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If the truth comes out about this governments monumental screw up of this virus handling then labour will make huge gains under starmer
Corbyn , Abbott and that crew were a liability
This leaked document will mean nothing if the sun shines on the conservatives shocking government from december 2019
Whoooosh.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
oh dearQuote:
Originally Posted by tell it like it is
What is the truth then Sludge?Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
That presumes there's a Labour party remaining by then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Shadow minister and general ginger ****stick LLoyd Russell-Moyle tweeted a link to the unredacted report...
I think the Corbyn election was much deeper and cleverer than we know about , Burnham was not too far right he has always been a strong left sided socialist and a good MP, but someone did a number on him , as at that point he was riding a crest of a wave for his dedicated effort and commitment to the Hillsborough review .Quote:
Originally Posted by tell it like it is
Was a Health Secretary under Brown .
In my humble view I think Corbyn was a puppet that folk knew they could easily manipulate and control for their narrow agenda ,whereas someone like Burnham, would not be so easily controlled.
I suspect he'll say it was a monumental screw up of this virus handling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
Just a hunch.
Think Mid Staffs also did him in.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Maybe it was overconfidence against Corbyn.
I agree with your view, Corbyn was a useful idiot for Milne to manipulate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
That on the 23rd of January matt hancock made a statement to the house of commonsQuote:
Originally Posted by Elwood Blues
In it he said that the uk was prepared for any outbreak , that the risk was low and that the NHS had the necessary capacity and equipment to deal with coronavirus
All complete and utter horseshit
Based upon the information at that time, Sludge. As of that point, WHO believe China with the "no person to person transmissions" bs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
This is good but feel it should be extended to show comparisons to countries around the world and show issue by issue as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by City123
How much does this report actually matter now? Anyone can see that discard too much of what Labour has been under last 5 years means they're set to repeat recent their mistakes but in slightly less scruffy suits, likewise anyone can see that continuing as they have been in past couple of years demonstrates to voters that Labour cares more about "winning the Labour party" than it does everyday issues. There is a good government in there somewhere, a government which is needed far more than current Fidesz wannabees, but it doesn't focus on that then we'll never get to see it.
Well that suggests Labour were not right wing as the Tories .Quote:
Originally Posted by City123
If Labour want power they have to move to the centrecentralist ground ,if they don't then its another long wait in the politcal wilderness ,I think its fair to assume from recent elections since Thatcher the bulk of the country would like a social democratic party with a slight pinch of conservatism.
If they didn't Corbyn or Miliband would have romped home by now.
Labour was a right wing party for many years in between Foot and Corbyn, the Conservatives are extremely right wing, Plaid are a middle of the road party been fractionally left of centre for years if not forever yet they get painted as on the extremes by the right wing press who try to protray the Cons and Labour as either side of the centre line when the reality was both Cons and Labour were out on the right (as well as Lib-Dems) and the likes of Plaid and the SNP politically occupy the centre ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Well were all entitled to a view .
I simply don't agree with your analysis.
Although leaked, the Labour Party report seems to have got some traction and also seems to be accepted even by those politicians and journalists who were most fanatical in weaponising the antisemitism allegations to attack Corbyn - from some of the main coup leaders to Guardian/Observer columnists.
There appears to be an expectation that Starmer will have to make an example of some of the staffers who plotted against the Corbyn leadership (presumably the MPs and peers who plotted with them will avoid trouble) to balance out the cull of Corbynistas.
Misleading the leader on antisemitism allegations, slow timing investigations to embarrass him, sabotaging elements of the 2017 election campaign, suppressing islamophobia allegations against Corbyn critics, and indulging in sexist, racist and verbally violent abuse in social media chat groups must surely have consequences.
This is a real test for Starmer and Rayner. I am not confident they will pass!
Why do you disagree with the political compass site plotting of the parties over the years ?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Blair, Brown and Mandelson were seen not so much as being leading figures in the Labour party but leading figures in a party routinely called NuLabour as they had abandoned clause 4, officially abandoned clause 4 actually and embraced the free market.
As an aside the imposters in the Labour party are not momentum but the red Tories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
That's your view not mine ,I actually don't see the Tories as the right movement a lot of folk say they are , ell certainly not in the Thatcher ,theybare more socially minded and appear to embrace a multi cultured approach to its cabinet placings and have avenues for women to come to the fore.
Blair , Mandelson were Liberal social Democrats not right wing in my book , just central in a Labour party which did get a landslide victory twice?
