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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Did that democratic vote include a specific and categoric option to leave with NO DEAL?
If Yes
What percentage of people voted for NO DEAL in that vote?
If No
What percentage of people voted for parties advocating NO DEAL in 2017?
If Greater than 50% - Then NO DEAL is mandated by the people
If less than 50% - Then
What options remain?
1) Leave with NO DEAL.... but there is no mandate. How do we find out how what the British people want?
General Election? But that is fought on other grounds, not just Brexit. Some people, vote for a good MP, some vote for education or crime, not all vote on Brexit. Result - INCONCLUSIVE!
Second referendum? But what is the question?
2) Leave with a deal... but what deal? 17.4 million people voted for many different reasons ranging from complete distrust of the EU, kicking Cameron in the bollocks, remaining in the FTA, having a good deal (easiest in history), xenophobia, and cutting ties altogether.
May was a shit PM. Johnson is going to be the shortest lived PM in history, and the worst (current record holder died in office, wasn't short-lived because he was shit). But none of this would have been possible if Cameron had been a strong PM. For me, the damage Cameron did will last generations, regardless of the outcome of us remaining, leaving, dealing with the EU. May tried her best with a shit hand, I'm starting to appreciate her more as each Johnson-Cummings infested, poker playing, manipulating shitfest takes place. Johnson can kill the UK off, so he has to be stopped. It's that simple.
I'm lucky, I am in the US working and earning. But, if I was doing this job in the UK I'd now be considering emigrating, or staying and stock piling food, money and water because I know a no deal on Oct 31 would mean I'd be out of work by November 30. Hyper inflation on its way to the UK, get your wheelbarrows ready filled with all your decreasing currency. And, you brought it on yourselves because you didn't like people speaking different languages on a 5 minute bus ride.
Great post; spot on!
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Did that democratic vote include a specific and categoric option to leave with NO DEAL?
If Yes
What percentage of people voted for NO DEAL in that vote?
If No
What percentage of people voted for parties advocating NO DEAL in 2017?
If Greater than 50% - Then NO DEAL is mandated by the people
If less than 50% - Then
What options remain?
1) Leave with NO DEAL.... but there is no mandate. How do we find out how what the British people want?
General Election? But that is fought on other grounds, not just Brexit. Some people, vote for a good MP, some vote for education or crime, not all vote on Brexit. Result - INCONCLUSIVE!
Second referendum? But what is the question?
2) Leave with a deal... but what deal? 17.4 million people voted for many different reasons ranging from complete distrust of the EU, kicking Cameron in the bollocks, remaining in the FTA, having a good deal (easiest in history), xenophobia, and cutting ties altogether.
May was a shit PM. Johnson is going to be the shortest lived PM in history, and the worst (current record holder died in office, wasn't short-lived because he was shit). But none of this would have been possible if Cameron had been a strong PM. For me, the damage Cameron did will last generations, regardless of the outcome of us remaining, leaving, dealing with the EU. May tried her best with a shit hand, I'm starting to appreciate her more as each Johnson-Cummings infested, poker playing, manipulating shitfest takes place. Johnson can kill the UK off, so he has to be stopped. It's that simple.
I'm lucky, I am in the US working and earning. But, if I was doing this job in the UK I'd now be considering emigrating, or staying and stock piling food, money and water because I know a no deal on Oct 31 would mean I'd be out of work by November 30. Hyper inflation on its way to the UK, get your wheelbarrows ready filled with all your decreasing currency. And, you brought it on yourselves because you didn't like people speaking different languages on a 5 minute bus ride.
What job do you do if you don't mind saying.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Did that democratic vote include a specific and categoric option to leave with NO DEAL?
If Yes
What percentage of people voted for NO DEAL in that vote?
If No
What percentage of people voted for parties advocating NO DEAL in 2017?
If Greater than 50% - Then NO DEAL is mandated by the people
If less than 50% - Then
What options remain?
1) Leave with NO DEAL.... but there is no mandate. How do we find out how what the British people want?
General Election? But that is fought on other grounds, not just Brexit. Some people, vote for a good MP, some vote for education or crime, not all vote on Brexit. Result - INCONCLUSIVE!
Second referendum? But what is the question?
2) Leave with a deal... but what deal? 17.4 million people voted for many different reasons ranging from complete distrust of the EU, kicking Cameron in the bollocks, remaining in the FTA, having a good deal (easiest in history), xenophobia, and cutting ties altogether.
May was a shit PM. Johnson is going to be the shortest lived PM in history, and the worst (current record holder died in office, wasn't short-lived because he was shit). But none of this would have been possible if Cameron had been a strong PM. For me, the damage Cameron did will last generations, regardless of the outcome of us remaining, leaving, dealing with the EU. May tried her best with a shit hand, I'm starting to appreciate her more as each Johnson-Cummings infested, poker playing, manipulating shitfest takes place. Johnson can kill the UK off, so he has to be stopped. It's that simple.
I'm lucky, I am in the US working and earning. But, if I was doing this job in the UK I'd now be considering emigrating, or staying and stock piling food, money and water because I know a no deal on Oct 31 would mean I'd be out of work by November 30. Hyper inflation on its way to the UK, get your wheelbarrows ready filled with all your decreasing currency. And, you brought it on yourselves because you didn't like people speaking different languages on a 5 minute bus ride.
I think your predictions as to the consequences of a no deal Brexit are a little project fearish, but, apart from that, I can find little to argue with in what you say :thumbup:.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
"British politics today is what results from the collision of an unstoppable force, an immovable object and a clown car."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ind-the-words/
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
I'm lucky, I am in the US working and earning. But, if I was doing this job in the UK I'd now be considering emigrating, or staying and stock piling food, money and water because I know a no deal on Oct 31 would mean I'd be out of work by November 30. Hyper inflation on its way to the UK, get your wheelbarrows ready filled with all your decreasing currency. And, you brought it on yourselves because you didn't like people speaking different languages on a 5 minute bus ride.
America was supposed to crash and burn if Trump ever got elected, but now it's globalist China & Germany who are on the run. It's funny how it all works out when you cut through all the BS, hey? Personally, I'd rather go with the USA & Japan, as they are about to sh*t on the globalist new world order :biggrin:
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
What job do you do if you don't mind saying.
I am a games developer.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
America was supposed to crash and burn if Trump ever got elected, but now it's globalist China & Germany who are on the run. It's funny how it all works out when you cut through all the BS, hey? Personally, I'd rather go with the USA & Japan, as they are about to sh*t on the globalist new world order :biggrin:
Question.
The people who predicted America would crash post Trump, were they the same people that predict Britain will crash post Brexit?
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I think your predictions as to the consequences of a no deal Brexit are a little project fearish, but, apart from that, I can find little to argue with in what you say :thumbup:.
Project fear, like leaving the EU was going to be messy, like there was a chance there would be no deal.
We need to stop using this language.
Personally, I think things will unravel quickly. You are going to have a cabinet that includes Nigel Farage very soon as the Brexit party will fight Labour in places where people will never think of voting Tory. The Tories will replace moderates like Clarke and Soames (can't believe I am calling Soames a moderate!) with more right wing people. If this cabinet looks right wing, you ain't seen anything yet.
Rees Mogg is shitting his pants, the longer the UK stays in the EU the more likely it is that his sordid and unpatriotic financial affairs are brought out in the open.
Hope the election is in November, and hope Johnson has to go crawling to them for an extension. If he does, Brexit Party will kill off the Tories, and some Labour, and the only feasible option then is for a coalition of Greens/Lib Dems/ Labour minus Corbyn to form a Government of National Unity. At that stage, and with a hung Parliament, the only option is to ask the people a second time - but in a legally binding referendum that stops the sordid financing that ruined the last referendum.
Brexitters know they got lucky the last time. If I was to bet, I'd put a buck on the UK remaining in the EU post a second referendum. That's where I see it going, but I have to say Johnson will probably break the law and the slow wheels of legal affairs will not resolve that particular issue in the 12 days between Oct 19 and Oct 31.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
I am a games developer.
Why will games developers lose their jobs over Brexit?
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Why will games developers lose their jobs over Brexit?
A large percentage of the talent in the gaming industry comes from outside the UK. A large percentage of the companies that produce the games are based in the UK. Rockstar for example.
With a no-deal Brexit (which is what we are talking about here), the Government are refusing to protect EU citizens. In that case, many of those EU citizens will head elsewhere. We are already seeing a few coming to the US, they're the clever ones pre-empting the changes. There will be an inevitable brain drain.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Why will games developers lose their jobs over Brexit?
Now, if you don't mind me asking, what is the mandate for a no-deal Brexit in the UK?
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Project fear, like leaving the EU was going to be messy, like there was a chance there would be no deal.
We need to stop using this language.
Personally, I think things will unravel quickly. You are going to have a cabinet that includes Nigel Farage very soon as the Brexit party will fight Labour in places where people will never think of voting Tory. The Tories will replace moderates like Clarke and Soames (can't believe I am calling Soames a moderate!) with more right wing people. If this cabinet looks right wing, you ain't seen anything yet.
Rees Mogg is shitting his pants, the longer the UK stays in the EU the more likely it is that his sordid and unpatriotic financial affairs are brought out in the open.
Hope the election is in November, and hope Johnson has to go crawling to them for an extension. If he does, Brexit Party will kill off the Tories, and some Labour, and the only feasible option then is for a coalition of Greens/Lib Dems/ Labour minus Corbyn to form a Government of National Unity. At that stage, and with a hung Parliament, the only option is to ask the people a second time - but in a legally binding referendum that stops the sordid financing that ruined the last referendum.
Brexitters know they got lucky the last time. If I was to bet, I'd put a buck on the UK remaining in the EU post a second referendum. That's where I see it going, but I have to say Johnson will probably break the law and the slow wheels of legal affairs will not resolve that particular issue in the 12 days between Oct 19 and Oct 31.
If Nigel Farage is in the cabinet that will mean there is a Tory/Brexit Party alliance.
There will not therefore be a Remain alliance government or a second referendum.
If however things go differently and there is a second referendum, making it legally binding could cause a lot of trouble if Remain win.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
If Nigel Farage is in the cabinet that will mean there is a Tory/Brexit Party alliance.
There will not therefore be a Remain alliance government or a second referendum.
If however things go differently and there is a second referendum, making it legally binding could cause a lot of trouble if Remain win.
The second referendum wasn't legally binding so I don't see why the third should be
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Project fear, like leaving the EU was going to be messy, like there was a chance there would be no deal.
.
No, like the claims that almost turned me into a Leave voter - ridiculous things like
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36355564
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ding-into-war/
Neither side covered themselves in glory during the referendum campaign, but the Remain side was complacent and some of their campaigning pathetic.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
If there is to be second referendum for heaven's sake set a minimum of 66.6% majority limit. That way no-one can argue that it was a "very close run thing". If this is not achieved then the whole shabang is off and we stick with the status quo. Maybe try again in 10 years time if there is any appetite for a repeat of the fiasco that is!
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
If there is to be second referendum for heaven's sake set a minimum of 66.6% majority limit. That way no-one can argue that it was a "very close run thing". If this is not achieved then the whole shabang is off and we stick with the status quo. Maybe try again in 10 years time if there is any appetite for a repeat of the fiasco that is!
Absolutely right Gofer. Hats off, perhaps the most sensible post for a long time.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Absolutely right Gofer. Hats off, perhaps the most sensible post for a long time.
I think that was also Cameron's big mistake back in 2016. Had he set a two-thirds majority then, then none of this would have happened. Not being an expert on parliamentary law I recently asked my local MP if there was some legal reason why he did not do this. He said no there was reason, it was up to Cameron to set the majority figure, so he obviously went for the simple >50%. I suspect Cameron and Co were so confident that the majority of voters would opt for remain that it never entered his head to do anything else.
I know we have a first-past-the-post system when it comes to general elections but a referendum is a different kettle of fish. A decision of this magnitude which affects generations into the future needs a clear mandate from the people and if one is not apparent, then you do not press ahead.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
I think that was also Cameron's big mistake back in 2016. Had he set a two-thirds majority then, then none of this would have happened. Not being an expert on parliamentary law I recently asked my local MP if there was some legal reason why he did not do this. He said no there was reason, it was up to Cameron to set the majority figure, so he obviously went for the simple >50%. I suspect Cameron and Co were so confident that the majority of voters would opt for remain that it never entered his head to do anything else.
