Only 23 years???

Watch the film The Life of David Gail, it's a really good argument against miscarriages of justice relating to the death penalty.

I'd rather premeditated murders carried on rotting in prison than execute 1 innocent person.

The justice system isn't infallible, just look at the Ched Evans case.

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Originally Posted by chris

ian brady as been wanting to die for years, he went on hunger strike and was force fed ffs..

the prisons are full to bursting as it is now, the penal system is very much like the nhs is now, it is on its knees and needs totally reforming .:thumbup:

the death penalty argument will rear its head once again no doubt :thumbup: , but i believe many people in this country would support it for certain crimes especially premeditated murder. :thumbup:

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I think you're right.

Which is exactly why it shouldn't be put to a public vote.

If you have the time or interest, do a search on Derek Bentley and come back and let me know if you're still in favour of the death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Watch the film The Life of David Gail, it's a really good argument against miscarriages of justice relating to the death penalty.

I'd rather premeditated murders carried on rotting in prison than execute 1 innocent person.

The justice system isn't infallible, just look at the Ched Evans case.

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ian brady is not innocent or sutcliffe and many others that are locked away :thumbup:, we are talking about irrefutable doubt that they commited those crimes and were convicted for them, these are the ones we are talking about facing.the death penalty :thumbup:

if they is reasonable doubt then fair enough :wave:

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Originally Posted by chris

ian brady is not innocent or sutcliffe and many others that are locked away :thumbup:, we are talking about irrefutable doubt that they commited those crimes and were convicted for them, these are the ones we are talking about facing.the death penalty :thumbup:

if they is reasonable doubt then fair enough :wave:

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You've raised another issue there though.

Where do we draw the line?

Mass Murder?
Child Killers?
Pre-meditated?
Manslaughter?

Who gets to decide? You? Theresa May? Judges?

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Originally Posted by chris

ian brady as been wanting to die for years, he went on hunger strike and was force fed ffs..

the prisons are full to bursting as it is now, the penal system is very much like the nhs is now, it is on its knees and needs totally reforming .:thumbup:

the death penalty argument will rear its head once again no doubt :thumbup: , but i believe many people in this country would support it for certain crimes especially premeditated murder. :thumbup:

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A murderer who wants to die - why give him his wish?
Full prisons - because we have so many murderers in there?

These are both dreadful reasons for the death penalty.

From your other post, if there's reasonable doubt then they wouldn't be convicted to begin with.

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Originally Posted by chris

ian brady is not innocent or sutcliffe and many others that are locked away :thumbup:, we are talking about irrefutable doubt that they commited those crimes and were convicted for them, these are the ones we are talking about facing.the death penalty :thumbup:

if they is reasonable doubt then fair enough :wave:

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But plenty of people have been locked away for years as it was thought to be beyond reasonable doubt and then released after wasting 10 years of their lives. How much worse would that be if they'd been killed?

Is something only beyond reasonable doubt if someone pleads guilty?

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Originally Posted by TH63

You've raised another issue there though.

Where do we draw the line?

Mass Murder?
Child Killers?
Pre-meditated?
Manslaughter?

Who gets to decide? You? Theresa May? Judges?

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mass murder - sutcliffe,, child killers - brady , allitt , premeditated murder - countless locked away inside - death penalty without a doubt . :thumbup:

manslaughter - mitigating circumstances would not be a capital offence and would not warrant the death penalty :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by chris

mass murder - sutcliffe,, child killers - brady , allitt , premeditated murder - countless locked away inside - death penalty without a doubt . :thumbup:

manslaughter - mitigating circumstances would not be a capital offence and would not warrant the death penalty :thumbup:

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You're missing my point. Who gets to play God here? Chris from Merthyr? Or some bloke who thinks you should have your head chopped off if he covets thy neighbours ox?

I feel you're avoiding the important questions people are asking you Chris.

What about The Birmingham 6 would you have put them to death?

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Originally Posted by TH63

You're missing my point. Who gets to play God here? Chris from Merthyr? Or some bloke who thinks you should have your head chopped off if he covets thy neighbours ox?

