Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
It doesn’t depend on anything. Hamas started this latest feud by bombing Israel in 2023.
I always preface anything I say on what Hamas did on 7 October 2023 by stating that it was shocking and indefensible, but there is a context here - Israel didn't jump from. peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians pre 7/10 to all out aggression after it.
This extract
"Even before Hamas’ attack on October 7, Israeli forces had already killed 234 Palestinians in the West Bank this year, while settlers were responsible for nine more killings."
from this article
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...st-year-record
referring to 2023 shows that there was around one Palestinian a day being killed by Israeli troops or settlers before 7 October, following on from a reported 204 in 2022.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...lers-2022-enar
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
referring to 2023 shows that there was around one Palestinian a day being killed by Israeli troops or settlers before 7 October, following on from a reported 204 in 2022.
The report also mentions the reason for many attacks and executions by the IDF: "the victims had either completed or attempted a stabbing or vehicular assault against Israelis near Israeli checkpoints or hotspots".
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
The report also mentions the reason for many attacks and executions by the IDF: "the victims had either completed or attempted a stabbing or vehicular assault against Israelis near Israeli checkpoints or hotspots".
What you’re saying then is that about a third of Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israeli forces might have been justified.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
What you’re saying then is that about a third of Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israeli forces might have been justified.
I made no such claim. In such a conflict who can start to put accurate figures on justified killings?; all we have are reports like these.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
I made no such claim. In such a conflict who can start to put accurate figures on justified killings?; all we have are reports like these.
What the report’s doing is saying that around a third of Palestinian deaths in 2022 at the hands of Israeli forces or settlers could maybe be out down to a response to provocation, but two thirds of them seem to be ourely arbitrary and you’d think the proportion has risen since 7/10/23.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Most of the states neighbouring Israel and Palestine have rulers who consistently act in their material self interest. But they also have populations who in large majorities support the Palestinian people in the face of systemic discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Most of the rulers are responding to the opinions of their public.
They also understand international law and the concept of ‘crimes against humanity’ even if their own record on that stinks.
It is interesting to see who is shining a light on neighbouring states for supposedly not taking in the population of Gaza - even if that was wanted or possible with millions of refugees already inside their borders and a genocidal siege underway.
Those same posters are silent when it comes to the state (and its allies and enablers) that have created this humanitarian crisis (as a deliberate policy according to its political and military leadership) have failed in every responsibility they have as an occupying power, have ignored and sneered at international law and have boasted about their war crimes.
Gofer seems genuinely concerned about individual child victims - but not enough to break ranks with Truthpaste and his odious, racist, victim blaming views.
The solution lies within Israel/Palestine with aid, medical care, temporary shelters, rebuilding the neighbourhoods that have been levelled, security from an international force. It also requires an end to apartheid and the violence of illegal settlements and a political settlement that gives peace, justice and equal rights to people of all races and religions (or none) within one state or if necessary, two states.
But that is not the message from Trump’s White House or from the book of Stone Age foundation myths that inform the cult thinking on here.
I am genuinely concerned about the ENTIRE Gaza situation but with particular concern for all the Palestinian children who are the innocents in this adult-made catastrophe, which is why I support FAJR for example. I strongly object to your assertion that I have odious, racist and victim blaming views. I am not so totally blinkered that I cannot see the situation from both sides. If that makes me an odious victim-blaming racist in your eyes, then so be it.
It seems to me that your opening paragraphs are a complete contradiction. You say most of the neighbouring states have rulers who are responding to the opinions of their public (who apparently have large majorities in support of the Palestinian people you say), but at the same time these rulers consistently act in their material self interest, presumably then NOT in response to the public opinion in their countries? Please explain.
The bottom line is that there will never be real peace whilst there is such hatred in the hearts of the people on both sides of the divide. No amount of political activity alone will resolve this.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
I am genuinely concerned about the ENTIRE Gaza situation but with particular concern for all the Palestinian children who are the innocents in this adult-made catastrophe, which is why I support FAJR for example. I strongly object to your assertion that I have odious, racist and victim blaming views. I am not so totally blinkered that I cannot see the situation from both sides. If that makes me an odious victim-blaming racist in your eyes, then so be it.
It seems to me that your opening paragraphs are a complete contradiction. You say most of the neighbouring states have rulers who are responding to the opinions of their public (who apparently have large majorities in support of the Palestinian people you say), but at the same time these rulers consistently act in their material self interest, presumably then NOT in response to the public opinion in their countries? Please explain.
The bottom line is that there will never be real peace whilst there is such hatred in the hearts of the people on both sides of the divide. No amount of political activity alone will resolve this.
I think the Truthpaste view that Palestinians are squatters, do not exist as a people, and that ‘the chosen people’ have some kind of Divine right to remove (ethnically cleanse) them from their land as part of a deal with his/your god 3000 years ago is absolutely odious and racist.
That extends to much of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the Sinai. Truthpaste makes clear that removing the Palestinians from the occupied territories is only a small fraction of the land grab he has seen endorsed in the Old Testament.
You have never challenged that and drop into a regular ‘scriptural’ double act with him that appears to me to endorse that view. You appear to have a genuine and deep concern for child victims but also support ‘solutions’ that aid the Israeli (and Christian Zionist) project - one that is a clear ‘crime against humanity’ under international law. Your choice.
You are right that I described a tension or contradiction in the actions of the rulers of neighbouring states. Their self interest must also take account of pressure from below. Six years ago the House of Saud was all in with the Abraham Accords brokered by Jared Kushner - to abandon the Palestinians in return for more arms, more trade and more favour from Trump’s USA. Now popular revulsion over Gaza has forced them to back off.
Only political activity - and a political resolution with international backing - will end the crisis.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rump-gaza-plan
More than 350 rabbis, alongside additional signatories including Jewish creatives and activists, have signed an ad in the New York Times in which they condemn Donald Trump’s proposal for the effective ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza.
The ad, which was signed by rabbis including Sharon Brous, Roly Matalon and Alissa Wise, as well as Jewish creatives and activists including Tony Kushner, Ilana Glazer, Naomi Klein and Joaquin Phoenix, says: “Trump has called for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza. Jewish people say no to ethnic cleansing!”
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Cody Edgerly, director of the In Our Name Campaign and one of the organizers of the ad, said it came at “a critical time as political redlines that were once thought immovable are rapidly shifting as the Trump-Netanyahu alliance takes hold again”.
He said it had been “heartening to witness such a rapid outpouring of support from across the denominational and political spectrum”, adding: “Our message to Palestinians is that you are not alone, our attention has not wavered, and we are committed to fighting with every breath we have to stop ethnic cleansing in Gaza.”
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Trump’s proposal – which has evoked the painful legacy of the 1948 Nakba, during which hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcibly displaced from their homes by Zionist paramilitaries – was described as an “insidious plan” by rabbi Toba Spitzer.
In a news release accompanying the ad, Spitzer, senior rabbi of congregation Dorshei Tzedek in Newton, Massachusetts, said: “It is vitally important that we in the American Jewish community add our voices to all those refusing to entertain this insidious plan. Hitler’s dream of making Germany ‘Judenrein,’ ‘cleansed of Jews,’ led to the slaughter of our people.”
“We know as well as anyone the violence that these kinds of fantasies can lead to. It is time to make the ceasefire permanent, bring all of the hostages home, and join in efforts to rebuild Gaza for the sake of and with the people who live there,” Spitzer added.
Peter Beinart, editor-at-large of Jewish Currents, who also signed the ad, said: “It is utterly horrifying to see the degree to which people who enjoy great legitimacy and respect in our community are willing to support something that would be considered one of the greatest crimes of the 21st century.”
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
I do like the idea of a closer warm, near the beach Disneyland and Universal though, they could close the rainy horrible French-speaking Paris one.
Re: Riveria of the Middle East
