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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
I can answer the last para ,not very well ,looking at the current part time ,management we have in place.
Unlike Scotland we have no big exports other than farming and financial services, 26% of those employedin Wales are in public sector jobs ,which need self financing, when faced with those public sector burdens, the political pressures become tough, as you need to generate wealth from the private sector though business taxes , or up the tax burden of everyone in Wales to finance it.
Then you have the moans because we pay too much tax , or businesses move away, to avoid things like cooperation taxes.
We need to be careful what we wish for.
We could become a Singapore ,lower business taxes and change politically as a nation and attract business away from England ,however we may then not get a favourable trade tariff from the new non European state of England ,who have their own farmers and financial institutions ,not so easy for Wales in my humble view ??
Wales has resources that countries will fight wars over like water and energy, we export water but get Porthcawl for it, energy we have coal, shale gas, some of the largest tides in the world and plenty of wind, we are very rich in natural resources, we have plenty of farm land, we have massive potential for tourism what with our beaches, castles, scenery etc, there are equally small [smaller in some cases] independent successful countries of similar size or population to Wales.
Nothing against our friends that we share a land border with but the way they are going - only looking after the rich of their population [and our] population we would be better off on our own, time to take steps in that direction.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
CardiffIrish2
Over the last few years we’ve had from the likes of Johnson, Farage, Hunt, Rees Mogg references in regards to EU things like Hitler, Nazis, EUSSR and other xenophobic type language.
Tusk said quite rightly that the people who started this process without a plan to ensure safety of UK citizens quite rightly deserve a special place in Hell. I couldn’t. Agree with him more. There was a woman on twitter talking about the fear she has of a no deal die to her medical supplies she’s recliner on.
Imagine the stress she’s under at the moment?
As per usual their was faux outrage and misquotes from the usual sort who are responsible for this mess.
So **** these plastic patriots who I see as committing treason and once they’re ****ed **** them again.
I'm much more a Remainer now, but I could easily have voted Leave back in 2016. The main reason I didn't was that I didn't want to vote on the same side as Nigel Farage or people who say England when they are talking about the UK - I can remember listening to a radio debate a few weeks before the vote from Margate I think it was, where it seemed that all of the leavers who spoke did so solely in terms of England (there were plenty of other times I wondered if we were allowed to vote in Wales when I heard English leavers being interviewed but that one was the worst).
That said, I don't go along with the theory that Wales voted Leave because there are so many English born people here. I've been living in the Rhondda for ten months now and in some ways it's been an eye opener, because although I like it here, there is a lot of deprivation and it's easy to see how, given the chance of a vote between the status quo (which, essentially, remain was) and a new start, people living in less affluent areas after nearly a decade of austerity would opt for the latter.
I happen to think they picked the wrong "villain" though, because the unpopular policies they voted against were, mainly, domestic ones and when you think of it, it takes a special kind of political naivety and arrogance to hold such a vote at such a time if your preference was to remain, but that's what David Cameron did because he's a Conservative and, as has been the case for the last forty years, party comes before country for a Tory when it comes to Europe.
About fifteen years ago, I can remember reading that, after a few decades under the likes of Heath, Thatcher and Major, the Conservative party was becoming as "toff" dominated as it had been at any time since the days of MacMillan and Douglas-Home. Cameron was one sort of toff - lazy, a trimmer and a huge superiority complex, but the likes of those CardiffIrish2 lists are, basically, toffs as well and the idea of them being at the forefront of some working class revolt (as the Referendum result is often described as by Leavers) is hilarious - Nigel, Boris and Jacob taking up the cudgels for the downtrodden? Yeah, right.
If those three (with a few others) were who Donald Tusk had in mind, then I agree with him entirely.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I'm much more a Remainer now, but I could easily have voted Leave back in 2016. The main reason I didn't was that I didn't want to vote on the same side as Nigel Farage or people who say England when they are talking about the UK - I can remember listening to a radio debate a few weeks before the vote from Margate I think it was, where it seemed that all of the leavers who spoke did so solely in terms of England (there were plenty of other times I wondered if we were allowed to vote in Wales when I heard English leavers being interviewed but that one was the worst).
That said, I don't go along with the theory that Wales voted Leave because there are so many English born people here. I've been living in the Rhondda for ten months now and in some ways it's been an eye opener, because although I like it here, there is a lot of deprivation and it's easy to see how, given the chance of a vote between the status quo (which, essentially, remain was) and a new start, people living in less affluent areas after nearly a decade of austerity would opt for the latter.
I happen to think they picked the wrong "villain" though, because the unpopular policies they voted against were, mainly, domestic ones and when you think of it, it takes a special kind of political naivety and arrogance to hold such a vote at such a time if your preference was to remain, but that's what David Cameron did because he's a Conservative and, as has been the case for the last forty years, party comes before country for a Tory when it comes to Europe.
About fifteen years ago, I can remember reading that, after a few decades under the likes of Heath, Thatcher and Major, the Conservative party was becoming as "toff" dominated as it had been at any time since the days of MacMillan and Douglas-Home. Cameron was one sort of toff - lazy, a trimmer and a huge superiority complex, but the likes of those CardiffIrish2 lists are, basically, toffs as well and the idea of them being at the forefront of some working class revolt (as the Referendum result is often described as by Leavers) is hilarious - Nigel, Boris and Jacob taking up the cudgels for the downtrodden? Yeah, right.
If those three (with a few others) were who Donald Tusk had in mind, then I agree with him entirely.
No argument with that at all Bob, the result for Wales as regards change was devastating in my view, if Wales had voted to remain alongside N.I and Scotland then the union state would be in immediate danger but that didn't happen, Wales voted leave 52.5% to 47.5%, we know England voted leave more strongly than Wales, whereas Scotland & N.I both voted remain quite strongly [Scotland well over 60% and N.I nearer 60% than 50%], so incomers into Wales from England on the face of it were more likely to vote leave and if that was the case and those incomers did not vote and remain happened to have won in Wales as a result even if it was 50.1% plays 49.9% then there would have been hell to play, what we see now is tea party to what would have happened in that scenario.
But that is all by the by instead of the union breaking up now in the short term, its had a reprieve on the back of Wales until the medium term.
You are right about people living in less affluent areas voting against the status quo and I cant blame them and you are right that they have taken it out on the wrong 'villain', they should have voted for the Green party or Plaid in General or Assembly elections in protest against the big Westminster parties but there you go.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?
Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.
If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?
One reason I often hear is that Wales can't afford to leave the UK. Most economists say Britain will be worse off when we leave the EU, yet that doesn't seem to matter. I find that confusing.
If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK, and I'd be delighted for that to happen if their people voted for it, Wales would have a difficult decision to make. Feelings towards independence are growing here and Wales may have to decide whether it wants to stay as a shit stain on England's shoe or not.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
One reason I often hear is that Wales can't afford to leave the UK. Most economists say Britain will be worse off when we leave the EU, yet that doesn't seem to matter. I find that confusing.
If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK, and I'd be delighted for that to happen if their people voted for it, Wales would have a difficult decision to make. Feelings towards independence are growing here and Wales may have to decide whether it wants to stay as a shit stain on England's shoe or not.
Yes indeed Eric that will be the decision that might well have to be made at some point.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.
I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.
But Wales is just a constituent part of the UK. The same scenario happens in other countries where particular regions may vote in a contrary way to the major conurbations.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But Wales is just a constituent part of the UK. The same scenario happens in other countries where particular regions may vote in a contrary way to the major conurbations.
Wales is more than just a constituent part of the UK, Wales is a country.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
Wales is more than just a constituent part of the UK, Wales is a country.
The word 'country' has several meanings. Wales is not an independent nation state and is simply a constituent part of the UK.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
There are many parts of Europe that were once nation states or statelets in the past but which aren't now.
Wales isn't even on the Wikipedia list of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vereign_states
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
Wales has resources that countries will fight wars over like water and energy, we export water but get Porthcawl for it, energy we have coal, shale gas, some of the largest tides in the world and plenty of wind, we are very rich in natural resources, we have plenty of farm land, we have massive potential for tourism what with our beaches, castles, scenery etc, there are equally small [smaller in some cases] independent successful countries of similar size or population to Wales.
Nothing against our friends that we share a land border with but the way they are going - only looking after the rich of their population [and our] population we would be better off on our own, time to take steps in that direction.
Doesn't Wales take more out the UK pot than it puts in?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
rs3100
Donald Tusk is President of the European Council and was elected to that post by the European Council who consist of the Leaders of all of the member states, who were elected by the general population of each country.
Jean Claude Juncker is the President of the European Commission and was elected by the MEPs, who were elected by the general population of each country.
So tell me again how these people are unelected?
You tell me how members of the UK public or indeed any member of the EU voting public can vote him out. If we don't like Theresa may we can vote her out at a General Election; we can't do that with Tusk or any EU Commissioner. That civil service post by another poster is nonsense as civil servants don't make decisions; they simply advise Ministers.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
Welsh territory at one time encompassed the whole of Britain up to the central belt of Scotland.
https://twitter.com/DEADLIVEUK/statu...59568507211777
When Wales last had self rule they ruled an area greater than the current borders of Wales.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn
This was agreed in 1405 and probably should be the map today.
https://twitter.com/welshnotbritish/...71350339911681
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Doesn't Wales take more out the UK pot than it puts in?
Wales is currently subsidising old English people that are a drain on our services and England does compensate Wales for it, also Wales has been raped over centuries of its resources with profits often going to England, Wales supposed to be part of the UK state and should therefore get adequate funding from central Government but it doesn't, that is why the EU designated that large parts of Wales should get funding off the EU.
If Wales ever got independence I think reparations would be in order, not that there would be much chance of that, lol.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
Meant to say doesn't compensate.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
CardiffIrish2
I’d say he’s every right to be irritated with a government that agreed to a withdrawal agreement then decided to seek alternative arrangements
(Whatever the hell that means)
As for the Brexiters responding it was the usual Ill inforned, resorting to cliches and lots of coverage of their faux outrage.
They still haven’t come up with a plan either.
I saw somewhere that the agreement was only ratified when the British and European parliaments had approved it.
Since our parliament hasn't is Junker right when he says they will not reopen the treaty?
Has it actually been "closed" ( if that is the right term)?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Touche!
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The America feeds the UK intelligence too. During the Falklands War they were helping us behind the scenes whilst conveying a more neutral stance on the world stage.
Without the Yanks we'd be buggered.
And Wales would be rudderless without England.
Why cant we just be proud of our Isles .
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
So the EU should have bailed out Britain's banks? That was a British decision made by Labour and fully endorsed by the Conservatives.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But Wales is just a constituent part of the UK. The same scenario happens in other countries where particular regions may vote in a contrary way to the major conurbations.
(including your other comments) Should Wales just take English rule up the arse without giving its voters much say?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
(including your other comments) Should Wales just take English rule up the arse without giving its voters much say?
What say do voters in Wales not have that voters in Cornwall or Cumbria do? Or are those two regions highly implicated in the 'English' rule that you mention? In fact, neither of those two regions have a regional assembly.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
What say do voters in Wales not have that voters in Cornwall or Cumbria do? Or are those two regions highly implicated in the 'English' rule that you mention? In fact, neither of those two regions have a regional assembly.
