Warnock getting the best out the team/squad again..

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Originally Posted by Loramski

I agree with most of that but I'm not sure how we were meant to bring Ajayi through to the level he's at now. He played over a hundred games for Rotherham, even if he'd been a Warnock type centre half how many times would he have played ahead of Morrison, Bamba or Manga over the past couple of seasons (or Gunnarsson in central midfield)? He was unlucky with his loan spells here; he suffered a head injury at Wimbledon, Crewe couldn't afford to keep him longer than three months and then Trollope thought he'd need him for the first team here so he missed out on a loan move at the start of that season.

He settled in well at Rotherham but his contract only had months to go here by then. Why would Warnock want to keep him if he didn't figure in his plans and even if he saw potential would Tan have sanctioned a long contract extension so we could keep sending him out on loan for another two years? Why would Ajayi want to sign a new one here if he wasn't going to play anyway? Maybe we got a percentage of the sell on fee by letting him go a couple of months early but other than that I'm not sure what else we could've done. Jeopardise promotion by playing him ahead of better players in the hope he came good?

It was a shame he went, I enjoyed watching him play. My worry at the time was that a new manager might come in within a year or so and want that kind of player but as Warnock ended up staying for another three years that's irrelevant now. If the next manager wants to play out from the back he won't be grateful for what Warnock's left him but it's hard to be too critical of decisions that led to a promotion.

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The crux of the matter in my opinion comes down (once again) to the lack of strategy at our club.

The best run clubs don't block pathways in the way we do.

How old is Mayembe now? He's got to be 17 or 18?

He's a dynamic winger who seems to have a lot of creative potential to play wide or up top for us, yet we've gone out and signed Gavin Whyte when we've already got Hoilett, Murphy and Mendez-Laing.

We're a club that offers no pathway whatsoever for younger players and players like Ajayi must see that.

The same argument regarding Ajayi needing to play at this stage of his career could equally apply to Nelson yet we paid a fee for him to sit on the bench.

Other clubs seem to send players like Ajayi out on loan after they sign a new contract at their club (see woodman from Newcastle to Swansea this season) yet our approach is all about the here and now.

Something drastic has to change at our club if we're gonna move into the modern era.

There are blueprints all around us but we just seem to bumble around like Delboy and Rodney hoping for the best.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It seems to me that because it has stopped happening at Cardiff, people have forgotten what sometimes happens when a younger player gets given a chance in the first team. Joe Ralls was given games back in 2011 in the early rounds of the League Cup and did enough to persuade Malky Mackay that he could feature in the Championship - he was picked in starting line up for the First Leg of the Palace Semi Final as an 18 year old. Ajayi, like so many others since then at Cardiff, never got that chance.

There's also the fact that Ajayi won the Championship player of the month award in March while playing as a defensive midfielder for Rotherham, but, at the heart of this is the simple question as to why a decision to get rid of a player for nothing, whose career has gone from strength to strength since he left us, should just be ignored when making an assessment of our manager?

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If you were Ajayi, would you sign a contract at Cardiff with Bamba, Morrison and Manga in centre back; and Gunnar in defensive mid? He was 23, going on 24 that summer so he had to go and play games. I wouldn't have signed a deal.

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

The crux of the matter in my opinion comes down (once again) to the lack of strategy at our club.

The best run clubs don't block pathways in the way we do.

How old is Mayembe now? He's got to be 17 or 18?

He's a dynamic winger who seems to have a lot of creative potential to play wide or up top for us, yet we've gone out and signed Gavin Whyte when we've already got Hoilett, Murphy and Mendez-Laing.

We're a club that offers no pathway whatsoever for younger players and players like Ajayi must see that.

The same argument regarding Ajayi needing to play at this stage of his career could equally apply to Nelson yet we paid a fee for him to sit on the bench.

Other clubs seem to send players like Ajayi out on loan after they sign a new contract at their club (see woodman from Newcastle to Swansea this season) yet our approach is all about the here and now.

Something drastic has to change at our club if we're gonna move into the modern era.

There are blueprints all around us but we just seem to bumble around like Delboy and Rodney hoping for the best.

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Whyte for me is the player we should be signing. He's 23 but he's a bit younger than that in football terms, as he's only been a pro since July 18. He's had a good season at Oxford and we got him for a good price. Now, whether he's any good or not is another issue.

You do make some very valid points though, what exactly is Coxe doing? He's just being wasted.

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Originally Posted by Loramski

I agree with most of that but I'm not sure how we were meant to bring Ajayi through to the level he's at now. He played over a hundred games for Rotherham, even if he'd been a Warnock type centre half how many times would he have played ahead of Morrison, Bamba or Manga over the past couple of seasons (or Gunnarsson in central midfield)? He was unlucky with his loan spells here; he suffered a head injury at Wimbledon, Crewe couldn't afford to keep him longer than three months and then Trollope thought he'd need him for the first team here so he missed out on a loan move at the start of that season.