As for clause 4 even Hugh Gaitskell*wanted it changed as it was outdated ,not fit for purpose , and hampered Labour in the modern age, it is and was an outdated Fabian born ideilogy dating back to its creation in 1917, things do change ,so do visions , that's how parties and life evolves if you stay in the past you sadly remain there it's clear through the ballot box the country doesn't want it
Even the great John Smith wanted change Smith he brought Gordon Brown as shadow Chancellor Blair as his shadow Home Secretary.
Smith whom recognised change was needed once said
“I believe we must replace the out-of-date idea of an all-powerful nation state with a new and dynamic framework of government.”*
The new version of clause 4 bravely changed by Blair 1995 reads
“The Labour Party is a (democratic socialist party)."
"""It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.""
I do not think (Sir Kier ) will disagree with this .
The Conservatives are deemed to be off the scale for being right wing per the political compass site.
No mention by you of Hardie, Atlee, Bevan, Foot, Tony Benn etc I see.
The perception of the Conservatives is skewed by the right wing press not wanting to protray them as being very right wing and this is exacerbated by the state broadcaster following Labour over to the right in Blair's years and being desperate to pitch themselves between Labour and the Conservatives and as a result only giving right wing views and rarely views from the middle ground as put forward by the likes of Plaid and the SNP.
The Conservatives being economically right wing is borne out by their austerity policies resulting in foodbanks and homelessness.
I will admit of being more centrais, t and yep I'd could never seen Benn , Foot or Corbyn delivering a political vision or choice I'd like , and I think a lot of labour voters think the same .Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
More centralist as in been between NuLabour and the Conservatives out on the right wing ? or more centralist as in supporting social justice policies and equality like Plaid in Wales, the SNP in Scotland and the Social Democratic and Labour party in Ireland ?
Just more centraist like a John Smith labour type vision with a hint of Blarism, not keen on nationalism in any shape or formQuote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Oh ''one more heave'' Smith, the do nothing, say nothing type approach guy,
with a hint of Blairsm you say, many say that guy is a bigger Tory than Mrs Thatcher was.
Unionist parties are nationalist parties any party that believes in borders are.
Gosh are you saying Smith was a bigger Tory than Thatcher or Blair ?? those quotes are very new to me .Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Yes they were centralists within a Labour party , ( Smith less so than Blair ) ,yes they were modernists, but more right wing than Thatcher !!!!! maybe stretching it in my view .
As you say '('one more heave ") this is my final reply I just want to avoid repeating myself , you have my view on record I'm a centralists socialist , who thinks we should move on from the old socialist model , think new and better than Tories , as Labour since Blair has failed to attract the imagination of voters, in fact they have lost many of them, feel free to quote or bookmark my view .
I said many think that Blair was a bigger Tory than Mrs Thatcher was, not Smith.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
You say you are a centralist socialist, what is that ?, to me a Socialist is someone out on the left of the political spectrum therefore a centralist Socialist would be halfway between been being a standard left winger and being a fully fledged Communist.
It strikes me you are a centralist right winger and not on the left at all.
I have a question for you 'life on mars' who have you voted for in General Elections over the years ?
I voted Foot in 83 and Plaid ever since, Labour abandoned me and not the other way around after Foot, I have stood true (on a political graph) to my political leanings all my voting life.
Which party or parties have you voted for over the years 'life on mars' ?
Voted Labour all my life , until Corbyn , loathed the man, I hold him responsible and his backers for destroying the party . They had a great chance to beat a poor Tory party under May , however Infighting and partly ideology destroyed that moment .Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Did you vote for Foot ?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
and who did you vote for if you did not vote for Corbyn ?
I did vote for Foot , think he even won ore seats than Corbyn , gosh they were different times , I would not repeat that now in this modern and different world , yep I was young and still tainted by Thatcher .Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
This time around and last I voted for L.D . , as it had a few decent ex Labour MP,s, I will admit though as with other abour voters I hovered over the Tory tick box ( just to halt the Corbyn machine ) thankfully millions of other Labour voters took that decision for me.
So what was wrong with Corbyn ?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
the alternative leaders from the other big Westminster parties were Boris and Swinson who imo were worse.
As I said it was a personal and bad taste choice, as I think the man is not that nice an individual , and I found the machinery and people behind him even more repellent .Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Simple as that , yes more repellant than Boris or Swinson , I blame Corbynsim for destroying the party , or was that the plan??
He did seem to hold the core beliefs and values of Labour, I think that the press did a disingenuous number on him and now some leaked document seems to suggest that right wing infiltrators (red Tories if you like) into the party did a number on him actively wanting him to lose, was the headlines I seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Did you vote for Ed Milliband?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Who did you vote for in the last two general elections if it wasn't Corbyn?
Already told Trampie keep upQuote:
Originally Posted by Heisenberg
You're saying that you voted for Miliband and then Farron and then Swinson? Is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars