Is the media more interested in criticizing than reporting?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

This all started because according to you I took a "joke" of yours seriously - I guess you've put that one to bed there :hehe:.

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It's called discussion, Bob. Still, you've got to have something to do whilst you can't castigate the club for failing the latest and greatest in your mind that never makes it... :ayatollah:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But the discrepancy ion the infaction figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspoected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
i'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

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Exactly. There's no worldwide standardised methodology enabling an easy comparison. Somebody at mum's care home been in and out of hospital with heart attacks last few years - had another, taken into hospital, died of another heart attack. Found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital, as care home have informed people. If so, would she count as a covid-19 death despite that being a questionable cause of death?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But the discrepancy in the infection figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

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But they haven't had a huge increase in deaths (covid or non covid) as we have. It's another mark against us if anything.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Exactly. There's no worldwide standardised methodology enabling an easy comparison. Somebody at mum's care home been in and out of hospital with heart attacks last few years - had another, taken into hospital, died of another heart attack. Found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital, as care home have informed people. If so, would she count as a covid-19 death despite that being a questionable cause of death?

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The excess death charts in this article make most sense to me when trying to compare how different countries have performed

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

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Originally Posted by Veg1960

The excess death charts in this article make most sense to me when trying to compare how different countries have performed

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

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Again, without standardised reporting across nations, Italy I read doesn't count care home deaths for example.

It's also incredibly difficult to pin point covid-19 as cause of death. Having covid-19 at time of death doesn't make it cause of death, for example someone having heart attacks.

I don't think a clear picture will emerge for years.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

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I feel like you're missing the point tbh. How they're operating needs to be criticised if that's what they're doing.

He's not complaining because he's worried about his own saftey but this is the sort of thing that will give us more infections.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

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"Sorry Sir, you can't board the flight, too many on so social distancing issues"

"Wahhhh not fair! I want to travel!"

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Again, without standardised reporting across nations, Italy I read doesn't count care home deaths for example.

It's also incredibly difficult to pin point covid-19 as cause of death. Having covid-19 at time of death doesn't make it cause of death, for example someone having heart attacks.

I don't think a clear picture will emerge for years.

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A look at the excess death chart gives a pretty accurate view though.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

"Sorry Sir, you can't board the flight, too many on so social distancing issues"

"Wahhhh not fair! I want to travel!"

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He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

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And in another thread you said going to work is not as dangerous as going to the pub lmaa

He had an option to get off the plane and not fly, if he was so incenced by the prceedings why didn't he take that option?
No, fly first, get what he wants, then make a big fuss of complaining afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I feel like you're missing the point tbh. How they're operating needs to be criticised if that's what they're doing.

He's not complaining because he's worried about his own saftey but this is the sort of thing that will give us more infections.

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That's certainly valid.

How many in turn would complain at being told they could not board the flight as a consequence of adopting stricter social distancing?

At some point we need to realise that we're not going to eradicate transmissions via lockdown but instead has slowed the rate well enough to allow most day to day activities to return, with modifications, and that the spread is slowed enough to be handled by NHS resources.

For everyone obeying the lockdown, there are others getting antsy, parents in our street have been mixing as their kids play in the road, nearby there's been a few street parties. It's partly human psychology, "it's been X weeks, this is getting ridiculous" type views.

A staged, staggered release from lockdown needs to occur otherwise people are just going to say "sod it" and break it off their own back in greater numbers.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

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Is he an essential worker? Unable to work remotely?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

A look at the excess death chart gives a pretty accurate view though.

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It's better than a lot of other measures, sure.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

And in another thread you said going to work is not as dangerous as going to the pub lmaa

He had an option to get off the plane and not fly, if he was so incenced by the prceedings why didn't he take that option?
No, fly first, get what he wants, then make a big fuss of complaining afterwards.

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Point 1, going to work isn't as bad for spreading the virus as going to the pub, it is also more necessary.

Point 2, are you saying we shouldn't ever complain about anything, even if as in this case it leads to things becomming more safe?

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Is he an essential worker?

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If he isn't does that mean he can't complain?

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

I wonder why you won't.

Are there inefficiencies in public sector? Absolutely. Can public sector be improved by addressing those? Sure. Nobody seems to want that discussion for some strange reason.

I worked at BT a few years after privatisation and tbh the culture change needed was still ongoing. Newer grads coming in had fresher ideas, were getting things done. There was still a large number resistant because they were winding their time down to retirement and nice pensions. That's part of the reason Enterprise House ended up closing down; plenty of younger, capable staff simply left.

