30 Ventilators

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Originally Posted by TISS

Did he? I thought that was the SNP

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What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

That is nonsense, supported by the fact that almost every government across the world doesn't in fact have plans to deal with a situation exactly like this. If it was physically impossible to plan for then they wouldn't bother. Stop with the hyperbole.

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Of course nations plan but as we have seen many countries are struggling to cope with the scale of the pandemic.

That doesn't of course make it right, and most countries will have lessons to learn.

New lessons will have been learnt and if (God forbid) it ever happens again countries will (or should be) better prepared.

Plans can and do go wrong and/or prove inadequate

Based on the lessons learnt from the first world war France built the Maginot line to stop a German invasion

That went well.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

That is nonsense, supported by the fact that almost every government across the world doesn't in fact have plans to deal with a situation exactly like this. If it was physically impossible to plan for then they wouldn't bother. Stop with the hyperbole.

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Which country planned for this to the extent the planning and execution thereof can be seen as a success?

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Originally Posted by TISS

Which country planned for this to the extent the planning and execution thereof can be seen as a success?

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A success? You are moving the goalposts completely. You can't predict the when or how but I am yet to see any reason why we could maintain adequate stockpiles of protective equipment for medical staff, other than the simple fact that the health service is currently living paycheck to paycheck.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Of course nations plan but as we have seen many countries are struggling to cope with the scale of the pandemic.

That doesn't of course make it right, and most countries will have lessons to learn.

New lessons will have been learnt and if (God forbid) it ever happens again countries will (or should be) better prepared.

Plans can and do go wrong and/or prove inadequate

Based on the lessons learnt from the first world war France built the Maginot line to stop a German invasion

That went well.

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I hope that the tide of public opinion will have turned and people will have had their eyes opened. Maybe next election will be fought between a wide range of parties not just paying lip service to the NHS, the people I know who work in the NHS would rather have the equipment they need than be called heroes every day by desperate politicians.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

And how come Labour suffered a monumental defeat in 2019?

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Brexit fever

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Brexit fever

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I suggest you re-read my post you quoted to remind yourself of the comment to which I was responding. BREXIT was part of Labour's defeat but the Corbyn affect and other factors were as well. If you really believe BREXIT was the sole reason for Labour's monumental defeat how did they respond? I'll tell you. Appoint the architect of that policy as their new leader. You really couldn't make it up

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I am not going to get into a long political debate now.

Just asking where is you evidence about the Tory papers talking rubbish being a 'fact'?

I 've seen rubbish spouted in all papers from the sun through to the mirror. In pretty well equal measure it seems to me. Perhaps you have evidence to prove me wrong.

Mind you it is better written rubbish in the Telegraph Independent and Guardian! ( can't see much of the Times beyond the firewall).

I've also seen good journalism in all papers.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

There's a generalisation for everyone to read and digest as fact.

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How many liberal newspapers do we have in the uk ?

How many tory owned and tory led papers do we have ?

I will leave that with you to ponder

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I am not going to get into a long political debate now.

Just asking where is you evidence about the Tory papers talking rubbish being a 'fact'?

I 've seen rubbish spouted in all papers from the sun through to the mirror. In pretty well equal measure it seems to me. Perhaps you have evidence to prove me wrong.

Mind you it is better written rubbish in the Telegraph Independent and Guardian! ( can't see much of the Times beyond the firewall).

I've also seen good journalism in all papers.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Of course nations plan but as we have seen many countries are struggling to cope with the scale of the pandemic.

That doesn't of course make it right, and most countries will have lessons to learn.

New lessons will have been learnt and if (God forbid) it ever happens again countries will (or should be) better prepared.

Plans can and do go wrong and/or prove inadequate

Based on the lessons learnt from the first world war France built the Maginot line to stop a German invasion

That went well.

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Please dont try and defend the tory governments handling of this virus

They were warned three months ago to get tough and they pounced about , leaving the NHS which they underfunded to pick up the shit

I mean honestly

The papers in this country are mostly Tory because they’ve said they won’t act on the levenson enquiry. If you don’t believe that you’re an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I am not going to get into a long political debate now.

Just asking where is you evidence about the Tory papers talking rubbish being a 'fact'?

I 've seen rubbish spouted in all papers from the sun through to the mirror. In pretty well equal measure it seems to me. Perhaps you have evidence to prove me wrong.

