Best anti religion book I have ever read , Sam Harris, letter to a Christian nation

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

IMO, it's a control tool for dividing people, I'm christened and baptised but an atheist, it's an okay gig on a Sunday for the coffin dodgers to go and have a chinwag with likewise minded.

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You can’t really be Baptised if you are an atheist, Baptism is a choice one makes after they accept Jesus. You may have undergone some kind of “Christening” ceremony as a child, but that is meaningless. Even the “ceremony” of Baptism undertaken by Christians is symbolic, it doesn’t do anything, it’s an outward showing of the change you have undergone.

Going back to the original post, here’s what I don’t understand. Who is the target audience for these books and what do they hope to achieve ? People of faith will believe, atheists will not. They are generally read by atheists anyway, so, if you’ll pardon the expression, they are preaching to the choir.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

You can’t really be Baptised if you are an atheist, Baptism is a choice one makes after they accept Jesus. You may have undergone some kind of “Christening” ceremony as a child, but that is meaningless. Even the “ceremony” of Baptism undertaken by Christians is symbolic, it doesn’t do anything, it’s an outward showing of the change you have undergone.

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According to Wikipedia:

'Most Christians belong to denominations that practice infant baptism. Denominational families that practice infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists and some Nazarenes, and the Moravian Church'

And I was baptised myself.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Again, they really don’t. Jews and Christians do, Muslims think they do but are confused about who God is.

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Oh yes they do. (It is panto season after all).

They worship the same god as Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Noah are alleged to have worshipped. Which is why those people are venerated in Islam.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Going back to the original post, here’s what I don’t understand. Who is the target audience for these books and what do they hope to achieve ? People of faith will believe, atheists will not. They are generally read by atheists anyway, so, if you’ll pardon the expression, they are preaching to the choir.

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Who is the target audience for the bible and what do they hope to achieve ? People of faith will believe, atheists will not. It is generally read by believers anyway, so, if you’ll pardon the expression, they are preaching to the choir.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Handing out joints to the flock would see congregations dwindle even more than they already are

Cannabis would show religion up for what it is , a pile of crap

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Interesting. Consuming mind-altering, suicide-inducing, highly-addictive, hallucinatory drugs makes you see things for what they are.

I'll take your word for it..

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Interesting exchange of views. It's not an all or nothing. To quote St John1.......

He was in the world and though the world was made through Him the world did not recognise Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God

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It's nothing , no god , no Jesus , no evidence , no proof , if there was i would be down to mass in a flash

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Again, they really don’t. Jews and Christians do, Muslims think they do but are confused about who God is.

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Slaves, be obedient to your earthly masters , as to Christ

Ephesians 6, 3

Not doing so well here are you

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Interesting. Consuming mind-altering, suicide-inducing, highly-addictive, hallucinatory drugs makes you see things for what they are.

I'll take your word for it..

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Cannabis highly addictive ? Where do you get your gear from ?

The Catholic and Protestant chiefs supported Nazism ........the Catholic church even celebrating Hitler's birthday long after his death

Give me satanism , the women are filthy

https://youtu.be/gW7607YiBso

Commie faggot Richard Dawkins , you've got to love the man

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's nothing , no god , no Jesus , no evidence , no proof , if there was i would be down to mass in a flash

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That's why it's called FAITH and its your choice.

But as St John said ...He was in the world but the world did not recognise Him.

St Paul was like you Sludge and he turned into a great apostle.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

That's why it's called FAITH and its your choice.

But as St John said ...He was in the world but the world did not recognise Him.

St Paul was like you Sludge and he turned into a great apostle.

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I don't see Sludge as a potential rival.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

That's why it's called FAITH and its your choice.

But as St John said ...He was in the world but the world did not recognise Him.

St Paul was like you Sludge and he turned into a great apostle.

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How do you know such a thing was said and by the person it was assigned to? So-called holy books were written by men and usually a long time after incidents supposedly took place. Stating such things as fact cannot be justified one iota.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Would you like to try and discuss this subject in a more mature and cogent manner? And to respond to many of the points I have made?

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Ok, I've not long got in from a 7am start and I've got to be back out again at 5 for a 10.30 finish-God makes work for idle hands-As my Nan used to say. I agree with you, i don't believe in god. I was brought up in a household with two catholic parents, my father denounced religion as he became an International Socialist and Marxist, my mother is still a Socialist but keeps her faith close and private, you can imagine the discussions that were had around the dinner table in my house.

Anyway, I do believe that religion is a concept thought out by uneducated men who were looking for an answer or control. I've heard what you have said a thousand times, I'd say that you're probably right. What i don't like is what i perceive as the belittling of faith, i know I've said it already, but i know hundreds of people with faith who don't take the teachings of the bible literally, they use faith as a way to help themselves and others. That may be misguided or even presumptuous in thought, i don't know. My opinions are based on the people on the ground, not those at the top who have been guilty of manipulating the poor and cosying up to Fascism and treating woman like shit. I hear so many people who are sure of themselves and dismissive of others because of what they may or may not believe in, disagree by all means, although proving people wrong with faith is as easy as taking a rattle from a baby and i sometimes think that there's an element of bullying involved, although for a long time the shoe was certainly on the other foot, still is in some of the poorest and least educated countries. Time to go :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Ok, I've not long got in from a 7am start and I've got to be back out again at 5 for a 10.30 finish-God makes work for idle hands-As my Nan used to say. I agree with you, i don't believe in god. I was brought up in a household with two catholic parents, my father denounced religion as he became an International Socialist and Marxist, my mother is still a Socialist but keeps her faith close and private, you can imagine the discussions that were had around the dinner table in my house.

Anyway, I do believe that religion is a concept thought out by uneducated men who were looking for an answer or control. I've heard what you have said a thousand times, I'd say that you're probably right. What i don't like is what i perceive as the belittling of faith, i know I've said it already, but i know hundreds of people with faith who don't take the teachings of the bible literally, they use faith as a way to help themselves and others. That may be misguided or even presumptuous in thought, i don't know. My opinions are based on the people on the ground, not those at the top who have been guilty of manipulating the poor and cosying up to Fascism and treating woman like shit. I hear so many people who are sure of themselves and dismissive of others because of what they may or may not believe in, disagree by all means, although proving people wrong with faith is as easy as taking a rattle from a baby and i sometimes think that there's an element of bullying involved, although for a long time the shoe was certainly on the other foot, still is in some of the poorest and least educated countries. Time to go :thumbup:

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The Devil makes work for idle hands-A slip-or maybe not....

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

According to Wikipedia:

'Most Christians belong to denominations that practice infant baptism. Denominational families that practice infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists and some Nazarenes, and the Moravian Church'

And I was baptised myself.

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Most, if not all (some I don’t know about) of these do not practice Baptism. Look up he etymology of the word and you will see why. They do practice infant “Christening” which is quite different and has no basis in scripture.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Slaves, be obedient to your earthly masters , as to Christ

Ephesians 6, 3

Not doing so well here are you

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Ummmm,

Ephesians 6-3

“That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.”

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Ummmm,

Ephesians 6-3

“That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.”

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Perhaps you are referring to Ephesians 6-5, which does indeed instruct servants or bondsmen to obey their masters. No different to you listening to your boss at work.

This is why scripture needs to be studied, you have to apply knowledge of what a servant or bondsman means along with what a Master was at the time. You can’t read 2000-4500 year old texts with a 21st century viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Most, if not all (some I don’t know about) of these do not practice Baptism. Look up he etymology of the word and you will see why. They do practice infant “Christening” which is quite different and has no basis in scripture.

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I love looking into etymology and I'll look into it. However, it seems that the word is used differently these days if certain sources are to be believed. It doesn't really matter to me in the great scheme of things but knowing the source of words is always time well spent for this sapophile
:tbg:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

That's why it's called FAITH and its your choice.

But as St John said ...He was in the world but the world did not recognise Him.

St Paul was like you Sludge and he turned into a great apostle.

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It's not the choice of the indigenous people of South America who were brutalised into Catholicism

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

How do you know such a thing was said and by the person it was assigned to? So-called holy books were written by men and usually a long time after incidents supposedly took place. Stating such things as fact cannot be justified one iota.

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Comedy books

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Perhaps you are referring to Ephesians 6-5, which does indeed instruct servants or bondsmen to obey their masters. No different to you listening to your boss at work.

This is why scripture needs to be studied, you have to apply knowledge of what a servant or bondsman means along with what a Master was at the time. You can’t read 2000-4500 year old texts with a 21st century viewpoint.

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Well millions of idiots around the world believe in the word of fantasy written in these age old books , feck me they live their lives by them

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

That's why it's called FAITH and its your choice.

But as St John said ...He was in the world but the world did not recognise Him.

St Paul was like you Sludge and he turned into a great apostle.

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Have you got a recording of st John saying this .............I know jfk was shot because it's on film

St John might have been a tree for all we know

Franco propped up by the Catholic church , the Catholics in Croatia supporting Nazism , the forced genital mutilation of Jewish boys all in the name of a book , cobblers , all of it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Perhaps you are referring to Ephesians 6-5, which does indeed instruct servants or bondsmen to obey their masters. No different to you listening to your boss at work.

This is why scripture needs to be studied, you have to apply knowledge of what a servant or bondsman means along with what a Master was at the time. You can’t read 2000-4500 year old texts with a 21st century viewpoint.

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Interesting stuff. So were the servants referred to purchased from another master or hired directly of their own free will? And were they considered the property of their master before being becoming free or were they independent traders? Just trying to clearly understand the distinction here as to be honest I'm not that familiar with the servant class in these times.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Have you got a recording of st John saying this .............I know jfk was shot because it's on film

St John might have been a tree for all we know

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You can’t just say something isn’t real if you haven’t seen it the biggest problem is it can’t or hasn’t yet been proven either is correct

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Originally Posted by jamieccfc

You can’t just say something isn’t real if you haven’t seen it the biggest problem is it can’t or hasn’t yet been proven either is correct

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Or put another way, you can't actually prove that something doesn't exist. But that in itself doesn't add legitimacy to it existing.

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the same god, they just kill each other over who has the best prophets.

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The only religion that seems obsessed with killing others on every continent on the planet is Islam.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Genie, you are generalising massively. You are entitled to your opinion, but you talk in such definitive terms about a subject that means different things to different people, and those people exercise their faith in many different ways. It's not as easy to suggest that everyone is wrong and you're 100% sure of it, it's a dangerous attitude to take. Plenty of religious people don't take what the good book says literally, how could they and why would they want to? Faith is a hugely complex subject. You may think it's all nonsense, that's fine, i'm no believer either, but to be dismissive is an insult to so many good people who have faith in my opinion.

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I’d agree there is a lot of diversity in terms of belief. The Quakers for instance seem to range from fundamentalists to non-theists, with a significant proportion holding more liberal views. I read they’re considering dropping the word god from guidance for their meetings for worship.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

Most Christians you know are probably not Christians, many think they are because they’ve been misled and haven’t studied for themselves.

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I didn’t realise you had to study to be a Christian. That explains a lot. The Christians I know have infidelity and blasphemy as core competencies

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Originally Posted by JDerrida

The only religion that seems obsessed with killing others on every continent on the planet is Islam.

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What about Catholicism , Spanish inquisition , Catholics denying contraception to millions of women in Africa thus spreading certain death through aids

All religion is bullshit

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

What about Catholicism , Spanish inquisition , Catholics denying contraception to millions of women in Africa thus spreading certain death through aids

All religion is bullshit

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Well said:thumbup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Have you got a recording of st John saying this .............I know jfk was shot because it's on film

St John might have been a tree for all we know

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Doubting Thomas now?

You know it's not possible to give you a recording of St John, but you should read his words with an open mind, not locked into hatred and criticism.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Cannabis highly addictive ? Where do you get your gear from ?

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I don't take drugs, or ever have done..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I don't take drugs, or ever have done..

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Apart from alcohol the most evil drug of them all

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Doubting Thomas now?

You know it's not possible to give you a recording of St John, but you should read his words with an open mind, not locked into hatred and criticism.

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Oh I have all religion you got that right , it's evil

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Franco propped up by the Catholic church , the Catholics in Croatia supporting Nazism , the forced genital mutilation of Jewish boys all in the name of a book , cobblers , all of it

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Sludge, what you'll find is that it was the people at the top of the tree who had most to gain who supported Dictatorships, not about religion, more about power, you are talking about the establishment, the rule makers, but then you lump everyone with religion into the same category, that's ridiculous. You wouldn't generalise about poor people, black people or women, why do it with people who are religious-is it because it's an easy target? You are getting a bit mixed up with those at the top who are only interested in power. That isn't only a problem with religion. Incidentally, most of the people at the top of the Religious tree are men, why don't you attack men as well?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Sludge, what you'll find is that it was the people at the top of the tree who had most to gain who supported Dictatorships, not about religion, more about power, you are talking about the establishment, the rule makers, but then you lump everyone with religion into the same category, that's ridiculous. You wouldn't generalise about poor people, black people or women, why do it with people who are religious-is it because it's an easy target? You are getting a bit mixed up with those at the top who are only interested in power. That isn't only a problem with religion. Incidentally, most of the people at the top of the Religious tree are men, why don't you attack men as well?

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We all know men and religion are *****

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Have you got a recording of st John saying this .............I know jfk was shot because it's on film

St John might have been a tree for all we know

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Yes but do you know who shot JFK?????