Her Majesty the Queen's Christmas Message

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

I’m not keen and never have been, on organisations that get too big and get too much power. The EU is becoming just that.
Here we get the chance to vote out the government every 4 yrs if the people want to. Not so with the EU.
We are quite capable as an independent country to stand on our own 2 feet, make our own laws and rules, and trade with every other country in the world that we want to trade with.
We will still be able to travel anywhere in the world that we want to.
There are parts of the UK that are in dire straits right now, whilst we are in the EU.
I see al lot of panic and scaremongering, just as there was when Scotland had their independence vote. The fear of the unknown can hold people back. I am confident the UK can both survive and prosper with out being tied to the EU. You may disagree.

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Out of interest which EU laws and rules would you like changed?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

It doesnt represent all working class folk , and although there are thousands who may think along the narrow views contained in this post ,theirs many who enjoy the existence of the Royals ,many a Welsh home or working class club /pub would adorn a picture of the queen ,this post smacks of totalitarianism.

You will have the chance to vote for a republic very soon ,good luck .

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I may vote with my apathetic approach to politicians lies and a disregard for those who have a hand in wallet by staying where I am. The weather here is lovely and the beer cheap and cheerful

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Of course it does, when so many of the people who will be around to experience the true consequences of the decision taken were not given a vote and so many who voted will be dead and gone when the true cost/value of the decision and others who did have a say will be long gone.

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TOBW, when the UK joined the EEC in 1973, what vote were the youngsters of the time given to voice their opinion of membership, were the youngsters of yesteryear not so important as the youngsters of today ? a positive was given in 1975 to continue to stay in the EEC by 67%, again we are still talking about the EEC, an economic community who enticed the UK by distributing adverts of the milk and butter mountains, still no talk of trade deals, EU armies, political union, when did the UK ever vote to go into something that the UK voted to leave ?, the voting system may not be fair but I'm not old enough to know it to be any different to what it is today and since my eligibility to vote, has always been tied to this system subsequently, I have never voted Tory but have had to accept the governments of Margaret Thatcher, as a youngster I stood outside greenway junior school for a day canvassing voters for Jim Callaghan during this Particular Election, the 79 election was the 1st i was old enough to vote in, discounting Heath as i was only 9 when he came to power, I then had to stomach John Major, David Cameron and now Theresa May and at no time was i able to say I want a revote because i didn't like the winner using the implemented system, during these times how many voters went armed to the polls in 100% full knowledge of what they were voting for?, if we were lucky, you might have been able to get a glance of a 5 page manifesto. I can run with the hare or hunt with the hounds on this issue, I didn't vote but would have voted leave if a vote was mandatory , this should have been the easiest of win for the remain side of the argument but instead of getting the positive message out they reverted to type and just attacked the leave side of the argument forgetting the positives in their deck of cards. The remain side (self-acclaimed leaders of the movement) have no one to blame other than themselves, they let the 40 odd % down with their ineffective campaign, Wales was in the top 3 regions of the amount of investment from the EU but voted to leave, reverting to type the boyos have been branded racist, thick etc. etc. I tend to think that Wales just said after generations of Welsh have known nothing but poverty despite EU investment and seeing prosperity in other parts of the UK, that's it, we have had enough of this, we don't know what life will be outside the EU, but we are willing to give it a try having been left behind whilst in the EU. If we have another vote, I'll note vote again either, I do agree it is a youngster’s issue, but it isn't now or ever was the system. Whatever happens, and i don't believe despite the rhetoric that the UK will get a divorce. the fallout will last for generations, this won’t go away in a few months, with the internet, world events can no longer be hidden and its plain to see, the world is going into some sort of reset, like the majority I would guess on this MB, I have children and grandchildren and worry intensely for their futures but will not get into, it’s their fault mentality, if it’s IMO a good or bad policy I don’t care which side it comes from, the days of blinded loyalty for me are gone, just like the football, I don’t want the city to lose, if they lose then it’s no big deal and onto the next day. Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn, it isn’t going to get any better in the short to medium term!!!!!. You have a few years on me and would probably recall the events of joining the EEC better than me, but I don’t think the youngsters were given a vote which excluded the grippers of the time so I’m not sure any different rules should be in play now, although if it was changed would just go along with the flow as I generally have throughout the years.