He settled in well at Rotherham but his contract only had months to go here by then. Why would Warnock want to keep him if he didn't figure in his plans and even if he saw potential would Tan have sanctioned a long contract extension so we could keep sending him out on loan for another two years? Why would Ajayi want to sign a new one here if he wasn't going to play anyway? Maybe we got a percentage of the sell on fee by letting him go a couple of months early but other than that I'm not sure what else we could've done. Jeopardise promotion by playing him ahead of better players in the hope he came good?

It was a shame he went, I enjoyed watching him play. My worry at the time was that a new manager might come in within a year or so and want that kind of player but as Warnock ended up staying for another three years that's irrelevant now. If the next manager wants to play out from the back he won't be grateful for what Warnock's left him but it's hard to be too critical of decisions that led to a promotion.

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Did we actually let him go early? I know that he signed a contract with Rotherham in March 2017, but he was still on loan there until the end of that season, wasn't he?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

The crux of the matter in my opinion comes down (once again) to the lack of strategy at our club.

The best run clubs don't block pathways in the way we do.

How old is Mayembe now? He's got to be 17 or 18?

He's a dynamic winger who seems to have a lot of creative potential to play wide or up top for us, yet we've gone out and signed Gavin Whyte when we've already got Hoilett, Murphy and Mendez-Laing.

We're a club that offers no pathway whatsoever for younger players and players like Ajayi must see that.

The same argument regarding Ajayi needing to play at this stage of his career could equally apply to Nelson yet we paid a fee for him to sit on the bench.

Other clubs seem to send players like Ajayi out on loan after they sign a new contract at their club (see woodman from Newcastle to Swansea this season) yet our approach is all about the here and now.

Something drastic has to change at our club if we're gonna move into the modern era.

There are blueprints all around us but we just seem to bumble around like Delboy and Rodney hoping for the best.

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Ajayi had played fewer than 40 league matches when he left us. Nelson had played over 300 league matches before he joined this summer.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Ajayi had played fewer than 40 league matches when he left us. Nelson had played over 300 league matches before he joined this summer.

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And yet he's "one for the future"!

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And yet he's "one for the future"!

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I think that you have to take most of our manager's public statements with a pinch of salt.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And yet he's "one for the future"!

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:hehe:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

The crux of the matter in my opinion comes down (once again) to the lack of strategy at our club.

The best run clubs don't block pathways in the way we do.

How old is Mayembe now? He's got to be 17 or 18?

He's a dynamic winger who seems to have a lot of creative potential to play wide or up top for us, yet we've gone out and signed Gavin Whyte when we've already got Hoilett, Murphy and Mendez-Laing.

We're a club that offers no pathway whatsoever for younger players and players like Ajayi must see that.

The same argument regarding Ajayi needing to play at this stage of his career could equally apply to Nelson yet we paid a fee for him to sit on the bench.

Other clubs seem to send players like Ajayi out on loan after they sign a new contract at their club (see woodman from Newcastle to Swansea this season) yet our approach is all about the here and now.

Something drastic has to change at our club if we're gonna move into the modern era.

There are blueprints all around us but we just seem to bumble around like Delboy and Rodney hoping for the best.

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Excellent post. I certainly don't intend to make a habit of sticking up for either Warnock or the club in this kind of debate but in the case of Ajayi I think LC and Pedro are making some good points.

Oddly enough, it was probably Trollope that did for Ajayi as much as anyone. After two loan spells the previous season, Ajayi featured prominently for us in pre-season and it looked like he was going to get his chance, especially as Trollope was playing three at the back. Some of the regulars just got fit in time and Trollope went with Peltier as the third centre back so Ajayi got edged out. By then it was too late to send him out on loan so he had to spend the next few months in the under-23s. If he'd had a chance in the first team then or had impressed out on loan then Warnock might have taken more of an interest in him.

So many players got released in Warnock's first few months here (a quick google says Menayese, Tutonda, Immers, Chamakh, Richardson, James, Phipps, O'Sullivan, Baker, Adeyemi, Ajayi, Bird, Blaise, Le Fondre, O'Reilly, Oshilaja, Patten, Southam, Wharton, Whittingham and Lambert) there was always a chance that the baby was going to get thrown out with the bathwater. I'll be happy to have a pop at Warnock about other things but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on Ajayi.

https://twitter.com/Sporf/status/117...482723840?s=09

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

https://twitter.com/Sporf/status/117...482723840?s=09

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Funnily enough, I can answer Lanre's question 'who was the 20 year old he didn't give a chance then?'.

The reply under that - 'he doesn't care if a young player costs him points. That's why he's a specialist in failure' could've been written by Warnock, or any number of managers. It's relevant in the case of our promotion season, if just one win had been a draw we'd have missed out on automatic promotion. You and TOBW might have been prepared to leave out Morrison, Bamba or Manga for a few games to see if Ajayi could cut it at that level (and, of course, there's the chance that we might have won the league by five points if you had) but it's probably not a gamble I'd have taken. It's something you'd have had to manufacture, Connolly was our fourth choice centre-back and didn't play there all season as far as I can remember.

As it was, Ajayi dropped into League One with Rotherham and was soon dropped himself after more of the dreamy errors he was prone to. I don't know for sure but I guess his (successful) emergence as a midfielder that season came about because he couldn't be trusted at centre-half. It's been a long learning curve for him and as we had three good centre halves already then Warnock obviously didn't feel it was a project worth embarking on. Zohore's learning curve was the priority at the time.

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Originally Posted by Loramski

Funnily enough, I can answer Lanre's question 'who was the 20 year old he didn't give a chance then?'.

The reply under that - 'he doesn't care if a young player costs him points. That's why he's a specialist in failure' could've been written by Warnock, or any number of managers. It's relevant in the case of our promotion season, if just one win had been a draw we'd have missed out on automatic promotion. You and TOBW might have been prepared to leave out Morrison, Bamba or Manga for a few games to see if Ajayi could cut it at that level (and, of course, there's the chance that we might have won the league by five points if you had) but it's probably not a gamble I'd have taken. It's something you'd have had to manufacture, Connolly was our fourth choice centre-back and didn't play there all season as far as I can remember.

As it was, Ajayi dropped into League One with Rotherham and was soon dropped himself after more of the dreamy errors he was prone to. I don't know for sure but I guess his (successful) emergence as a midfielder that season came about because he couldn't be trusted at centre-half. It's been a long learning curve for him and as we had three good centre halves already then Warnock obviously didn't feel it was a project worth embarking on. Zohore's learning curve was the priority at the time.

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Nail. Head.
And even the season prior to that when NW arrived, we were fighting relegation into the New Year. We were only 4 points clear of the relegation zone after our game on Boxing Day Vs Brentford.
No way was Warnock risking Ajayi after he found the formula to drag us out of the mire and no one on here was vocal about it either at the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loramski

Funnily enough, I can answer Lanre's question 'who was the 20 year old he didn't give a chance then?'.

The reply under that - 'he doesn't care if a young player costs him points. That's why he's a specialist in failure' could've been written by Warnock, or any number of managers. It's relevant in the case of our promotion season, if just one win had been a draw we'd have missed out on automatic promotion. You and TOBW might have been prepared to leave out Morrison, Bamba or Manga for a few games to see if Ajayi could cut it at that level (and, of course, there's the chance that we might have won the league by five points if you had) but it's probably not a gamble I'd have taken. It's something you'd have had to manufacture, Connolly was our fourth choice centre-back and didn't play there all season as far as I can remember.

As it was, Ajayi dropped into League One with Rotherham and was soon dropped himself after more of the dreamy errors he was prone to. I don't know for sure but I guess his (successful) emergence as a midfielder that season came about because he couldn't be trusted at centre-half. It's been a long learning curve for him and as we had three good centre halves already then Warnock obviously didn't feel it was a project worth embarking on. Zohore's learning curve was the priority at the time.

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My points in this thread are not necessarily aimed at Warnock and are not necessarily a defence of Semi Ajayi either.

I don't expect Warnock to build a lasting legacy here, he's been in the game for decades and I don't believe he has done that anywhere he has ever been.

He will move on when he moves on and the club will build again from scratch with no foundations or building blocks.

My argument goes beyond that to why we are so unwilling to move with the times as a club and embrace the fact that football is moving very quickly and it's no longer Barry Fry on the phone in his portakabin, or Harry Redknapp wheeling and dealing like delboy trotter.

Why are people like Dalman coming out in the media and basically stating that they are satisfied with our "transfer committee" and structure that we have in place that would have looked amateur in 1986?

If I am gonna mention Ajayi it wouldn't be to say throw him in during our promotion season despite our defence being our anchor and platform at the time but to say why didn't our club see that the kid had potential and a new deal followed by a season on loan could have saved us 6 million on Flint?

If we don't go up this year or next then the parachute payments will dry up and we'll be in the same (or worse) position as the other 22 clubs in the championship.

Swansea have on the pitch assets to protect them from crashing and burning and they're also able to field a team of cost effective players (barring one or two left over from their premier league legacy!) who are on low wages with a genuine affinity with the club.

Even the richest clubs in the country are doing the same. Chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester, Manchester United, Spurs are all shunning big transfer fees to produce their own.

We are just closing our eyes and pretending that everything is the same as 30 years ago!

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Apologies but I have t got time to read all that, but I did skim the top bit and not sure why you’re replying to me mate as I said I liked Harris who I thought had time to make a mark with 3 managers, agree I’d like to have seen him have a longer run. He’s made a sideward step now and is making a mark for his new team.

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This might be slightly off topic but there's no way you haven't got time to read all that

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Originally Posted by delmbox

This might be slightly off topic but there's no way you haven't got time to read all that

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I thought the same, it's about 2 paragraphs :hehe:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What would have been "very shrewd" for me would have been not letting a centreback who Neil Warnock never gave a chance to leave the club for, at most, a nominal fee and now he's playing regularly, and scoring, for a side who are unbeaten and above us in the table.

Instead, we got a thirty year old, who, to be fair, is playing well at the moment, but he could cost us as much as £6 million.

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Can't argue with that, and whilst Warnock has under-performed in the transfer market even by his questionable standards, I stand by my original quote ; were these set of players under another manager I doubt we would be out of the bottom 6..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Can't argue with that, and whilst Warnock has under-performed in the transfer market even by his questionable standards, I stand by my original quote ; were these set of players under another manager I doubt we would be out of the bottom 6..

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All the more worrying for the new manager next season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

What was the longest run of games Harris was given? Don't expect you to know, but from memory it wasn't alot, was it? I always thought that he performed pretty well when i saw him, in my opinion his crossing from the bye line was better than any of the other wide players, he could vary it a bit and he'd look up and dink balls in or sit them up. He was also ok at beating players from a standing start, quick feet and he didn't need alot of backlift. I'm certainly not mourning his departure but i think that his lack of athleticism went against him. Hoilett is a better footballer than any of our wide players, the most intelligent on the ball. Warnock doesn't seem to want that in his team, raw pace and a direct apporoach is what he seems to like now with a lack of quality at the crucial moment. Harris and Hoilett aren't going to do a fullback for pace over thirty yards, they are both good at creating that half a yard of space without having to go past the fullback. The way Warnock plays is that he likes his wingers to drop back and pick the ball up in a deep position then just get on their bike. Harris wasn't about that and neither is hoilett although both (in my opinion) possess more quality and intelligence that Whyte, Mendez and Murphy.

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Harris was usually brought on when we were chasing the game later on when we our opponents were defending deep and there wasn't much room for the likes of Murphy and NML to run at defenders. Harris could get a cross in when close to the goal line with a defender tightly marking. He got us out of jail many times but I just don't remember him being as effective when starting and playing 90 mins

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I thought the same, it's about 2 paragraphs :hehe:

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Which says enough then if I didn’t have time to read it

“ :hehe: “

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

My points in this thread are not necessarily aimed at Warnock and are not necessarily a defence of Semi Ajayi either.

I don't expect Warnock to build a lasting legacy here, he's been in the game for decades and I don't believe he has done that anywhere he has ever been.

He will move on when he moves on and the club will build again from scratch with no foundations or building blocks.

My argument goes beyond that to why we are so unwilling to move with the times as a club and embrace the fact that football is moving very quickly and it's no longer Barry Fry on the phone in his portakabin, or Harry Redknapp wheeling and dealing like delboy trotter.

Why are people like Dalman coming out in the media and basically stating that they are satisfied with our "transfer committee" and structure that we have in place that would have looked amateur in 1986?

If I am gonna mention Ajayi it wouldn't be to say throw him in during our promotion season despite our defence being our anchor and platform at the time but to say why didn't our club see that the kid had potential and a new deal followed by a season on loan could have saved us 6 million on Flint?

If we don't go up this year or next then the parachute payments will dry up and we'll be in the same (or worse) position as the other 22 clubs in the championship.

Swansea have on the pitch assets to protect them from crashing and burning and they're also able to field a team of cost effective players (barring one or two left over from their premier league legacy!) who are on low wages with a genuine affinity with the club.

Even the richest clubs in the country are doing the same. Chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester, Manchester United, Spurs are all shunning big transfer fees to produce their own.

We are just closing our eyes and pretending that everything is the same as 30 years ago!

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Good post again. I'm hoping that the two problems you're talking about are connected and that even Dalman and Choo realise there's not much point in trying to create a modern, rational football club while Warnock's still here but that they also realise he's probably the only manager who can do anything with the squad he's created so they're just crossing their fingers and hoping he can pull another promotion rabbit out of the hat. His legacy will then be a financial one with which we can finally start to put down foundations and building blocks and move towards being the kind of club that you talk of. That's probably a load of bollocks but it's all I've got I'm afraid.

By the way, Ajayi was offered a three year contract by Rotherham so I'm not sure he'd have been tempted by a one year, or even two, extension from us. There was a fee involved as well apparently, undisclosed though. Hopefully we're learning from our failure to bring youngsters through. I'd like to think that we've got some genuine first team prospects in our youth set-up now, let's see how we handle them in the next couple of years. I worry about TOBW, if none of the current crop make the first team I think he might spontaneously combust.

Ajayi is an interesting one - don't blame NW for not putting the faith in him at the time. We had a trusted 3 and even the most forward-thinking of gaff's probably couldn't have stomached the naive mistakes that come with being a young CB learning on the job, let alone our Neil. I however would've tried keeping him on the books for what would've been peanuts in the grand scheme.

Ajayi has shown glimpses this season & last that he falls into that new breed of ball-playing, risk taking centre halves - the sort that threatens to make our beloved Darren Purse types rapidly extinct. Most dominant Championship sides of the past couple years (Norwich, Sheff Utd, Fulham, arguably Wolves) have used a ball-playing centre half in an attempt to boss proceedings & it would not to surprise me to see Ajayi playing Prem football in a couple of years as more clubs try Barca it.

However, I for one am sceptical as to whether the Ajayi of today would even make Neil's top 2 when you consider the way we're setting up. Two no-nonsenser's seems the shout & at the tender age of 25 little Semi would still be one for the future. Excuse the tangent - I know it began a matter of 'shrewd'.

As for getting the best out of the boys - can't think of another man on Earth who would've got more from them - saying that, can't think of another manager who would've assembled this group. The most Warnock side. Much like Loramski said above - the man who inherits the squad will find it hard to do much different from Neil & I expect it to be a matter of rebuilding and PAITIENCE.

Utmost respect for inheriting that shitshow in '16, installing a quick-fix & the beautiful shithousery that was the 17/18 season. As much as I disagree with his transfers/philosophy, you cannot doubt his man-management and nous at this level. However, it makes me sad to see something like 'getting the best out of' - the fact is that with our resources, we should be dominanating most sides. Call me 'half-empty' but we have had tens of millions at our disposal these last few windows & continue with this shrewd, underdog mindset (of which Warnock is undoubtedly master) - but was it necessary this season? We had the pick of the championship and ended up with Oxford boys. IMO we consistently underspend. 40odd% possession vs Wigan spoke volumes about what was to come.

I would never call for wily old Neil's head & am not quick to forget staring down the barrel in October '16, nor will I forget Cambridge '99. Yet I cannot help but feel this season, much like last, will be an opportunity missed. We will be there or there-abouts, but how one-dimensional we are will probably cost us. We should be more than to have to resort to phrases like 'getting the best out of'. As a club we are capable of more that that sh*te.

As previous have stated, I am reaching a point where I'd rather a complete overhaul in an attempt to achieve one of these mystical long-term visions you hear about. Our lack of playing identity & foundation have cost us in years gone by & I could deal with a few seasons on the wayside if it meant we more equipped next time we get to the plastic promised land. We look a decent outfit & enjoying do-ing Boro, but think it time we gamble on some new blood next summer.

(Excuse the bloody essay, 'twas a grave mistake sticking me on the night shift !)

CMON CITAY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1927stepsbeyond

Ajayi is an interesting one - don't blame NW for not putting the faith in him at the time. We had a trusted 3 and even the most forward-thinking of gaff's probably couldn't have stomached the naive mistakes that come with being a young CB learning on the job, let alone our Neil. I however would've tried keeping him on the books for what would've been peanuts in the grand scheme.

Ajayi has shown glimpses this season & last that he falls into that new breed of ball-playing, risk taking centre halves - the sort that threatens to make our beloved Darren Purse types rapidly extinct. Most dominant Championship sides of the past couple years (Norwich, Sheff Utd, Fulham, arguably Wolves) have used a ball-playing centre half in an attempt to boss proceedings & it would not to surprise me to see Ajayi playing Prem football in a couple of years as more clubs try Barca it.

However, I for one am sceptical as to whether the Ajayi of today would even make Neil's top 2 when you consider the way we're setting up. Two no-nonsenser's seems the shout & at the tender age of 25 little Semi would still be one for the future. Excuse the tangent - I know it began a matter of 'shrewd'.

As for getting the best out of the boys - can't think of another man on Earth who would've got more from them - saying that, can't think of another manager who would've assembled this group. The most Warnock side. Much like Loramski said above - the man who inherits the squad will find it hard to do much different from Neil & I expect it to be a matter of rebuilding and PAITIENCE.

Utmost respect for inheriting that shitshow in '16, installing a quick-fix & the beautiful shithousery that was the 17/18 season. As much as I disagree with his transfers/philosophy, you cannot doubt his man-management and nous at this level. However, it makes me sad to see something like 'getting the best out of' - the fact is that with our resources, we should be dominanating most sides. Call me 'half-empty' but we have had tens of millions at our disposal these last few windows & continue with this shrewd, underdog mindset (of which Warnock is undoubtedly master) - but was it necessary this season? We had the pick of the championship and ended up with Oxford boys. IMO we consistently underspend. 40odd% possession vs Wigan spoke volumes about what was to come.

I would never call for wily old Neil's head & am not quick to forget staring down the barrel in October '16, nor will I forget Cambridge '99. Yet I cannot help but feel this season, much like last, will be an opportunity missed. We will be there or there-abouts, but how one-dimensional we are will probably cost us. We should be more than to have to resort to phrases like 'getting the best out of'. As a club we are capable of more that that sh*te.

As previous have stated, I am reaching a point where I'd rather a complete overhaul in an attempt to achieve one of these mystical long-term visions you hear about. Our lack of playing identity & foundation have cost us in years gone by & I could deal with a few seasons on the wayside if it meant we more equipped next time we get to the plastic promised land. We look a decent outfit & enjoying do-ing Boro, but think it time we gamble on some new blood next summer.

(Excuse the bloody essay, 'twas a grave mistake sticking me on the night shift !)

CMON CITAY

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Top post.

My fear is that those in power at the club aren't all that interested in a long term plan. I think back to Malky's appointment. He was given 3 years to get the club promoted. As we did unexpectedly well in his first season, Tan and the board demanded promotion the following season. The start of the 2012/13 promotion season showed potential but there were cracks. After we shipped 5 at Charlton, Malky ripped up the way we played and turned us into a more defensive side that spent the season grinding out results. Malky had a plan that has to change because of short termism by the board.

If Warnock is under similar pressure to get promotion as quickly as possible, then how are we ever going to build an identity? We're constantly going to be a side that seeks to be ruthlessly efficient. Results over anything else. When Warnock goes, what's the betting that the new man will be someone to get us promotion rather than someone who can lay the foundations for the club long term?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker

Nail. Head.
And even the season prior to that when NW arrived, we were fighting relegation into the New Year. We were only 4 points clear of the relegation zone after our game on Boxing Day Vs Brentford.
No way was Warnock risking Ajayi after he found the formula to drag us out of the mire and no one on here was vocal about it either at the time.

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I can't speak for others, but I wasn't arguing for Ajayi's inclusion in the first team every week midway through 16/17. It is a matter of fact however that we signed two centrebacks this summer to cover the loss of Bruno and one of them is a thirty year old who we could well end up spending £6 million on, while a player we gave away for virtually nothing is starting every week for a team like West Brom. That doesn't strike me as especially "shrewd" on our manager's part and, although I accept that there have been some good posts in this thread arguing a different point of view, I can't help thinking that the response would have been different if, say, Russell Slade was still our manager.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I can't speak for others, but I wasn't arguing for Ajayi's inclusion in the first team every week midway through 16/17. It is a matter of fact however that we signed two centrebacks this summer to cover the loss of Bruno and one of them is a thirty year old who we could well end up spending £6 million on, while a player we gave away for virtually nothing is starting every week for a team like West Brom. That doesn't strike me as especially "shrewd" on our manager's part and, although I accept that there have been some good posts in this thread arguing a different point of view, I can't help thinking that the response would have been different if, say, Russell Slade was still our manager.

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I agree with 1927stepsbeyond, I don't think Warnock would fancy Ajayi even if was still here. He'd probably have gone out and bought Flint anyway.

The danger with criticising Warnock is that there's always a chance he's going to make a fool of you and somehow get this team up. At least with Slade you could confidently be as rude as you liked about him and know there wasn't a remote possibility he'd prove you wrong.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Top post.

My fear is that those in power at the club aren't all that interested in a long term plan. I think back to Malky's appointment. He was given 3 years to get the club promoted. As we did unexpectedly well in his first season, Tan and the board demanded promotion the following season. The start of the 2012/13 promotion season showed potential but there were cracks. After we shipped 5 at Charlton, Malky ripped up the way we played and turned us into a more defensive side that spent the season grinding out results. Malky had a plan that has to change because of short termism by the board.

If Warnock is under similar pressure to get promotion as quickly as possible, then how are we ever going to build an identity? We're constantly going to be a side that seeks to be ruthlessly efficient. Results over anything else. When Warnock goes, what's the betting that the new man will be someone to get us promotion rather than someone who can lay the foundations for the club long term?