Mind you it is better written rubbish in the Telegraph Independent and Guardian! ( can't see much of the Times beyond the firewall).

I've also seen good journalism in all papers.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I hope that the tide of public opinion will have turned and people will have had their eyes opened. Maybe next election will be fought between a wide range of parties not just paying lip service to the NHS, the people I know who work in the NHS would rather have the equipment they need than be called heroes every day by desperate politicians.

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Let's get all the tory voters who voted for the decimation of the NHS to clap the nurses going into work , I am sure the nurses will be grateful

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

A success? You are moving the goalposts completely. You can't predict the when or how but I a⁹m yet to see any reason why we could maintain adequate stockpiles of protective equipment for medical staff, other than the simple fact that the health service is currently living paycheck to paycheck.

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The Government and its experts have said that there were adequate stocks and the problem was a logistical one of distributing the stuff.

Whether this is true or not is something we probably won't know until the inevitable public enquiry

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I am not going to get into a long political debate now.

Just asking where is you evidence about the Tory papers talking rubbish being a 'fact'?

I 've seen rubbish spouted in all papers from the sun through to the mirror. In pretty well equal measure it seems to me. Perhaps you have evidence to prove me wrong.

Mind you it is better written rubbish in the Telegraph Independent and Guardian! ( can't see much of the Times beyond the firewall).

I've also seen good journalism in all papers.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

The Government and its experts have said that there were adequate stocks and the problem was a logistical one of distributing the stuff.

Whether this is true or not is something we probably won't know until the inevitable public enquiry

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Well it's clearly not true , is it ?

A public enquiry from boris johnson and his tory mates into how they ****ed up ?

I think not

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I am not going to get into a long political debate now.

Just asking where is you evidence about the Tory papers talking rubbish being a 'fact'?

I 've seen rubbish spouted in all papers from the sun through to the mirror. In pretty well equal measure it seems to me. Perhaps you have evidence to prove me wrong.

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https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/fake-...ewspapers-was/

Just as one example. I haven't seen one for a couple of years but in a comparison of nationals, the Mail, Sun and Express were by far the worst newspapers for intentionally printing lies and being deliberately misleading, where they were forced to print apologies. The Guardian and Mirror were rarely guilty of this.

There is, of course, a difference between printing nonsense, particularly in opinion pieces, and deliberate lies. All papers have bullshit in them. However, surely there has to be a case that the media shouldn't be allowed to do print something deliberately misleading. One lie as a front page headline can cause much damage. The apology that follows does little to correct that, hence papers (mainly the 3 I've mentioned) are happy to cause that damage. In fairness, the Mail isn't quite as bad now the evil Paul Dacre has gone. A man whose falling out with David Cameron was so bitter that he instructed his staff to say whatever they liked to ensure Brexit happened and Cameron was gone from office.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well it's clearly not true , is it ?

A public enquiry from boris johnson and his tory mates into how they ****ed up ?

I think not

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Inevitably there will be several Inquiries. There will be a Parliamentary Inquiry by the House of Commons Health Select Committee as well as inquiries by the WHO, EU and Uncle Tom Cobly. Inevitably also will be Public Inquiry as the government could hardly refuse one as the clamour for one will be enormous not least so lessons can be learned as this is highly unlikely to be the last pandemic especially if the Chinese continue to allow the markets in live animals where this current one was thought to have originated.

However, suggesting, if that is what you are implying, that a diagnostic industry and reserve hospitals and thousands of spare equipment is maintained with no purpose in between pandemics is pure fantasy. Your mindset of everything to do with Labour is good and Tory bad and your sweeping generalisations shows that you are unable to see two sides of an argument. There is good and bad in all political parties.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Inevitably there will be several Inquiries. There will be a Parliamentary Inquiry by the House of Commons Health Select Committee as well as inquiries by the WHO, EU and Uncle Tom Cobly. Inevitably also will be Public Inquiry as the government could hardly refuse one as the clamour for one will be enormous not least so lessons can be learned as this is highly unlikely to be the last pandemic especially if the Chinese continue to allow the markets in live animals where this current one was thought to have originated.

However, suggesting, if that is what you are implying, that a diagnostic industry and reserve hospitals and thousands of spare equipment is maintained with no purpose in between pandemics is pure fantasy. Your mindset of everything to do with Labour is good and Tory bad and your sweeping generalisations shows that you are unable to see two sides of an argument. There is good and bad in all political parties.

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How long did it take for a public enquiry into Hillsborough?

The tories still havnt housed those left homeless by the grenfell disaster , despite javid saying he would sort it out

You are damn right I think the tories are bad news and it will come to pass , wether or not this country wakes up is another matter , the tories have been found badly out of traction with this pandemic , they were warned and sat on their arses

Still waiting for a list of all these left wing newspapers

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/fake-...ewspapers-was/

Just as one example. I haven't seen one for a couple of years but in a comparison of nationals, the Mail, Sun and Express were by far the worst newspapers for intentionally printing lies and being deliberately misleading, where they were forced to print apologies. The Guardian and Mirror were rarely guilty of this.

There is, of course, a difference between printing nonsense, particularly in opinion pieces, and deliberate lies. All papers have bullshit in them. However, surely there has to be a case that the media shouldn't be allowed to do print something deliberately misleading. One lie as a front page headline can cause much damage. The apology that follows does little to correct that, hence papers (mainly the 3 I've mentioned) are happy to cause that damage. In fairness, the Mail isn't quite as bad now the evil Paul Dacre has gone. A man whose falling out with David Cameron was so bitter that he instructed his staff to say whatever they liked to ensure Brexit happened and Cameron was gone from office.

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Looks like he does have evidence to prove you wrong

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

A success? You are moving the goalposts completely. You can't predict the when or how but I am yet to see any reason why we could maintain adequate stockpiles of protective equipment for medical staff, other than the simple fact that the health service is currently living paycheck to paycheck.

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You've answered your own question. Not one country successfully planned for this, despite governments across the world being from right across the political spectrum.

This isnt a left v right issue. If it was, then Sweden wouldnt be up shit creek

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Originally Posted by TISS

This isnt a left v right issue. If it was, then Sweden wouldnt be up shit creek

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You say it isn't a left v right issue then mention a country with a left leaning government is up shit creek.
Again Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

How long did it take for a public enquiry into Hillsborough?

The tories still havnt housed those left homeless by the grenfell disaster , despite javid saying he would sort it out

You are damn right I think the tories are bad news and it will come to pass , wether or not this country wakes up is another matter , the tories have been found badly out of traction with this pandemic , they were warned and sat on their arses

Still waiting for a list of all these left wing newspapers

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Don't be ridiculous. Your posts are getting more bizarre by the hour. You ask about Hillsborough. It took a Tory government to hold an Inquiry into Hillsborough. There have been 9 Public Inquiries since 2010 under the Inquiries Act 2005. If Labour are so great why didn't they hold one for Hillsborough when in power. There are vearios papers online to verify this fact.

You don't seem to get it. COVID 19 should not be politicised at this time. There's plenty of time for that later. Even your darling Labour Party agree. Your generalisations are ridiculous as you are showing yourself up as a person who is unable to see both sides of an argument. It's not a question of Tory bad, Labour good. It's much more important than that.

I don't understand your reference to left wing newspapers as that has nothing to do with any post I made. But while we are at it I have raised several questions of you on this thread which have been ignored. Perhaps we should leave it there but I humbly suggest you try and hold fire with your sweeping and ridiculous unsubstantiated generalisations until you can back up your arguments with facts which cannot be fully known until this COVID episode is over. Just for your information House of Commons Select Committee Inquiries with representatives of all parties are not in the gift of the government. The Committee itself decides.

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Originally Posted by insider

You say it isn't a left v right issue then mention a country with a left leaning government is up shit creek.
Again Brilliant.

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that is my point. if this was about left v right and the left would have made better decisions, then Sweden wouldn't be suffering now. This really isn't party political, its a shit show and would be the case no matter who we have in government.

left or centre left newspapers

The Daily Mirror
The Observer
The Guardian
The Morning Star

What shows it isn't a left v right issue is we were doing the same as Sweden 3 weeks ago.

I hope Sweden stop their herd immunity idea soon as I think they'll end up with a lot of people dying.

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Originally Posted by TISS

left or centre left newspapers

The Daily Mirror
The Observer
The Guardian
The Morning Star

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What's the readership of those though compared to the sun, mail, telegraph, times, express.