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Originally Posted by lardy

In the last 40 years, the Tories have won every general election, apart from the few won by Labour under one man who was doing an impression of a Tory. This is the worst government I've ever known and I'm sure they'd still squeak a win at GE tomorrow, such is the political landscape set up for them.




Which countries are we trying to trade with now that we aren't able to? The difference is that as part of the EU, we'd get a much better deal with other countries than on our own. That stands to reason as being part of a big group. That's why countries form big groups to begin with.

Which EU laws don't you like? We've been one of the biggest forces in forming those laws and we have a veto. In future, if we want to continue dealing with the EU (and we should) we'll be going along with those rules anyway but we won't have had a say in them.



But it's suddenly got a lot more difficult to live in a certain part of the world or have a spouse or family from there.





And those parts get more funding from the EU than Westminster, as we in Wales should know all too well.




I agree the UK can prosper out of the EU. I have zero confidence that our current parliament will achieve it.




The EU is corrupt. Every institution is. The question is how much. Unfortunately our Parliament has had expenses scandals, cash for questions, big business lobbying and I don't see what has been done to sort it.

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https://www.capitalandconflict.com/b...s-to-leave-eu/

If the queen stood for parliament in 2017 with her viewing figures , she'd be the 3rd biggest party in the UK.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

If the queen stood for parliament in 2017 with her viewing figures , she'd be the 3rd biggest party in the UK.

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Using that logic, the cast of 'I'm a Celebrity' (with greater viewing figures recorded this year) should have even more political clout than her....

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Out of interest which EU laws and rules would you like changed?

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Aw c’mon they’ve only ensured holiday pay, paternity leave, tighter health & safety at work, strengthened workers rights etc. Oh hang on, no wonder a lot of ardent right wingers want out, a return to British law & Victorian values, can’t f*cking wait !!! Get back up that chimney you ungrateful child!!!!

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Aw c’mon they’ve only ensured holiday pay, paternity leave, tighter health & safety at work, strengthened workers rights etc. Oh hang on, no wonder a lot of ardent right wingers want out, a return to British law & Victorian values, can’t f*cking wait !!! Get back up that chimney you ungrateful child!!!!

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Although your post is quite funny. You couldn’t get further than the truth if you tried, if you think I’m a right winger. The old MB pidgeon hole routine 😁

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Aw c’mon they’ve only ensured holiday pay, paternity leave, tighter health & safety at work, strengthened workers rights etc. Oh hang on, no wonder a lot of ardent right wingers want out, a return to British law & Victorian values, can’t f*cking wait !!! Get back up that chimney you ungrateful child!!!!

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:xmashehe: Loads of them say stuff like "stand on our own two feet" "take back control" but those are just words, they're just repeating slogans. Take back control of what? We're in Europe but still have our own currency, what does that tell you about how much control they have over us

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Although your post is quite funny. You couldn’t get further than the truth if you tried, if you think I’m a right winger. The old MB pidgeon hole routine ��

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So which specific EU laws and rules are you looking forward to us changing then? Must be an absolute ton of them if you're happy to go out with the insecurity of no deal

[QUOTE=lardy;4936004]In the last 40 years, the Tories have won every general election, apart from the few won by Labour under one man who was doing an impression of a Tory. This is the worst government I've ever known and I'm sure they'd still squeak a win at GE tomorrow, such is the political landscape set up for them"

I try not to enter political arguments but this statement is really so lacking in basic understanding of the way things work as to demand an answer.