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I can't speak for the whole public sector (or private - I worked in both) and neither can you, but to claim there is no interest in finding more efficient and cost effective ways of working in the public sector is plain nonsense.

For at least 20 years - and I think earlier, from the early 1990s - there has been a constant effort to reduce costs, maximise revenues and make working practices smarter and more efficient. There was bound to be given that was a period of reducing resources (especially government grants and subsidies) and rising demand. It was also the era that began with Compulsory Competitive Tendering under the Major government, passed through the Best Value Reviews of Blair and moved into systematic service inspections by the Audit Commission and other agencies, combined with best practice and cost sharing across public sector organisations - including for instance early attempts at 'invest to save' through housing, health and care services.

It hasn't made the public sector 100% efficient (nor is the private sector) and there will be major differences of organisational practice and culture across local and central government, major public services, and with some geographical variations too - but to claim no one is interested in 'addressing' inefficiencies is cobblers!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But the discrepancy in the infection figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

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So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If he isn't does that mean he can't complain?

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If he's a non-essential worker then he shouldn't be travelling.

Does it mean airline are right? No. He can't take any moral high ground on that issue.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

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So an inaccuracy can occur in one category but not others?

Can you explain how a covid-19 death is registered in all nations - is it merely listing it if a person dies who happens to have covid-19?

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

If he's a non-essential worker then he shouldn't be travelling.

Does it mean airline are right? No. He can't take any moral high ground on that issue.

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Is he taking a moral highground? It seems to me like he's raising an issue which will benefit anyone travelling with that airline.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So an inaccuracy can occur in one category but not others?

Can you explain how a covid-19 death is registered in all nations - is it merely listing it if a person dies who happens to have covid-19?

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Well you can look at overall deaths in Germany and make a judgement from that, unless you think they aren't registering deaths.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Is he taking a moral highground? It seems to me like he's raising an issue which will benefit anyone travelling with that airline.

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Agreed but he's adding to the problem by travelling if not a non-essential worker, right?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Well you can look at overall deaths in Germany and make a judgement from that, unless you think they aren't registering deaths.

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True but how do you determine a death as due to covid-19?

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Agreed but he's adding to the problem by travelling if not a non-essential worker, right?

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Yep

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

True but how do you determine a death as due to covid-19?

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It doesn't really matter does it? if a country has had a huge rise in the number of deaths in the last couple of months compared to the preceding months and the same months for the previous years then that will be due to Covid unless there has been something else huge happening.

And if a country hasn't seen a huge rise in the death rate then they haven't had a lot of extra deaths caused by Covid.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

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I have no hard opinion on it, but in UK if the virus "Is present" it is recorded as the cause of death in every case regardless of what other illness condition whatever may be present. Perhaps in other countries it is only recorded as cause of death if the doctor is certain it was the direct cause. Until all the information is to hand we cannot compare.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It doesn't really matter does it? if a country has had a huge rise in the number of deaths in the last couple of months compared to the preceding months and the same months for the previous years then that will be due to Covid unless there has been something else huge happening.

And if a country hasn't seen a huge rise in the death rate then they haven't had a lot of extra deaths caused by Covid.

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How to quantify the former though? Could well be an outlier for other reason, there's no direct cause and effect. Unlikely but cant be discounted.

I suspect that whilst covid-19 is triggering underlying medical issues, leading to more deaths we can never absolutely know if those people would have died regardless - or indeed, indirectly. My mum has heart and kidney issues, has been staying in - as a result, less exercise. If anything did happen god forbid, then I'd view it as possibly an indirect cause of covid-19 / possibly her time had come due to her existing issues.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I have no hard opinion on it, but in UK if the virus "Is present" it is recorded as the cause of death in every case regardless of what other illness condition whatever may be present. Perhaps in other countries it is only recorded as cause of death if the doctor is certain it was the direct cause. Until all the information is to hand we cannot compare.

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Again, someone died in hospital from mum's care home. She's had numerous heart attacks over the years, died from a second heart attack whilst in hospital. She was found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital. If that was counted as a "covid-19 death" as a consequence then quite frankly it's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Point 1, going to work isn't as bad for spreading the virus as going to the pub, it is also more necessary.

Point 2, are you saying we shouldn't ever complain about anything, even if as in this case it leads to things becomming more safe?

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Your first comment is an opinon, not yet a fact.

the point I was making was that if he felt so endangered by the situation why did he fly? Why didn't he get off the plane and then complain? Probably because it suited him to fly, but he thought all the other people shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

In reality because of ther recirculated air on the plane probably even with half the numbers any infection would have spread if it was going to.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Again, someone died in hospital from mum's care home. She's had numerous heart attacks over the years, died from a second heart attack whilst in hospital. She was found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital. If that was counted as a "covid-19 death" as a consequence then quite frankly it's ridiculous.

