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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:53
You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:26
There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:10
I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:02
I also reckon a lot of conservative supporters wish to see social justice too, they just go about it a different way. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is your responsibility to others. You seemingly confuse conservatism with thatcherism, which is more of a classical liberal ideology rather than traditional conservative ideology.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:41
You really do make sweeping generalisations and your posts are riddled with dogma and hyperbole. There is very little in the way of constructive analysis and in that respect your as guilty as Croesyblue for following an ideology without question.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:09
If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services to allow people (mostly ther mates and in some cases even cabinet members)to make a profit from them, they will get the undermining of the rights of workers to justice in the workplace, they will get cutting back of legislation designed to protect the safety of workers, they will get the closing down of public services, they will get a massive increase in foodbanks.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:04
Thatcher did not have a liberal bone in her body. She was a neo-liberal, which as you well know is something completely different from a liberal. She was supportive of the freedom of capital to exploit all avenues of profit unhindered by regulation or control. That is very very different from liberalism.
The traditional, conformist, patriarchal, nuclear family, authoritarian values
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:51
Archibald leitch gives the impression he thinks all business owners are raking it in and the workers are fed scraps. Whilst I'm sure there are businesses out there, my experience is the earnings gap between owner and worker isn't that great.
if you cannot provide a link, all you have done is confirm that you are constatnly attributing to me positions i do not hold.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:34
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:20
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:08
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:52
It is quite simple.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:52
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:33
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:26
Right wingers put profit before people.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:11
If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:06
If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
OK, would you class the current government as right wing?
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
yes.
I feel for this business owner - but all you had done is given an example that demonstrates that the capitalist system is not fit for purpose. It porvides for capital, but not people.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:55
What a conceited post. We have hundreds of clients on our books so I have a good idea of what goes on in business thank you very much. You only see business from onw side - the trade union side - that is there to fight for workers rights. you have no other consideration so please save your sanctimonious claptrap for someone else.
Yes, you know a few employers, and i am sure many of those employers are good employers that treat their workers fairly. At no time have i ever suggested that all employers are wrong uns. But the fact is, there are a lot of wrong uns out there - something you are determined to cloese your eyes to.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
Of course you don't mind businesses closing down which in turn would make peoples lives poorer another unintended consequence.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
In most cases it's not about exploiting people, it's about paying what they can afford. I know quite a few business owners who earn less than their staff.
That's like me using Venezuela as proof that socialism doesn't work.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
People on this board will accuse me of being stupid or uncaring....because its the traditional come-back for anyone with a mind of their own.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:12
Of course you don't mind businesses closing down which in turn would make peoples lives poorer another unintended consequence.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
In most cases it's not about exploiting people, it's about paying what they can afford. I know quite a few business owners who earn less than their staff.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
There was a bloke on Welsh news from Barry the other day who run a cafe, it was the bloke who used to run the 1927 cafe in Canton. He was saying that wages going up to £8 per hour would be critical for his business and he'd pretty much have to close down. I know the bloke from football years ago. Him and his wife live in a housing association house so certainly not wealthy, but you would like to pretty much put him, his wife and his employees out of work. That's hardly putting the people first.
I am not advocation socialism though.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Penguin wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:18
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
I think classing yourself as having a mind of your own is going a bit far, considering the propaganda you have reguritated here.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:19
Of course you don't mind businesses closing down which in turn would make peoples lives poorer another unintended consequence.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:12
In most cases it's not about exploiting people, it's about paying what they can afford. I know quite a few business owners who earn less than their staff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
There was a bloke on Welsh news from Barry the other day who run a cafe, it was the bloke who used to run the 1927 cafe in Canton. He was saying that wages going up to £8 per hour would be critical for his business and he'd pretty much have to close down. I know the bloke from football years ago. Him and his wife live in a housing association house so certainly not wealthy, but you would like to pretty much put him, his wife and his employees out of work. That's hardly putting the people first.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
I feel for this business owner - but all you had done is given an example that demonstrates that the capitalist system is not fit for purpose. It porvides for capital, but not people.
Not according to my Venezuelan colleague.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:22
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Penguin wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:18
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Only idiots who subscribe to the scare-mongering of the labour party and others either dont understand this or choose to ignore it.
fair enough, i bow to your unbiased guidance.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:23
Of course you don't mind businesses closing down which in turn would make peoples lives poorer another unintended consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:19
In most cases it's not about exploiting people, it's about paying what they can afford. I know quite a few business owners who earn less than their staff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:12
There was a bloke on Welsh news from Barry the other day who run a cafe, it was the bloke who used to run the 1927 cafe in Canton. He was saying that wages going up to £8 per hour would be critical for his business and he'd pretty much have to close down. I know the bloke from football years ago. Him and his wife live in a housing association house so certainly not wealthy, but you would like to pretty much put him, his wife and his employees out of work. That's hardly putting the people first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
I feel for this business owner - but all you had done is given an example that demonstrates that the capitalist system is not fit for purpose. It porvides for capital, but not people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
That's like me using Venezuela as proof that socialism doesn't work.
The biggest problem Venuzeula is the predatory capitlaist countries around them, in particular the USA who are constantly trying to undermine them.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Penguin wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:26
So Labour did not actively remove legislation to allow gambling to be advertised on TV then? Blair did not give Ecclestone a caviat making Formula 1 the only sport still allowed to advertised tobacco?
We were talking about the Conservatie Party. Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that someone who is critical of the Tories is automatically supportive of Labour.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:28
Of course you don't mind businesses closing down which in turn would make peoples lives poorer another unintended consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:23
In most cases it's not about exploiting people, it's about paying what they can afford. I know quite a few business owners who earn less than their staff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:19
There was a bloke on Welsh news from Barry the other day who run a cafe, it was the bloke who used to run the 1927 cafe in Canton. He was saying that wages going up to £8 per hour would be critical for his business and he'd pretty much have to close down. I know the bloke from football years ago. Him and his wife live in a housing association house so certainly not wealthy, but you would like to pretty much put him, his wife and his employees out of work. That's hardly putting the people first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:12
I feel for this business owner - but all you had done is given an example that demonstrates that the capitalist system is not fit for purpose. It porvides for capital, but not people.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
That's like me using Venezuela as proof that socialism doesn't work.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
All things considered, Socialism has been good for the people Venezula.
He lives in Venezuela so I think he's probably got a fairly decent opinion on the whole thing.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:32
He's not an overly political bloke so I have no real idea of his political leanings if any.
Fair enough
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
So Tories only look after them selves and sod the community?
That hero of the left Tony Benn avoided inheritance tax....he no longer needed his £5 million stash but he was damned if the poor of this country were going to get a share of it. Legal ways to avoid sharing his wealth and making sure the Benn family who are rich enough already didnt share their wealth with the grubby section of Britain.
Another left wing hero Bob Crow helped himself to £100,000 salary plus expenses from the union but that wasnt enough to pay for holidays in a Rio and Barbados each year so he stayed in his social housing home with its subsidised rent depriving another family of the chance .......to make sure he had enough cash to enjoy a lifestyle many of the union members could only dream of.
The voters see Labour for what it is ....a party that wants to help itself to your money so it can line the pockets of its cronies.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:49
So Tories only look after them selves and sod the community?
What has any of this got to do with the Conservative Party or conservative values ?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
You have lost me now.
Bob Crow - noble!!,! http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
The usual suspects automatically drawing the wrong conclusions from my op.
I posted the link to Hutton's article because much of it rang true with my own interpretation of the direction in which the Tory party is going. It is not an attack on conservatism per se. I would be surprised if the vast majority of us didn't possess at least some viewpoints that could be classified as conservative.
Back to Hutton's article, which as other posters have correctly pointed out is coming from a man on the centre left (I never claimed that the piece was objective). The reason why I feel it is a good piece of writing is that it identifies - correctly imo - that ideology is behind many of the cuts and the Tory party is, perhaps due to the rise of UKIP, about to take an even bigger lurch to the right. A lurch to the right with an added helping of English nationalism which can only hasten the collapse of the union.
So, there we have it. Not an attack on conservatism generally, but, in my opinion, a perceptive article that lays bear the direction of the current Tory party.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 15:02
Sad that this thread has become more more of the same right v left arguments where people argue from their own perspective when the article it's supposed to be about was about whether the modern day Conservative party has become something that it didn't used to be and asked whether right of centre voters are getting the same choices they used to have - I'm no expert because I've never voted for the party and I'd be amazed if I ever do, but I get the feeling that they haven't.
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:57
Stop being so melodramatic Bob.
Yes it moves on to become just like every other political post on here - as I said, sad that it's developed as it has and I see the person who started the thread feels the same way.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:02
If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services.
For many the bedroom tax is something that can propagate social justice. Ditto privitisation.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Ray Mears wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:05
If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:02
For many the bedroom tax is something that can propagate social justice. Ditto privitisation.
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by NECS wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:07
If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services.
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Originally Posted by Ray Mears wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:05
For many the bedroom tax is something that can propagate social justice. Ditto privitisation.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:02
Oh God Ray. You've gone and set them off again.
I'd best leave...
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:04
Sad that this thread has become more more of the same right v left arguments where people argue from their own perspective when the article it's supposed to be about was about whether the modern day Conservative party has become something that it didn't used to be and asked whether right of centre voters are getting the same choices they used to have - I'm no expert because I've never voted for the party and I'd be amazed if I ever do, but I get the feeling that they haven't.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 15:02
Stop being so melodramatic Bob.
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:57
The article was interesting but the thread moves on and evolves as they all do. It's not really a case of left v right, it's a case of different people seeing life very differently. Hence myself and Archie debating our differing opinions. I've not once been rude to him and vice versa, all very civil from my point of view. No different to having a chat in a pub, the conversation moves on form the original subject. I guess you want to just keep on about the original article as it was something that hit home with you.
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/thumbup.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Show me where the members were balloted and endorsed the huge salary Bob Crow was taking out of the Union. Or was it fellow cronies in the Union awarding each other big rises.
Bob Crow was rich enough to either buy a home or pay a market rent but chose to deprive a low paid working family of a low rent home just so he could keep his cash to on his Caribean cruise .
Tony Benn was desperate to avoid paying his share of taxes bit like the bankers who will use all kinds of dodges to avoid paying their share. Benn wanted to keep all his cash for his family ......exactly like the people you were so quick to condemn in your post on page1.
like every other person who supports the left they say fair shares for all while desperately trying to grab as much as they can for themselves and their kin and cronies.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:51
Show me where the members were balloted and endorsed the huge salary Bob Crow was taking out of the Union. Or was it fellow cronies in the Union awarding each other big rises.
Typical mental issued right winger .
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
You have lost me now.
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Another valuable contribution to the debate Croesy http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/rolleyes.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Place me on ignore then. http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/thumbup.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 18:51
Show me where the members were balloted and endorsed the huge salary Bob Crow was taking out of the Union. Or was it fellow cronies in the Union awarding each other big rises.
But again, we are going around in circles here - the thread is about conservatism, not the RMT or the Labour Party. Me thinks you are unable to defend conservatism and resort to slagging off progressive activists. its called desperation.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 15:54
You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:53
There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:26
I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:10
I also reckon a lot of conservative supporters wish to see social justice too, they just go about it a different way. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is your responsibility to others. You seemingly confuse conservatism with thatcherism, which is more of a classical liberal ideology rather than traditional conservative ideology.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:02
You really do make sweeping generalisations and your posts are riddled with dogma and hyperbole. There is very little in the way of constructive analysis and in that respect your as guilty as Croesyblue for following an ideology without question.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:41
If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services to allow people (mostly ther mates and in some cases even cabinet members)to make a profit from them, they will get the undermining of the rights of workers to justice in the workplace, they will get cutting back of legislation designed to protect the safety of workers, they will get the closing down of public services, they will get a massive increase in foodbanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:09
Thatcher did not have a liberal bone in her body. She was a neo-liberal, which as you well know is something completely different from a liberal. She was supportive of the freedom of capital to exploit all avenues of profit unhindered by regulation or control. That is very very different from liberalism.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:04
I am willing to debate this, but if you are going to go off on one of your usual rants where you argue black is white just for the sake of it, count me out.
That's your take on it but it's a little wide of the mark. Also, How do you reconcile the institution of the Anglican church being a central tenet of conservatism? The church is about community, being caring and assisting your fellow man. How does that equate to your claim that conservatives are all about self?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 15:58
Archibald leitch gives the impression he thinks all business owners are raking it in and the workers are fed scraps. Whilst I'm sure there are businesses out there, my experience is the earnings gap between owner and worker isn't that great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:51
if that is what Archibald leitch thinks, then it should be easy for you to give just one example of where he has even hinted at this.
You consistently claim that business owners are unscrupulous and are out to shaft workers wherever they can. The reality is somewhat different
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:00
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:47
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:34
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:08
It is quite simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:08
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:33
Right wingers put profit before people.
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:26
If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:11
If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:06
It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
OK, would you class the current government as right wing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
Would you say the current rise in the income tax threshold was about the "people"?
How do you come to that conclusion? And what does 'provide for capital' even mean?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 16:05
What a conceited post. We have hundreds of clients on our books so I have a good idea of what goes on in business thank you very much. You only see business from onw side - the trade union side - that is there to fight for workers rights. you have no other consideration so please save your sanctimonious claptrap for someone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 14:55
There are some good and some not so good Businesses but in my experience the best businesses are those that retain their staff and to do that they have to provide good rewarding work and good renumeration.
I've never said there is no lace for trade unions although I have said I personally don't see the benefit of them I fully appreciate others do see the benefit and they do provide a service to their members. I am fully aware that trade unions by and large do a good job but the movement took a turn for the worse in the 1950s and 1960s when it was taken over by the communists and socialists who tried yo use it to create social change rather than securing workers rights. It culminated in the destruction of British industry and a confrontation with successive governments - governments elected by the people with a mandate to govern.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Why would I put you on ignore you amuse me http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/shrug.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:42
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidhooper7 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:12
Fine. Stop moaning then.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:42
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
**** off
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoon wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:42
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/wave.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:44
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoon wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:42
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
no one wants to hear it **** off
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:43
Some bloke on the 20th message down on page 1 said Tories are only concerned with their self interest whilst he was a left wing type so not like that...........strange but he had the same name as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 20:42
You have lost me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Bob Crow was elected as leader of the RMT and was paid a salary that the RMT membership wanted him to be paid. He was not materialistic and lived in modest housing when he could have had a mansion. Good for him i say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf1927 wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 19:18
Benn left money to his children. Are you seriously suggesting that this is something to be ashamed of? Are you not leaving any money to your kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:44
What any of this has to do with conservatism is beyond me. Or is attacking progressivism (and atacking the character of noble dead people) the only way you can defend conservatism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 17:33
It wasn't a compliment http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif
