

You said "you don't see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore" and I'm telling you there's loads of groups of youngsters in the Canton Stand. It's not exclusively them, of course not, but there's absolutely loads of groups of youngsters there. And that's not an opinion, that's fact because I share the stand with them week in, week out.

You didn't answer the question either - which stand is your ticket in Sludge? It might have a bearing on your take on this

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Plus with the terracing the younger element tended to group together.

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Trying to identify if there are groups of youngsters in seats is a lot more problematic than just looking at them congregated together on a terrace

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Obviously I haven't got the breakdown of season ticket holders by age, why the hell would I.

You said "you don't see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore" and I'm telling you there's loads of groups of youngsters in the Canton Stand. It's not exclusively them, of course not, but there's absolutely loads of groups of youngsters there. And that's not an opinion, that's fact because I share the stand with them week in, week out.

You didn't answer the question either - which stand is your ticket in Sludge? It might have a bearing on your take on this

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It's not fact its anecdotal , unless next home game you are prepared to do some sort of rudimentary head count

The best way to prove things either way would be to contact the club

As for me this season and in seasons past I have been in the canton , ninian and grandstand

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's not fact its anecdotal , unless next home game you are prepared to do some sort of rudimentary head count

The best way to prove things either way would be to contact the club

As for me this season and in seasons past I have been in the canton , ninian and grandstand

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If you think that I care enough about this thread to get in touch with the club and ask for a breakdown of the fanbase age you're off your head :hehe:

I refer again though to your statement "you don't see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore" - the fact is that I do see groups of youngsters at the ground every game. Unless what you mean is you don't see as many groups of youngsters at the ground anymore, which is a different thing and I don't know if that's true or not. But to my eye there are plenty of youngsters

Late to the discussion but look at the viewing figures for football on sky and BT they are microscopic in terms of % of overall population. There are still lots of foreign viewers so via tv deals the money is coming in.

When football is shown on terrestrial tv it’s watched by millions (England and FA cup games get huge viewing figures on bbc and itv)

I wouldn’t say the bubble is about to burst but unless football on tv gets easier to access the interest in watching live games will decrease too.

Empty stadia make the product a lot less marketable too. Good luck selling “best in the world” matches to Asia when a third of the grounds are empty every week.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Obviously I haven't got the breakdown of season ticket holders by age, why the hell would I.

You said "you don't see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore" and I'm telling you there's loads of groups of youngsters in the Canton Stand. It's not exclusively them, of course not, but there's absolutely loads of groups of youngsters there. And that's not an opinion, that's fact because I share the stand with them week in, week out.

You didn't answer the question either - which stand is your ticket in Sludge? It might have a bearing on your take on this

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In fairness to sludge there is proof that the majority of live football in the U.K. is watched in the over 40 age ranges. Kids are being priced out or aren’t as interested any more due to the lack of free to air games.

If you look at viewing figures and ages of attendees something in football has to change.

The champions league will be the first, no ****er in this country is watching it. Not because of lack of interest but because no one has BT sport.

They’ve had under a million viewers for some games.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

If you think that I care enough about this thread to get in touch with the club and ask for a breakdown of the fanbase age you're off your head :hehe:

I refer again though to your statement "you don't see groups of youngsters at the ground anymore" - the fact is that I do see groups of youngsters at the ground every game. Unless what you mean is you don't see as many groups of youngsters at the ground anymore, which is a different thing and I don't know if that's true or not. But to my eye there are plenty of youngsters

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Anyone who's been to an away game in the past 3/4 years knows we have a large amount of younger supporters. In fact its probably more than went in the glorious past Sludge is on about

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Originally Posted by City123

Anyone who's been to an away game in the past 3/4 years knows we have a large amount of younger supporters. In fact its probably more than went in the glorious past Sludge is on about

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I very much doubt it

Our away support is nothing like it used to be

We used to take thousands away , even in division two , under hamamm

I remember being up at oldham and we had 4000 there when Andy Campbell got hit by a pie

Three to four thousand to reading , stoke , 3000 to forest , we dont take those numbers now and there certainly isn't a predominance of youngsters , not according to the people I know who run buses

Nick hornby , in fever pitch , wrote how the age range of supporters was changing and young men were being priced out of the game

David Conn , in searching for the soul of football , also said the arrival of modern stadium, expensive seating and an overall price increase meant young people and those on low incomes .....ie the young and families were also suffering

It's no surprise that our family section is hardly ever full

These are the findings of two authors , one a very well respected writer on the game

Not a few people on a message board who look around them and in the few seats they are able to see from their vantage point decide that cardiff city have loads of youngsters following them , it just isn't the case , we mirror probably every club outside of the premier league top five

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I very much doubt it

Our away support is nothing like it used to be

We used to take thousands away , even in division two , under hamamm

I remember being up at oldham and we had 4000 there when Andy Campbell got hit by a pie

Three to four thousand to reading , stoke , 3000 to forest , we dont take those numbers now and there certainly isn't a predominance of youngsters , not according to the people I know who run buses

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I meant we probably have more younger fans at home games than we did then

Our average attendance in our last season in the 4th tier was just under 8,000, our average in our last season in the third tier was 13,000. This season we're averaging 23,000, last season over 30,000. It isn't a huge leap to think that maybe amongst that extra 15,000-20,000 there's going to be some younger fans, particularly when you consider the hit we took over the rebrand

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Nick hornby , in fever pitch , wrote how the age range of supporters was changing and young men were being priced out of the game

David Conn , in searching for the soul of football , also said the arrival of modern stadium, expensive seating and an overall price increase meant young people and those on low incomes .....ie the young and families were also suffering

It's no surprise that our family section is hardly ever full

These are the findings of two authors , one a very well respected writer on the game

Not a few people on a message board who look around them and in the few seats they are able to see from their vantage point decide that cardiff city have loads of youngsters following them , it just isn't the case , we mirror probably every club outside of the premier league top five

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A season ticket in the Canton Stand for someone aged between 16 and 21 at Cardiff City is £99. That's £4.30 per home game.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Late to the discussion but look at the viewing figures for football on sky and BT they are microscopic in terms of % of overall population. There are still lots of foreign viewers so via tv deals the money is coming in.

When football is shown on terrestrial tv it’s watched by millions (England and FA cup games get huge viewing figures on bbc and itv)

I wouldn’t say the bubble is about to burst but unless football on tv gets easier to access the interest in watching live games will decrease too.

Empty stadia make the product a lot less marketable too. Good luck selling “best in the world” matches to Asia when a third of the grounds are empty every week.

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I doubt a top Serie game gets much of a TV audience for that reason..

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Nick hornby , in fever pitch , wrote how the age range of supporters was changing and young men were being priced out of the game

David Conn , in searching for the soul of football , also said the arrival of modern stadium, expensive seating and an overall price increase meant young people and those on low incomes .....ie the young and families were also suffering

It's no surprise that our family section is hardly ever full

These are the findings of two authors , one a very well respected writer on the game

Not a few people on a message board who look around them and in the few seats they are able to see from their vantage point decide that cardiff city have loads of youngsters following them , it just isn't the case , we mirror probably every club outside of the premier league top five

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I'm at the top of the Canton and can see hundreds of seats, there's yoof as far as the eye can see.

Also I'm not sure that a fictional novel about Arsenal from 1992 is a better source of evidence about Cardiff City youth attendances than the word of those who go to games every week to be honest, but I admire your sheer balls in trying to use it. Tune in next week when Sludge claims that 50 Shades of Grey indisputably proves that Murphy should start more often.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I'm at the top of the Canton and can see hundreds of seats, there's yoof as far as the eye can see.

Also I'm not sure that a fictional novel about Arsenal from 1992 is a better source of evidence about Cardiff City youth attendances than the word of those who go to games every week to be honest, but I admire your sheer balls in trying to use it. Tune in next week when Sludge claims that 50 Shades of Grey indisputably proves that Murphy should start more often.

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In fairness you probably sit in an area of the group most likely to have a high percentage of kids.

Away games I always think the over 40s make up the highest percentage. I think there are a lot of kids there but the majority are definitely getting on in years.

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The average age of match-going football supporters has increased dramatically over the last 50 years; that is undeniable. In his magnificent state-of-the-nation book And The Sun Shines Now, Adrian Tempany reports that the age of an average fan in the Stretford End at Old Trafford rose from 17 in 1968 to 40 in 2008. At St James’ Park, the average age rose from 35 to 45 in a decade. Same old faces; no new faces.

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https://www.football365.com/news/wan...-football-fans

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

In fairness you probably sit in an area of the group most likely to have a high percentage of kids.

Away games I always think the over 40s make up the highest percentage. I think there are a lot of kids there but the majority are definitely getting on in years.

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I'm not saying there's more youths than over 40's, or even over 30's. Sludge said you don't see groups of youths at City games anymore. I'm saying that's not true, regardless of Nick Hornby's opinion.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Amazon , sky and the other tossers dont care about the fans

The clubs could charge next to nothing in the premier league and still do it


Football has become an americanised bloody product , together with hot dogs and offensive formations etc

Modern football is complete bollocks and in twenty years crowds will be very different

The demographic is rapidly changing , football teams are losing their traditional supporter base and becoming middle class playthings

That's not a problem for liverpool or man united as there are loads of lemmings lining up

But for everyone else outside the top four or five clubs it's very worrying indeed

David Conn wrote the book searching for the soul of football many years and predicted one day it would all come crashing down

In effect it has already , with the internet and sky etc many people now follow their club , whom previously they would home and away , from their armchair

And who can bloody blame them with the cost of modern football being gobbled up in players wages

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This article pretty much shows that. From 2016/17 season so probably even worse now..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888