Parliamentary constituencies are determined in order to ensure that each has roughly the same number of voters as the others. Because of the movement of people this means that every 5 years or so the Boundaries commissions report to the secretary of state on numbers and make recommendations to alter the boundaries to correct any large discrepancies in numbers of voters. The Sec of state then puts a bill before parliament to alter the boundaries.

In reality although there has been reports regularly the boundaries have not changed for about 20 years. The Labour party under Blair/Brown wouldn't change them because the movement of population and the differences in certain constituencies greatly favoured the Labour vote. I'm not sure of the exact figuers but it meant that the Labour Party needed a far smaller percentage of the vote to reach the balance line in constituencies than the conservatives did.

When the Torys went into coalition with the Lib Dems part of the agreement was that the Lib Dems would be given a free vote on proportional representation and in return they would support the bill to redraw the parliamentary boundaries.

The Lib Dems got their vote but because the didn't like the outcome they reneged on their promise and refused to support the bill so it was deferred yet again.
If the parliamentary boundaries were redrawn to reflect the location of the present day population it is calculated that it would give the Conservative party an instant additional 40 plus seats, so you can see why the Labour party doesn't want it to happen.

But, it should happen every 5 years or so whoever benefits and the current estimate of those seats is only because the Labour government and then the colaition didn't act.

So to say that the Conservative Party is benefitting from "A political landscape set up for them" is not only ridiculous but also shows a total non-understanding of the facts.

Whether you are red or blue the adjustments should be made regularly just as they always were in the past, and the failure to do it for short term political ends has caused the large potential discrepancy now. Maybe it's one of the reasons Jeremy is not trying to bring down the government, because he knows that if the conservatives should win an overall majority the boundaries bill will probably be one of the first things they bring to the house and then he'll never be Prime minister.
Like it or not, that's how it is!

It doesn’t really matter who you vote for these days as they’re all the same it also doesn’t help that people predominantly vote for the same party as their parents or grandparents instead of voting for the party that is offering the answer to their questions, unfortunately imo the lot of them aren’t fit for purpose

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Originally Posted by delmbox

So which specific EU laws and rules are you looking forward to us changing then? Must be an absolute ton of them if you're happy to go out with the insecurity of no deal

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You are missing the point. I want the UK to be in a position where we are are solely accountable for all our choices, laws and rules. The very fact that you are bandying about terms like “insecurity of a no deal” just shows how much of a strangle hold the EU have on us and others in a short space of time.
The guy at the end of my street is a nice guy, and I get on with him, but I wouldn’t want him having the power to tell me what to do in my own house.
You seem too ready to take the piss out of “ terms like “standing on our own 2 feet” or “ take back control”, but that’s what the majority voted for.
As I said earlier in the thread, we entered the common market in the 70’s ( without a vote) to form a trading partnership with other European countries. All of a sudden the EU has got a choke hold on us, and it will Only get tighter.
It’s fast becoming a power state, with shady characters gaining top positions randomly, along with massive wages and pensions.
As you’ve already said, this present government stinks, and I agree. But it’s a lot easier for us (the people) to change things at home , than it is to change things in the EU.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

You are missing the point. I want the UK to be in a position where we are are solely accountable for all our choices, laws and rules. The very fact that you are bandying about terms like “insecurity of a no deal” just shows how much of a strangle hold the EU have on us and others in a short space of time.
The guy at the end of my street is a nice guy, and I get on with him, but I wouldn’t want him having the power to tell me what to do in my own house.
You seem too ready to take the piss out of “ terms like “standing on our own 2 feet” or “ take back control”, but that’s what the majority voted for.
As I said earlier in the thread, we entered the common market in the 70’s ( without a vote) to form a trading partnership with other European countries. All of a sudden the EU has got a choke hold on us, and it will Only get tighter.
It’s fast becoming a power state, with shady characters gaining top positions randomly, along with massive wages and pensions.
As you’ve already said, this present government stinks, and I agree. But it’s a lot easier for us (the people) to change things at home , than it is to change things in the EU.