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But there is a huge "extra" number of deaths compared to almost every other year on record. What do you think has caused a huge spike in deaths this year compared to every other year.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Your first comment is an opinon, not yet a fact.

the point I was making was that if he felt so endangered by the situation why did he fly? Why didn't he get off the plane and then complain? Probably because it suited him to fly, but he thought all the other people shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

In reality because of ther recirculated air on the plane probably even with half the numbers any infection would have spread if it was going to.

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No it isn't it's why the advice at the start of february was to close pubs and restaurants. Which bit do you think isn't a fact?

I don't see the reason why the guy flew makes a difference to the behaviour of the airline.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

But there is a huge "extra" number of deaths compared to almost every other year on record. What do you think has caused a huge spike in deaths this year compared to every other year.

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It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

No it isn't it's why the advice at the start of february was to close pubs and restaurants. Which bit do you think isn't a fact?

I don't see the reason why the guy flew makes a difference to the behaviour of the airline.

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It isn't a fact becasue no one has gone back to work yet who is locked down and no one has gone to the pub, so there are no numbers to show it is a fact. It may well be a sound scientific assumption but it is not a fact.
People on here and other pleaces, as i have said before, put things out as fact on the principle that if it is said often enough it will be accepted as fact, but what you said is not a fact (yet)

The guy flying makes no difference to the conduct of the airline but it does somewhat lessen his argument about the total disregard for safety if he chose to fly and complain afterwards.
His words would carry more weight if he had quite understandably refused to fly and insisted they take half the other people off the plane too. But his own personal want was of more importance to him than his own of other peoples safety (He may have been the virus carrier) until after he had acheived what he wanted. Only then did he choose to start stamping his feet and complaining. That's the point.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

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So when a country has an extra 20,000 deaths this year compared to every other year you can't say they're covid related?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

It isn't a fact becasue no one has gone back to work yet who is locked down and no one has gone to the pub, so there are no numbers to show it is a fact. It may well be a sound scientific assumption but it is not a fact.
People on here and other pleaces, as i have said before, put things out as fact on the principle that if it is said often enough it will be accepted as fact, but what you said is not a fact (yet)

The guy flying makes no difference to the conduct of the airline but it does somewhat lessen his argument about the total disregard for safety if he chose to fly and complain afterwards.
His words would carry more weight if he had quite understandably refused to fly and insisted they take half the other people off the plane too. But his own personal want was of more importance to him than his own of other peoples safety (He may have been the virus carrier) until after he had acheived what he wanted. Only then did he choose to start stamping his feet and complaining. That's the point.

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It's a fact, do you think it wasn't spreading before when people were in the pub and in work?

So you think he should have just kept quiet then?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It's a fact, do you think it wasn't spreading before when people were in the pub and in work?

So you think he should have just kept quiet then?

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Yes it was but there are no figures that prove it was spreading faster in pubs than in workplaces.

Bearing in mind that he chose to fly and put all the people he had interacted with since at higher risk of infection due to his action then probably yes.
As I said if he was so upset he should have complained at the time. It's like someone eating a steak in a restaurant then complaining it was no good. The question would be "Well why did you eat it?"
If he wanted to complain he should have done it quietly to the airline, not sought to put himself in the media. His colleagues might not think his actions were so honourable given that he got on the plane and put them all at risk.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Yes it was but there are no figures that prove it was spreading faster in pubs than in workplaces.

Bearing in mind that he chose to fly and put all the people he had interacted with since at higher risk of infection due to his action then probably yes.
As I said if he was so upset he should have complained at the time. It's like someone eating a steak in a restaurant then complaining it was no good. The question would be "Well why did you eat it?"
If he wanted to complain he should have done it quietly to the airline, not sought to put himself in the media. His colleagues might not think his actions were so honourable given that he got on the plane and put them all at risk.

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Do you think there have never been viruses before this one? It's known where they spread easier. And even if they didn't one place is more necessary than the other.

So you think he shouldn't have raised that there is an issue with the airline operating like that then?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Do you think there have never been viruses before this one? It's known where they spread easier. And even if they didn't one place is more necessary than the other.

So you think he shouldn't have raised that there is an issue with the airline operating like that then?

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All have different natures though, can't compare one virus to another.

Should have raised the issue? Sure. Was he happy to put up with it to get to work, which I doubt was essential? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

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Isn't excess mortality the data the government keeps telling us that we need to focus on to get a more meaningful picture?