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i have obviously opened a can of worms up here and do not want to go on posting all day ::hehe:

i have basically explained that i would be in favour of the death penalty been reintroduced, for convicted and PROVEN killers that are currently residing in hm prisons across the country and i feel that many millions in this country feel exactly the same way :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I feel you're avoiding the important questions people are asking you Chris.

What about The Birmingham 6 would you have put them to death?

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Would have saved a fair bit on compo.

The Birmingham 6 spent over 20 years in prison as convicted murderers, would you have executed them too?

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Originally Posted by chris

i have obviously opened a can of worms up here and do not want to go on posting all day ::hehe:

i have basically explained that i would be in favour of the death penalty been reintroduced, for convicted and PROVEN killers that are currently residing in hm prisons across the country and i feel that many millions in this country feel exactly the same way :thumbup:

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Many millions in this country think we should kick out everyone who isn't white so I don't think that's a just reason for bringing something in.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock

Would have saved a fair bit on compo.

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The cost of executing someone isn't that different to that compo

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

The Birmingham 6 spent over 20 years in prison as convicted murderers, would you have executed them too?

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which do think is the bigger deterrent croesy ?

capital punishment or life imprisonment at the taxpayers expense ?

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Originally Posted by chris

which do think is the bigger deterrent croesy ?

capital punishment or life imprisonment at the taxpayers expense ?

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I'm quite sure that the length of a sentence is quite low on the thoughts of someone considering committing murder.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

The cost of executing someone isn't that different to that compo

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would have saved a fair bit on board and lodge as well.

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Originally Posted by chris

which do think is the bigger deterrent croesy ?

capital punishment or life imprisonment at the taxpayers expense ?

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1. Someone who is intent on premeditated murder isn't put off by either, it's proven that the death penalty is no more of a deterrant than life in prison.
2. Capital punishment costs the tax payers a lot more than life in prison
3. The extra cost is ignoring all the extra appeals that happen during an execution and the fact no one will ever plead guilty again

So there's those 2 reasons dealt with

Secondly you're ignoring the fact that people have spent 10 or 20 years + in prison for murdering people only to be found not guilty, what's the time frame on executing these people?

Are you happy to give the government and a jury of your peers the power to sentence you to death?

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Originally Posted by itkman

I'm quite sure that the length of a sentence is quite low on the thoughts of someone considering committing murder.

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I agree, the reason we dont all go around killing each other is we think about the consequences , those that do kill, couldn't,generally, give a monkies about consequences.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

1. Someone who is intent on premeditated murder isn't put off by either, it's proven that the death penalty is no more of a deterrant than life in prison.
2. Capital punishment costs the tax payers a lot more than life in prison
3. The extra cost is ignoring all the extra appeals that happen during an execution and the fact no one will ever plead guilty again

So there's those 2 reasons dealt with

Secondly you're ignoring the fact that people have spent 10 or 20 years + in prison for murdering people only to be found not guilty, what's the time frame on executing these people?

Are you happy to give the government and a jury of your peers the power to sentence you to death?

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so if capital punishment is no deterrent to convicted killers, then life imprisonment is basically a holiday camp and somewhere to go to live for the rest of their lives.:wave:

you try telling that to the victims families and i think you would get a very different answer :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by chris

so if capital punishment is no deterrent to convicted killers, then life imprisonment is basically a holiday camp and somewhere to go to live for the rest of their lives.:wave:

you try telling that to the victims families and i think you would get a very different answer :thumbup:

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Just because life in prisonment isn't a déterrant doesn't mean it's easy. Someone who kills another human being isn't thinking about the consequences because they're a psychopath anyway.

There's a reason we don't let victim's families judge trials, it's because we want justice not revenge.

If someone murdered a member of my family I would want to kill them of course, but I'm not in favour of the death penalty and it's a pretty weak reason for bringing it back.

Also can you stop avoiding the question about people who have been convicted of murder and served 20 years of their sentence before being found not guilty. Under your regime they'd have been put to death, surely the government committing premeditated murder of an innocent person in that case is just as bad as any other murderer?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Just because life in prisonment isn't a déterrant doesn't mean it's easy. Someone who kills another human being isn't thinking about the consequences because they're a psychopath anyway.

There's a reason we don't let victim's families judge trials, it's because we want justice not revenge.

If someone murdered a member of my family I would want to kill them of course, but I'm not in favour of the death penalty and it's a pretty weak reason for bringing it back.