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Who’s going to want to trade with us? What have we to offer? The days where Britain was one of the leading powerhouses have gone imo

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Originally Posted by jamieccfc

Who’s going to want to trade with us? What have we to offer? The days where Britain was one of the leading powerhouses have gone imo

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Exactly, we're going to have to negotiate all these new trade deals from a position of weakness

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Exactly, we're going to have to negotiate all these new trade deals from a position of weakness

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What a load of rubbish. The UK is the 5th richest country in the world. We lead the field in many hi-tech industries. What on earth have we got to fear in going it alone.

The EU is a very protectionist Club. It will do us no favours when we leave, or worse in the transition period, when it will do its best to make it difficult for us to trade with the world under their rules.

Many countries envy our talents, democracy, and sovereignty.

For those who feel the referendum vote was not convincing enough, may I remind them that the 4% majority to leave was much greater than the 0.6% majority that went for the Wales Government, and everyone accepted that as a democratic result.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

What a load of rubbish. The UK is the 5th richest country in the world. We lead the field in many hi-tech industries. What on earth have we got to fear in going it alone.

The EU is a very protectionist Club. It will do us no favours when we leave, or worse in the transition period, when it will do its best to make it difficult for us to trade with the world under their rules.

Many countries envy our talents, democracy, and sovereignty.

For those who feel the referendum vote was not convincing enough, may I remind them that the 4% majority to leave was much greater than the 0.6% majority that went for the Wales Government, and everyone accepted that as a democratic result.

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The key question to answer is whether the UK has the 5th strongest economy in the world because of or despite being a member of the world's largest trading bloc for over 40 years. I guess we will find out soon.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

What a load of rubbish. The UK is the 5th richest country in the world. We lead the field in many hi-tech industries. What on earth have we got to fear in going it alone.

The EU is a very protectionist Club. It will do us no favours when we leave, or worse in the transition period, when it will do its best to make it difficult for us to trade with the world under their rules.

Many countries envy our talents, democracy, and sovereignty.

For those who feel the referendum vote was not convincing enough, may I remind them that the 4% majority to leave was much greater than the 0.6% majority that went for the Wales Government, and everyone accepted that as a democratic result.

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And even better 2nd in debt :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Using that logic, the cast of 'I'm a Celebrity' (with greater viewing figures recorded this year) should have even more political clout than her....

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And Gareth Southgate's England team would be in power , with their 23 million v Croatia.

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Originally Posted by lardy

I think footballer wages are all above board. They are salaried and pay NI and income tax. The loopholes come with their other incomes.

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What f"kin planet are you on ?

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Originally Posted by Barmy

What f"kin planet are you on ?

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Football wages are obscene, yes they pay taxes, but its created such an elite status gap between those who fund it (fans ) and those who earn .

The honours system is all about royal patronage. And what role does our monarch also fill? The Supreme Governor of the Church of England. And to think that the Bible states that "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

It's about time that people woke up and smelled the coffee instead of kow-towing to such establishment nonsense - and GSTQ is a wonderful double whammy for the gullible.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I would have prefered it to have been for voters between the ages of 16 and 59.

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Many 60 year olds will still have 20 or 30 years of life left of course it it will still affect them.

Are you seriously suggesting disenfranchising part of the population depending on what we are voting for Bob? Where would it end ?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

You are missing the point. I want the UK to be in a position where we are are solely accountable for all our choices, laws and rules.

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Between 80-90% of our laws are made in the UK. The ones from the EU we could veto or are passed by our own elected MEPs. We have more say in the EU than Wales has in Westminster.

What is so shit about that arrangement that you are prepared to gamble with people's livelihoods?

Also, credible polls suggest that leave voters are roughly split on leaving with a deal and leaving without a deal. If all leave voters voted for the same thing, who are right?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Oh dear, !!

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I don’t belive this, but I’m genuinely interested why do you think the EU needs us more then web need them?

What’s your reasoning?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Football wages are obscene, yes they pay taxes, but its created such an elite status gap between those who fund it (fans ) and those who earn .

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I know there's probably loopholes galore which lessen the amount of tax footballers pay but that aside the amount they actually contribute to the economy is huge. Remember when Tevez's payslip got leaked when he was at Man City? He was paying £3million tax a month

Attachment 2803

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I know there's probably loopholes galore which lessen the amount of tax footballers pay but that aside the amount they actually contribute to the economy is huge. Remember when Tevez's payslip got leaked when he was at Man City? He was paying £3million tax a month

Attachment 2803

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Interesting. I haven't seen that before. His tax was not £3m a month - looks like just under £3.2m on the full year (salary £7.9m)

What caught my eye was the £24 fine from the FA. What would you get a £24 fine for.... ?

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Interesting. I haven't seen that before. His tax was not £3m a month - looks like just under £3.2m on the full year (salary £7.9m)

What caught my eye was the £24 fine from the FA. What would you get a £24 fine for.... ?

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Oh yeah of course it wasn't £3m a month :xmashehe: :xmashomer:

Don't know about the £24 but apparently it's a tenner per red card https://www.premiersoccerchat.com/34...remier-league/

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I know there's probably loopholes galore which lessen the amount of tax footballers pay but that aside the amount they actually contribute to the economy is huge. Remember when Tevez's payslip got leaked when he was at Man City? He was paying £3million tax a month

Attachment 2803

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Yeah the Tevez payslip came to mind when I made the original post.

If there's one thing clubs won't fiddle with nowadays its their tax so I don't know why Barmy steamed in. Unless he knows something different.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Many 60 year olds will still have 20 or 30 years of life left of course it it will still affect them.

Are you seriously suggesting disenfranchising part of the population depending on what we are voting for Bob? Where would it end ?

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I would definitely forego a vote in any second referendum if it was a consequence of letting more younger people vote in it.

My nephew and neices are in their twenties, so, if Jacob Rees-Mogg is right about it taking fifty years for the full benefits of Brexit to be felt, that means that they will spend the rest of their working lives having to go through the negative impact that an arch leaver says will follow our leaving the EU - what a legacy to be handed them by the generation that was, largely, responsible for the no vote.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I would definitely forego a vote in any second referendum if it was a consequence of letting more younger people vote in it.

My nephew and neices are in their twenties, so, if Jacob Rees-Mogg is right about it taking fifty years for the full benefits of Brexit to be felt, that means that they will spend the rest of their working lives having to go through the negative impact that an arch leaver says will follow our leaving the EU - what a legacy to be handed them by the generation that was, largely, responsible for the no vote.

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For a seemingly sensible guy, you are talking complete Bollox!!!
The day you start saying who can vote and who can’t vote is the day democracy dies.
What about the generation who gave their lives so your niece and nephew have a right to vote???
If it’s gonna take 50 yrs to balance out, then that’s proof in itself what strangle hold the EU has on us.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Between 80-90% of our laws are made in the UK. The ones from the EU we could veto or are passed by our own elected MEPs. We have more say in the EU than Wales has in Westminster.

What is so shit about that arrangement that you are “prepared to gamble with people's livelihoods?”

Also, credible polls suggest that leave voters are roughly split on leaving with a deal and leaving without a deal. If all leave voters voted for the same thing, who are right?

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“Prepared to gamble with people’s livelihoods”
That sentence in itself shows what the EU has become. It’s gone from a common market designed for a you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours on trade deals, to an all consuming monster that some people are too afraid to leave, and that’s just in 50 yrs!!

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Originally Posted by lardy

Doesn't that make it even more sensible to have a vote where people are judging things on reality, rather than who can tell the most enticing lies?

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And who decides what is reality when no one knows what will happen? But at least out we can make our own decisions, steer our own way.
If we voted now to stay in the EH would would be so badly treated that in a couple of years we'd be clamouring to get out again?