The sun backed labour until the levenson.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What's the readership of those though compared to the sun, mail, telegraph, times, express.

The sun backed labour until the levenson.

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So what you're suggesting is that by and large the UK public prefer right and centre right newspapers rather than the alternative.

This backs up my point that the UK is predominantly right of centre

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Don't be ridiculous. Your posts are getting more bizarre by the hour. You ask about Hillsborough. It took a Tory government to hold an Inquiry into Hillsborough. There have been 9 Public Inquiries since 2010 under the Inquiries Act 2005. If Labour are so great why didn't they hold one for Hillsborough when in power. There are vearios papers online to verify this fact.

You don't seem to get it. COVID 19 should not be politicised at this time. There's plenty of time for that later. Even your darling Labour Party agree. Your generalisations are ridiculous as you are showing yourself up as a person who is unable to see both sides of an argument. It's not a question of Tory bad, Labour good. It's much more important than that.

I don't understand your reference to left wing newspapers as that has nothing to do with any post I made. But while we are at it I have raised several questions of you on this thread which have been ignored. Perhaps we should leave it there but I humbly suggest you try and hold fire with your sweeping and ridiculous unsubstantiated generalisations until you can back up your arguments with facts which cannot be fully known until this COVID episode is over. Just for your information House of Commons Select Committee Inquiries with representatives of all parties are not in the gift of the government. The Committee itself decides.

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Cobblers , you try and portray yourself as middle ground but you are a tory boot kicker

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Originally Posted by TISS

So what you're suggesting is that by and large the UK public prefer right and centre right newspapers rather than the alternative.

This backs up my point that the UK is predominantly right of centre

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Nope disagree, the majority ofthe uk vote for what the sun tells them even if in reality it isn't in their best interests.

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Originally Posted by TISS

left or centre left newspapers

The Daily Mirror
The Observer
The Guardian
The Morning Star

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The observer is the guardian on sunday you daft plank

The morning star is not a mainstream newspaper


We have , on the left , the daily mirror

In the centre , the guardian/observer , same paper

On the right ? The Sun , The Daily Express, The Daily Nazi Mail , The Times , The Telegraph , The Daily Star

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Nope disagree, the majority ofthe uk vote for what the sun tells them even if in reality it isn't in their best interests.

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The sun has 4m readers. That alone is not enough to win any election.

Your suggestion that Sun voters arent capable of independent thought is as arrogant as it is staggering. Its paradigms such as yours that are an inherent part of the problem

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The observer is the guardian on sunday you daft plank

The morning star is not a mainstream newspaper


We have , on the left , the daily mirror

In the centre , the guardian/observer , same paper

On the right ? The Sun , The Daily Express, The Daily Nazi Mail , The Times , The Telegraph , The Daily Star

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Of course the Observer and the Guardian are stable bedfellows. Why do you feel the need to make such obvious statements?

The point being is that the centre right and right have more press because the UK leans more towards the right.

And the Guardian and Observer are centre left.

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Originally Posted by TISS

The sun has 4m readers. That alone is not enough to win any election.

Your suggestion that Sun voters arent capable of independent thought is as arrogant as it is staggering. Its paradigms such as yours that are an inherent part of the problem

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People who are capable of independent thought can still be sold lies and propaganda. This has been proven by every vote we've ever had.

The tories are now the party being elected in many working class areas, do you think the tories are the best party to be in powerfor the working class of this country?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

People who are capable of independent thought can still be sold lies and propaganda. This has been proven by every vote we've ever had.

The tories are now the party being elected in many working class areas, do you think the tories are the best party to be in powerfor the working class of this country?

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At this present time, I think the working class needs a government that promotes business and opportunity to succeed. Only with a strong economy can you have strong social justice.

Political parties differ on how to get there, and I think (Brexit aside), the Tories are probably the best bet for now

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Originally Posted by TISS

At this present time, I think the working class needs a government that promotes business and opportunity to succeed. Only with a strong economy can you have strong social justice.

Political parties differ on how to get there, and I think (Brexit aside), the Tories are probably the best bet for now

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Yeah the party for business that tanked our economy to please some lunatic back benchers :hehe:

Anyone using that excuse for voting for the tories now is an idiot imo. They've shown they don't give a **** about business they only give a **** about lining their pockets.