Also can you stop avoiding the question about people who have been convicted of murder and served 20 years of their sentence before being found not guilty. Under your regime they'd have been put to death, surely the government committing premeditated murder of an innocent person in that case is just as bad as any other murderer?

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the justice system in this country is totally wrong , i believe as do many others that if a person found guilty of murder or murders then that person does not have the right to live while the victims families suffer far more than that person will ever do in prison .

brady, sutcliffe , and many others should not be around today and that is my opinion. :thumbup:

I can see why you hold that view and fair enough but for me even ignoring all the other factors I think killing them is an easy way out, they don't have to suffer any remorse or loss of freedom, or the monotony of spending the rest of their days in a concrete box. They get to sit in a chair and immediately get peace from death.

Is death really that much more of a punishment than being confined to a prison for the rest of your life, with other criminals? For me I'd rather complete nothingness than life in prison.

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Originally Posted by chris

i have obviously opened a can of worms up here and do not want to go on posting all day ::hehe:

i have basically explained that i would be in favour of the death penalty been reintroduced, for convicted and PROVEN killers that are currently residing in hm prisons across the country and i feel that many millions in this country feel exactly the same way :thumbup:

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Why not? It's an interesting debate so far.

I accept your opinion, even if I disagree with it. My whole point is that everyone's going to have a different "death threshold".

My other point is that since 1992 in America, twenty death row prisoners have been found to be innocent and released. Presumably they were convicted "beyond all reasonable doubt"

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I can see why you hold that view and fair enough but for me even ignoring all the other factors I think killing them is an easy way out, they don't have to suffer any remorse or loss of freedom, or the monotony of spending the rest of their days in a concrete box. They get to sit in a chair and immediately get peace from death.

Is death really that much more of a punishment than being confined to a prison for the rest of your life, with other criminals? For me I'd rather complete nothingness than life in prison.

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some convicted for life would prefer death, and others would prefer to live tilll the end of their days in captivity it all depends on the individual itself .

what i am saying is i think the public in general would want capital punishment introduced especially for child killers and mass murderers , they see life imprisonment as no kind of punishment for the crimes they have committed .

what you have got to realise is they are not fed on bread and water anymore and put in a crumbling stone cold cell , sutcliffe , brady and many more are kept isolated from the rest of the prison population and might as well have been living in the holiday inn for the last 30 - 40 years they are certainly not suffering in any way shape or form like they should be. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by chris

some convicted for life would prefer death, and others would prefer to live tilll the end of their days in captivity it all depends on the individual itself .

what i am saying is i think the public in general would want capital punishment introduced especially for child killers and mass murderers , they see life imprisonment as no kind of punishment for the crimes they have committed .

what you have got to realise is they are not fed on bread and water anymore and put in a crumbling stone cold cell , sutcliffe , brady and many more are kept isolated from the rest of the prison population and might as well have been living in the holiday inn for the last 30 - 40 years they are certainly not suffering in any way shape or form like they should be. :thumbup:

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I think you are wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

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Originally Posted by chris

some convicted for life would prefer death, and others would prefer to live tilll the end of their days in captivity it all depends on the individual itself .

what i am saying is i think the public in general would want capital punishment introduced especially for child killers and mass murderers , they see life imprisonment as no kind of punishment for the crimes they have committed .

what you have got to realise is they are not fed on bread and water anymore and put in a crumbling stone cold cell , sutcliffe , brady and many more are kept isolated from the rest of the prison population and might as well have been living in the holiday inn for the last 30 - 40 years they are certainly not suffering in any way shape or form like they should be. :thumbup:

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I wouldn't care if I was eating côté de bœuf and fois gras for dinner every day if I couldn't leave the prison. The idea of 30-40 years in a holiday in without being able to get out seems like torture.

If some would prefer one to the other you're just giving the other half what they want then?

I'm pretty sure the public doesn't want the death penalty according to recent surveys too.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I think you are wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

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oh well lets keep, messrs brady and sutcliffe and all the rest tucked up in their nice cosy cells then eh. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by chris

oh well lets keep, messrs brady and sutcliffe and all the rest tucked up in their nice cosy cells then eh. :hehe:

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Yeah as that's the current law in most civilised countries.

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Originally Posted by chris

oh well lets keep, messrs brady and sutcliffe and all the rest tucked up in their nice cosy cells then eh. :hehe:

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I know you are an idiot , I shouldn't engage, but, have you ever spent one day in prison, have you any idea what it is like for someone to take away your liberty?
I have no sympathy with those in jail, but dont believe its an easy option.

What sort of life must someone lead to think being stuck in a holiday inn room (and that's an exaggeration too) for the rest of your life with about half hour exercise a day is a good thing?

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Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock

I know you are an idiot , I shouldn't engage, but, have you ever spent one day in prison, have you any idea what it is like for someone to take away your liberty?
I have no sympathy with those in jail, but dont believe its an easy option.

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oh poor mr brady and mr sutcliffe and poor little miss allit killing babies left right and centre locked away in their nasty little cells.

my heart bleeds for them it really does. get real ffs. :hehe:

Surely you can see no one is feeling sympathy for these men? We are just debating the pros and cons of the death penalty.

You should try debating those points instead of just posting emotive rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Surely you can see no one is feeling sympathy for these men? We are just debating the pros and cons of the death penalty.

You should try debating those points instead of just posting emotive rubbish.

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try getting your head around what these people did ffs :hehe: . jesus christ if they were ever let out of prison they would be running back to their cosy LITTLE cells BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE STRUNG UP. :hehe:

I understand what they did, now try getting your head around why the majority of civilised countries have done away with the death penalty because the cons far outweigh the pros.

I can see why you think those people should be killed, and I do agree with you even though I think it would be the easy way out with them. But surely you can try and understand the points of view against a death penalty.

It isn't as simple as these men are evil string them up, there are many more intricate details to debate beyond that.

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Originally Posted by chris

try getting your head around what these people did ffs :hehe: . jesus christ if they were ever let out of prison they would be running back to their cosy LITTLE cells BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE STRUNG UP. :hehe:

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So the premeditated murder of a murderer by a vigilant mob is ok in your death penalty paradise?

Have you thought about moving to Iran since I'd say their legal system seems much more like one you'd want that what we have here in the uk.

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Originally Posted by chris

try getting your head around what these people did ffs :hehe: . jesus christ if they were ever let out of prison they would be running back to their cosy LITTLE cells BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE STRUNG UP. :hehe:

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Unlike many I have never been in favour of banning you from this board, even when you are at your most stupid and irritating.

However, I am 100% in favour of banning you from using, misusing and abusing smilies/emojies. Your inane use of laughing smilies in the most inappropriate places puts you in a category all on your own. In a different and less enlightened age it would be worthy of 23 hours a day in a small cell with a bucket in the corner - if not worse!

He's also guilty of missing the point by an absolute mile as well, no one is arguing for the well being of murderers just why they think the death penalty isn't necessarily a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

So the premeditated murder of a murderer by a vigilant mob is ok in your death penalty paradise?

Have you thought about moving to Iran since I'd say their legal system seems much more like one you'd want that what we have here in the uk.

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i think you will find many states of the most powerful country in the world legalise the death penalty , it is never ending argument between the do gooders and the people who want proper justice .

the gas chamber or electric chair would be too good for the likes of the criminals formerly mentioned :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by chris

i think you will find many states of the most powerful country in the world legalise the death penalty , it is never ending argument between the do gooders and the people who want proper justice .

the gas chamber or electric chair would be too good for the likes of the criminals formerly mentioned :thumbup:

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I'm glad you've mentioned the US because despite the death penalty being legal in ~30 states 85% of US counties haven't executed anyone for more than 45 years.

In fact in the last 40 years only 1300 people have been executed in a country with a population of 320 million where gun crime and murders aren't a rare thing.

In fact another reason the US is a useful case study is that states with the death penalty don't have fewer murders, in fact it's the exact opposite.

Also per tax payer it costs more to kill someone than keep them in prison for 70 years.

The death penalty may be legal in the US but even there it is rare to see it even for premeditated murders.

To me it seems you see it just as a pure act of revenge without considering any other facets or arguments of the death penalty. There may be a handful of awful people being kept in prison but for me that's a price worth paying to live in a country where the government don't have the power to kill someone and no innocent men have been put to death in a long time.