I know we have a first-past-the-post system when it comes to general elections but a referendum is a different kettle of fish. A decision of this magnitude which affects generations into the future needs a clear mandate from the people and if one is not apparent, then you do not press ahead.
Cameron is a tosspot: that explains it.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFCC3PO
Now, if you don't mind me asking, what is the mandate for a no-deal Brexit in the UK?
You didn't answer my question.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
If there is to be second referendum for heaven's sake set a minimum of 66.6% majority limit. That way no-one can argue that it was a "very close run thing". If this is not achieved then the whole shabang is off and we stick with the status quo. Maybe try again in 10 years time if there is any appetite for a repeat of the fiasco that is!
But following the 2016 referendum and the passing of the act to invoke article 50, the status quo is that we leave the EU.
Therefore under your plan if Remain doesn't get 66.6% we still leave?
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Cameron is a tosspot: that explains it.
And now we come full circle back to the idea that your vote should be worth twice that of mine. Absolutely any excuse to get your own way and absolutely no regard for democracy when it doesn't suit you.
What if we said that you needed a two thirds majority to reverse an existing referendum result ? That'd make more sense, but perhaps it'd be better to stick with one man one vote .
They tried your proposals in Apartheid South Afrika, but it didn't really work, did it ?
We recently established that you thought Mahatma Ghandi was evil , and now we find that you're in some sympathy with the Apartheid voting system. Of course you won't like these conclusions ,but they're the logical outcomes of your statements, so I wonder whether you think it might be time to reconsider some of your rather dogmatic dictats ?
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
And now we come full circle back to the idea that your vote should be worth twice that of mine. Absolutely any excuse to get your own way and absolutely no regard for democracy when it doesn't suit you.
What if we said that you needed a two thirds majority to reverse an existing referendum result ? That'd make more sense, but perhaps it'd be better to stick with one man one vote .
They tried your proposals in Apartheid South Afrika, but it didn't really work, did it ?
We recently established that you thought Mahatma Ghandi was evil , and now we find that you're in some sympathy with the Apartheid voting system. Of course you won't like these conclusions ,but they're the logical outcomes of your statements, so I wonder whether you think it might be time to reconsider some of your rather dogmatic dictats ?
As regards your paragraph 2 I refer the honourable gentlemen to the answer I gave a short while ago
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
As regards your paragraph 2 I refer the honourable gentlemen to the answer I gave a short while ago
You've be watching too much Prime Minister's Questions. Do you bow your head before you start typing?
:biggrin:
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
You've be watching too much Prime Minister's Questions. Do you bow your head before you start typing?
:biggrin:
No but I do find myself calling out "Order ORDER! at odd times during the day!
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
No but I do find myself calling out "Order ORDER! at odd times during the day!
"Don't gesticulate. Don't rant. Spare us the theatrics. Behave yourself. Be a good boy, young man! BE A GOOD BOY!!"
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
But following the 2016 referendum and the passing of the act to invoke article 50, the status quo is that we leave the EU.
Therefore under your plan if Remain doesn't get 66.6% we still leave?
No. If neither side achieves 66.6% of the vote then it means there is not sufficient mandate to proceed. Article 50 would then be revoked and the status quo is that the UK remains within the EU. As I said, such a monumental decision needs a VERY CLEAR majority. A general election result is different as it is for a limited time period and the country can then vote again to boot out the government of the day if things don't turn out too well.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Scottish court finds Parliament suspension unlawful
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
This could get interesting. I wonder if there's any merit in the parallel Gina Miller case joining with them as a "supercase' in the supreme court? On the face of it that could provide more legal heft to ensure a successful outcome but I'm not a legal eagle so I can't see the possible flaws in that course of action.
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
This could get interesting. I wonder if there's any merit in the parallel Gina Miller case joining with them as a "supercase' in the supreme court? On the face of it that could provide more legal heft to ensure a successful outcome but I'm not a legal eagle so I can't see the possible flaws in that course of action.
It seems all 3 cases are expected to be heard together at the Supreme Court next week.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-court-rules
No idea what the outcome or repercussions might be though
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Re: Johnson, I know I'm biased, but..................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Veg1960
Good news I think. I'd forgotten there was also a third Northern Ireland case Veg. That province's peculiar situation might provide additional force to the argument.