As West Wales and the Valleys are joined by Cornwall, Lincolnshire, Durham, South Yorkshire and Tees Valley as the poorest regions of the UK it's obviously not a binary England v Wales thing as typified by some on here.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
As West Wales and the Valleys are joined by Cornwall, Lincolnshire, Durham, South Yorkshire and Tees Valley as the poorest regions of the UK it's obviously not a binary England v Wales thing as typified by some on here.
This happens in every country on earth some area's are poorer than others, in our country for many years the backbone has been the areas of London , Manchester and Birmingham including their inner and outer districts , the success and wealth of those areas over the centuries have sustained and provided for the less successful regions and areas of the UK , let's just be grateful and nice about it , what's wrong with being as one .
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
This happens in every country on earth some area's are poorer than others, in our country for many years the backbone has been the areas of London , Manchester and Birmingham including their inner and outer districts , the success and wealth of those areas over the centuries have sustained and provided for the less successful regions and areas of the UK , let's just be grateful and nice about it , what's wrong with being as one .
As someone that lives in one these successful parts of the UK I expect a bit more respect from you serflike peasants in the future.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
As someone that lives in one these successful parts of the UK I expect a bit more respect from you serflike peasants in the future.
How do you know where I live, you a snooping or trolling me again, it's great being able to get you to bite ,its sooooo easy , been to many City games this year , lol .
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
It makes me laugh when I hear Brexiteers talk about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.
In any given General Election my vote counts for nothing. A pig wearing a blue rosette would walk it. So how in any way is that democratic?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
It makes me laugh when I hear Brexiteers talk about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.
In any given General Election my vote counts for nothing. A pig wearing a blue rosette would walk it. So how in any way is that democratic?
I wonder how many laws have originated in unelected think tanks before going through our parliament.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
I just hope that you don't have a similar experience to Spike Lee. He justifiably had a huge chip on his shoulder regarding slavery and the plight of the black man in the United States....only to discover that he descended from a slave owner. Racial purity rarely stands up to scrutiny.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
I just hope that you don't have a similar experience to Spike Lee. He justifiably had a huge chip on his shoulder regarding slavery and the plight of the black man in the United States....only to discover that he descended from a slave owner.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I think all people are equal and that nationality is an accident of birth, people don't know their Welsh history because the powers that be deliberately keep it hidden and state education teach next to no Welsh history.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I think all people are equal and that nationality is an accident of birth, people don't know their Welsh history because the powers that be deliberately keep it hidden and state education teach next to no Welsh history.
Thankfully, I had the option of learning Welsh history as 20% of the syllabus and it did leave a huge impression on me. In fact, I never miss the opportunity to take friends from other countries to St. Fagan's and introduce them to the history of subjigation Rebecca riots etc. However, I have had close links to England, Germany and Japan and realise that life has moved on.
By the way, the film 'Zulu' was on TV yesterday......
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
So the EU should have bailed out Britain's banks? That was a British decision made by Labour and fully endorsed by the Conservatives.
I think Yanis Varoufakis the ex Greek finance minister was referring to the Eurodebt crisis not the British bail out Eric!
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Thankfully, I had the option of learning Welsh history as 20% of the syllabus and it did leave a huge impression on me. In fact, I never miss the opportunity to take friends from other countries to St. Fagan's and introduce them to the history of subjigation Rebecca riots etc. However, I have had close links to England, Germany and Japan and realise that life has moved on.
By the way, the film 'Zulu' was on TV yesterday......
Wales has some astonishing history as dies the rest if our wonderful British Isles.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
Wow 'no deal' still a possibility, the UK might well disintegrate if 'no deal' comes to pass, it might be for the best in the long run for the Celtic countries but will Westminster mp's step back from the cliff edge ?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
Welsh and Scottish finance ministers currently in with the chief sec of the Treasury to see if EU cash will be replaced ?
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?
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Originally Posted by
trampie09
Welsh and Scottish finance ministers currently in with the chief sec of the Treasury to see if EU cash will be replaced ?
I should imagine it will be a resounding yes