That's why they're backed by the likes of Crispin Oden and Marshall Wace. And why members like Rhys Mogg are already being investigated for profiting off misery again.

Party for business my arse, anyone who votes for them is complicit. They don't care if their "business" helps the working class, they only care about "business" that lines the coffers.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Yeah the party for business that tanked our economy to please some lunatic back benchers :hehe:

Anyone using that excuse for voting for the tories now is an idiot imo. They've shown they don't give a **** about business they only give a **** about lining their pockets.

That's why they're backed by the likes of Crispin Oden and Marshall Wace. And why members like Rhys Mogg are already being investigated for profiting off misery again.

Party for business my arse, anyone who votes for them is complicit. They don't care if their "business" helps the working class, they only care about "business" that lines the coffers.

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I agree vis a vis Brext, I don't think it is going to be good at all. However what the Tories did provide in the last election was certainty - the voters knew exactly what they were voting for. Whilst I didn't disagree with Labour's approach to put any deal to the people to vote on, their message wasn't readily understood.

However, whatever your thoughts on Brexit, the Tories are still way ahead of Labour in creating economic wealth. The art is to ensure that the wealth is distributed much more equally. You never know, the current situation may go some way in making the general public wake up and appreciate what society needs is strong business, but also strong social justice.

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Originally Posted by TISS

You've answered your own question. Not one country successfully planned for this, despite governments across the world being from right across the political spectrum.

This isnt a left v right issue. If it was, then Sweden wouldnt be up shit creek

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I didn't ask the question, you did, and where have I said it was a left/right issue? Why are you unable to stop yourself from dividing this issue along political lines?

South Korea and Germany appear on the face of it to have managed this significantly better than we have. South Korea made decisions quickly and Germany appear to have immense spare capacity in their health service.

Sweden are following something pretty close to our original plan ironically.

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Originally Posted by TISS

However, whatever your thoughts on Brexit, the Tories are still way ahead of Labour in creating economic wealth. for themselves and their pals yes

The art is to ensure that the wealth is distributed much more equally. will never happen under the tories

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Anyone voting for the is complicit.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I didn't ask the question, you did, and where have I said it was a left/right issue? Why are you unable to stop yourself from dividing this issue along political lines?

South Korea and Germany appear on the face of it to have managed this significantly better than we have. South Korea made decisions quickly and Germany appear to have immense spare capacity in their health service.

Sweden are following something pretty close to our original plan ironically.

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stick your had in the sand all you like but many posters in this thread, before I entered the fray, were making the UK lack's of preparedness a political issue.

Germany has a much better healthcare system that the UK. That's because the Germans use a mix of private and public healthcare provision - almost all service delivery is by the private sector with funding either from the state or your private insurance. We could learn so much from the Germans on healthcare delivery, but too many are myopic and prefer political dogma over practicality and results.

with all due respect, we've just seen a Tory Chancellor give away huge amounts of free cash to the employed and self-employed, limiting it to those who earn the least. Likewise, small businesses have been given grant income, whereas larger businesses have not.

if you're going to be blinkered that is fine, but try not to make out the Tories aren't helping the little guy through this crisis because that would just not be true.

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Originally Posted by TISS

stick your had in the sand all you like but many posters in this thread, before I entered the fray, were making the UK lack's of preparedness a political issue.

Germany has a much better healthcare system that the UK. That's because the Germans use a mix of private and public healthcare provision - almost all service delivery is by the private sector with funding either from the state or your private insurance. We could learn so much from the Germans on healthcare delivery, but too many are myopic and prefer political dogma over practicality and results.

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It is a political issue, the current Government were vastly unprepared.

If you have your tongue so far up the government's arse you think that's a right/left issue that's on you.

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Originally Posted by TISS

with all due respect, we've just seen a Tory Chancellor give away huge amounts of free cash to the employed and self-employed, limiting it to those who earn the least. Likewise, small businesses have been given grant income, whereas larger businesses have not.

if you're going to be blinkered that is fine, but try not to make out the Tories aren't helping the little guy through this crisis because that would just not be true.

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I think their response to this has been good in terms of looking after workers, but a shame it was about a month later than it should have been and a shame they've run our health system into the ground.

I'm not going to look past a whole history of evidence after a month of panicking.