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Cheers Eric.

That night down Charlton spooked Malky & definitely set us back. I recall many'a frantic last 10mins as we struggled to see games out later that yr. I remember leaving The Valley in the 89th minute with the score 5-2 to try catch the earlier train home from Paddington. Thought I was clever. Checked my phone on the cockney carriage to see Gunnar had made it 5-4 in the 95th minute - was kicking myself. Fair-weather sod. Probably would've finished 7-2 if I'd stayed.

Couldn't agree more regarding the short-termism of those at the top. I feel that Neil was given this season due to a combination of gratitude, loyalty, his frugality & his track record as a Jesus of this level. Regardless of where we end up this year, his time here will be considered a success & rightfully so. I wouldn't imagine he feels much pressure from the board / anyone, he's already proven himself.

I couldn't think of anything worse than employing a Rowett-type Championship merry-go-rounder; someone gagging for gig & would once again leave us in that same 'now or never' position. The boys upstairs are not 'football people' - I doubt any of their long-term visions stretch past our quarterly turnover. I'm not going to pretend to be some sort of Bundesliga 2 expert who'll pluck the answer from the Hamburg u18's side - but when those vagabonds from way out west seem to simply conjure top manager after top manager, year after year, it makes me wonder what the f*ck anyone in our set-up is doing with their spare time. The same can be said about youth recruitment.

For me it'd have to be Steve Cotterill, Gary Johnson or Phil Brown - get some fresh ideas in there !

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I couldn't think of anything worse than employing a Rowett-type Championship merry-go-rounder; someone gagging for gig & would once again leave us in that same 'now or never' position.

For me it'd have to be Steve Cotterill, Gary Johnson or Phil Brown - get some fresh ideas in there !

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I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

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Originally Posted by rudy gestede

I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

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Steve Cotterill is the greatest football manager of all time.

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Originally Posted by rudy gestede

I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

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Woooosshhh

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Can't argue with that, and whilst Warnock has under-performed in the transfer market even by his questionable standards, I stand by my original quote ; were these set of players under another manager I doubt we would be out of the bottom 6..

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That’s like commending someone’s washing skills after they shit the bed but leave the sheets impeccably white afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Loramski

Good post again. I'm hoping that the two problems you're talking about are connected and that even Dalman and Choo realise there's not much point in trying to create a modern, rational football club while Warnock's still here but that they also realise he's probably the only manager who can do anything with the squad he's created so they're just crossing their fingers and hoping he can pull another promotion rabbit out of the hat. His legacy will then be a financial one with which we can finally start to put down foundations and building blocks and move towards being the kind of club that you talk of. That's probably a load of bollocks but it's all I've got I'm afraid.

By the way, Ajayi was offered a three year contract by Rotherham so I'm not sure he'd have been tempted by a one year, or even two, extension from us. There was a fee involved as well apparently, undisclosed though. Hopefully we're learning from our failure to bring youngsters through. I'd like to think that we've got some genuine first team prospects in our youth set-up now, let's see how we handle them in the next couple of years. I worry about TOBW, if none of the current crop make the first team I think he might spontaneously combust.

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Agree. When Warnock's gone and if we're still in the Championship I'd expect a change of direction re. manager. TBOW's point about letting Ajayi go and spending a few million on Flint is valid, insomuch that he could well have developed into a top CB for us. However, he went to Rotherham and got relegated so maybe he wouldn't have been much use to us in any of the past 3 seasons. He probably needed a couple of yrs of 1st team football to develop - which we couldn't risk giving him. Warnock forked out decent money for Flint because he a proven defender and could come straight in...

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

My points in this thread are not necessarily aimed at Warnock and are not necessarily a defence of Semi Ajayi either.

I don't expect Warnock to build a lasting legacy here, he's been in the game for decades and I don't believe he has done that anywhere he has ever been.

He will move on when he moves on and the club will build again from scratch with no foundations or building blocks.

My argument goes beyond that to why we are so unwilling to move with the times as a club and embrace the fact that football is moving very quickly and it's no longer Barry Fry on the phone in his portakabin, or Harry Redknapp wheeling and dealing like delboy trotter.

Why are people like Dalman coming out in the media and basically stating that they are satisfied with our "transfer committee" and structure that we have in place that would have looked amateur in 1986?

If I am gonna mention Ajayi it wouldn't be to say throw him in during our promotion season despite our defence being our anchor and platform at the time but to say why didn't our club see that the kid had potential and a new deal followed by a season on loan could have saved us 6 million on Flint?

If we don't go up this year or next then the parachute payments will dry up and we'll be in the same (or worse) position as the other 22 clubs in the championship.

Swansea have on the pitch assets to protect them from crashing and burning and they're also able to field a team of cost effective players (barring one or two left over from their premier league legacy!) who are on low wages with a genuine affinity with the club.

Even the richest clubs in the country are doing the same. Chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester, Manchester United, Spurs are all shunning big transfer fees to produce their own.

We are just closing our eyes and pretending that everything is the same as 30 years ago!

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I'd be interested to find out how many 'home grown' players each Championship club used this weekend. I doubt it's no more than an average of 2, perhaps closer to 1. The Championship is getting tougher each season and risking players who's experience is just a kick-about on a weekday afternoon is unlikely to send a team up the table. I think the biggest change the club could make - in the event of Warnock leaving - would be to get another Dave Jones type manager. We had[ skilfull] players coming in on loan from all over the place because managers were happy to send them here. Same also applied to signings like Chopra, Bothroyd, McCormack, McPhail, Scimeca, - this list is extensive..

I've only had 2 minutes to check a few teams but in their squads on Saturday

Swansea had 7 players though admittedly some were signed from other academies so weren't at Swansea from when they were 9 but still came through the academy.

Derby would have had 5 if Mason Bennett was available

Reading had 4

West Brom had 3

And even Fulham had 2

Bear in mind that these clubs have lost players like Dan James, Ollie Mcburnie, Harvey Barnes, Harvey Elliott, Ryan Sessengon, and West Brom lost a kid to Barcelona recently then it still completely puts us in the shade

I can still remember the grief Dave Jones got for not playing youth players yet under him Aaron Ramsey, Chris Gunter, Darcy Blake, Cameron Jerome and Aaron Wildig all were given starts for the first team. Imagine how much grief he'd be getting now?

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

I've only had 2 minutes to check a few teams but in their squads on Saturday

Swansea had 7 players though admittedly some were signed from other academies so weren't at Swansea from when they were 9 but still came through the academy.

Derby would have had 5 if Mason Bennett was available

Reading had 4

West Brom had 3

And even Fulham had 2

Bear in mind that these clubs have lost players like Dan James, Ollie Mcburnie, Harvey Barnes, Harvey Elliott, Ryan Sessengon, and West Brom lost a kid to Barcelona recently then it still completely puts us in the shade

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Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

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In Reality only Rondon, Roberts and Jordan Garrick are academy products.

Byers, Grimes and Fulton were all signed in the 20s to play U23 football and develop. They spent no or next to no time in the academy system.

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Originally Posted by qccfc

In Reality only Rondon, Roberts and Jordan Garrick are academy products.

Byers, Grimes and Fulton were all signed in the 20s to play U23 football and develop. They spent no or next to no time in the academy system.

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Then the same applies to Joe Ralls so the only "success" of the last 10 years is Declan John who we let go for free!

Personally I think we did develop Joe Ralls, in the same way as Swansea developed Byers etc but you can also Cabango, Harries, Jack Evans to Swansea players who have had game time in their first team this season and they have all been completely developed by the club.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

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I think that's the way football is going at the moment.

In the premier league I don't think it has a great deal to do with finances, it's just the fact that these kids are superb and nobody wants to see another Jadon Sancho situation.

In the championship it simply has to happen in order for clubs to be sustainable.

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

Then the same applies to Joe Ralls so the only "success" of the last 10 years is Declan John who we let go for free!

Personally I think we did develop Joe Ralls, in the same way as Swansea developed Byers etc but you can also Cabango, Harries, Jack Evans to Swansea players who have had game time in their first team this season and they have all been completely developed by the club.

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I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

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Originally Posted by qccfc

I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

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The u23s is their academy as far as I'm concerned. James was 15 when he signed I believe so he was definitely developed by Swansea and I don't see how you can argue any different.

What about Jack Evans, Ben Cabango (who was on trial at Cardiff 3 times when he was 14/15) and Cian Harries? All have made competitive appearances in their first team.

It's a joined up approach. You are never gonna bring 11 players through from one age group so in order to make your academy competitive as it gets to u18, u23 you have to supplement the better players with talent from elsewhere.

Birmingham have a 16 year old Jude Bellingham who has been playing and scoring for them this season.

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Originally Posted by qccfc

I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

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Joe Ralls made his first team debut in August 2011 and I was sure this came after a full season playing for the Academy side. Having just checked my blog, I can confirm that this is correct because there's a report on a 2-0 win over Bristol City in which he scored both of the goals from October 2010 which mentions his summer move from Farnborough - it's down to opinions, but mine is that a full season in our Under 18 team means that he can probably be called a Cardiff Academy product.