A lot of people voted out without taking any notice of the arguments anyway. We, the British people, just don't like being told what to do and having to conform to laws rules and regulations we don't agree with, and this is a chance to 'stand on our own two feet' again.
Simples

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I would definitely forego a vote in any second referendum if it was a consequence of letting more younger people vote in it.

My nephew and neices are in their twenties, so, if Jacob Rees-Mogg is right about it taking fifty years for the full benefits of Brexit to be felt, that means that they will spend the rest of their working lives having to go through the negative impact that an arch leaver says will follow our leaving the EU - what a legacy to be handed them by the generation that was, largely, responsible for the no vote.

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He says 50 years for full BENEFITS to be felt, not 50 years to get us back to where we are now. They are 2 hugely different things.

Just like if you were suddenly to take up running , it would hurt the first few times, then it would stop hurting, (getting back to where we are now) and then as you kept running it wouls day by day improve your health.. (If of course at our age it didn't kill us :xmashehe:)

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

And who decides what is reality when no one knows what will happen? But at least out we can make our own decisions, steer our own way.
If we voted now to stay in the EH would would be so badly treated that in a couple of years we'd be clamouring to get out again?

A lot of people voted out without taking any notice of the arguments anyway. We, the British people, just don't like being told what to do and having to conform to laws rules and regulations we don't agree with, and this is a chance to 'stand on our own two feet' again.
Simples

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Yeah the British people are right to stand up against the EU for making us have the Euro and Schengen.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

And who decides what is reality when no one knows what will happen? But at least out we can make our own decisions, steer our own way.
If we voted now to stay in the EH would would be so badly treated that in a couple of years we'd be clamouring to get out again?

A lot of people voted out without taking any notice of the arguments anyway. We, the British people, just don't like being told what to do and having to conform to laws rules and regulations we don't agree with, and this is a chance to 'stand on our own two feet' again.
Simples

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But happy to be told what do by the Tories in Westminster who only care about the very elite in the country. :xmashomer:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

For a seemingly sensible guy, you are talking complete Bollox!!!
The day you start saying who can vote and who can’t vote is the day democracy dies.
What about the generation who gave their lives so your niece and nephew have a right to vote???
If it’s gonna take 50 yrs to balance out, then that’s proof in itself what strangle hold the EU has on us.

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Why are so many Brexiters, so angry all of the time? You can see how the term "gammon" originated.

What I'm saying is what I would do if I could - I don't expect for a second it will actually happen.

I don't get the relevance of "what about the generation who gave their lives" when the body the vote was about in 2016 was less than sixty years old at that time (the "common market" was founded in 1957).

I'd be fascinated to know from you what precisely it is that ensures the EU have us in a "stranglehold" it will take us half a century to escape from.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Why are so many Brexiters, so angry all of the time? You can see how the term "gammon" originated.

What I'm saying is what I would do if I could - I don't expect for a second it will actually happen.

I don't get the relevance of "what about the generation who gave their lives" when the body the vote was about in 2016 was less than sixty years old at that time (the "common market" was founded in 1957).

I'd be fascinated to know from you what precisely it is that ensures the EU have us in a "stranglehold" it will take us half a century to escape from.

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A fact that I've learned about brexiteers is that they're completely incapable of having a debate about anything without eventually bringing the Second World War into it

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Originally Posted by delmbox

A fact that I've learned about brexiteers is that they're completely incapable of having a debate about anything without eventually bringing the Second World War into it

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Don't believe in stereotyping do you!!!!

That is a pretty broad statement there.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Don't believe in stereotyping do you!!!!

That is a pretty broad statement there.

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It’s pretty much true though, “Our fathers & grandfathers fought for etc etc”, it’s something that’s regularly churned out. Doesn’t seem to take into account that we were a part of the ‘Allies’, some folk actually think we won the war single handedly. Reuniting Europe has resulted in a generation of relative peace compared to the first half of the last century.