How can Jersey be so far ahead of us ?

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Yes everyone is in the same boat with regards funerals, she didn’t have any children her nieces and nephews were like her children but neither her brother or her any of her nieces or nephews could attend the funeral because they are in the vulnerable category, so my missus had to organise it all and only her and her sister could attend. it’s shitty but life must go on.

I’m not in anyway saying some of these deaths could have been avoided and when the dust has settled hopefully there will be a proper investigation, all I am saying is we cannot just lockdown until there is a vaccine. There might never be one. Its unfortunate but more people are going to die, that’s a fact, and we are going to have to learn to live with it.

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I agree we can’t lockdown until there’s a vaccine but we can behave and manage the situation in an intelligent way to limit deaths.

I want to get back to normal as much as anyone else, I just think we’ve been asked to do something pretty simple that could save a lot of lives.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Just on this point, I believe they were exonerated weren't they following several enquiries?

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There was one particular graph they used to show a huge plateau of global warming since the mid fifties and took it back over 800 years showing everything level, conveniently omitting the big spike in temperatures in the dark ages (not as high but high enough) because it didn't suit their argument.
When questioned they said they left it out because it wasn't relevant to the argument. But I'm sure they found a way to wriggle out of it.
The thing is because of that it led people to question and disbelieve all the other things they did that were probably for the most part quite accurate.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I didn’t mean to come across as confrontational. I’m just a bit annoyed about a lot of the attitudes towards this still. Apologies if it came across as a pop.

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Every time you reply to my posts its a "pop"

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I agree we can’t lockdown until there’s a vaccine but we can behave and manage the situation in an intelligent way to limit deaths.

I want to get back to normal as much as anyone else, I just think we’ve been asked to do something pretty simple that could save a lot of lives.

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I don’t think we can all behave though, that’s the issue. There are some amazingly stupid people living here.

Summed up well

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a....html#comments

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I agree we can’t lockdown until there’s a vaccine but we can behave and manage the situation in an intelligent way to limit deaths.

I want to get back to normal as much as anyone else, I just think we’ve been asked to do something pretty simple that could save a lot of lives.

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I agree and most of us are doing so. I go to work every day there’s only 2 of us in the office instead of 12. 8 on furlough, the other 2 working from home.

There’s probably going to be 4 made redundant and the rest working from home for a while yet and there’s plans in place to put up Perspex between each work station and ppe when everyone’s back in the office, whenever that may be.

There’s going to be a new normal we are not going to be able to go back to the old normal for many months, possibly years, but there’s got to be some middle ground somewhere and restrictions relaxed. Just living in fear of a second spike being worst than the first, in my opinion, will do irreversible damage to the economy.

Maybe because people have been working at home they are not seeing the harsh reality of it but I’m going into a factory that’s operating at around 25% of its capacity / usual sale, this isn’t sustainable but at least we have some money coming in to go towards overheads. There’s some industries got 0% coming in with no light at the end of the tunnel. It really is frightening.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

There was one particular graph they used to show a huge plateau of global warming since the mid fifties and took it back over 800 years showing everything level, conveniently omitting the big spike in temperatures in the dark ages (not as high but high enough) because it didn't suit their argument.
When questioned they said they left it out because it wasn't relevant to the argument. But I'm sure they found a way to wriggle out of it.
The thing is because of that it led people to question and disbelieve all the other things they did that were probably for the most part quite accurate.

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I'm not sure that's really an accurate summary.

But anyway, it's a different topic altogether and there's plenty of info. available about it online for those interested. I saw a documentary about it a a few months ago which was why I initially responded. Moving on.

Couldn’t agree more JR :thumbup:

It’s a difficult situation, hopefully the new measures work as intended.

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Originally Posted by goats

I don’t think we can all behave though, that’s the issue. There are some amazingly stupid people living here.

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There are but they are the loud minority. The ones that get reported on. I think the vast majority are observing the rules.

Although, talk of lifting the lockdown the week leading up to a bank holiday weekend was utterly stupid.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

What would happen if your wish came true?

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I suspect the primary reason for deaths from a range of other diseases would rise while those attributable to COVID-19 would plummet.

I think that's what the Italian MP I posted a video of was saying about the number of deaths in his country; that they are grossly exaggerated.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

There’s going to be a new normal we are not going to be able to go back to the old normal for many months, possibly years......

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Alternatively, we may be able to go back to the old normal within a couple of months, or by the end of the year.

Nobody knows.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

There was one particular graph they used to show a huge plateau of global warming since the mid fifties and took it back over 800 years showing everything level, conveniently omitting the big spike in temperatures in the dark ages (not as high but high enough) because it didn't suit their argument.
When questioned they said they left it out because it wasn't relevant to the argument. But I'm sure they found a way to wriggle out of it.
The thing is because of that it led people to question and disbelieve all the other things they did that were probably for the most part quite accurate.

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Shouldn't the takeaway be to look into the data yourself rather than just never trust graphs again.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Every time you reply to my posts its a "pop"

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I disagree with a lot of what you post in fairness, It’s not supposed to be personal.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I don’t think the measures have been a waste of time I just think we cannot continue paying people 80% to sit on their arse doing jack shit. I hope it’s not extended to end of July and that there is a different furlough strategy from July 1st and not a free for all that it is now.

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I can't see the Government retaining this scheme for much longer.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I don’t think the measures have been a waste of time I just think we cannot continue paying people 80% to sit on their arse doing jack shit. I hope it’s not extended to end of July and that there is a different furlough strategy from July 1st and not a free for all that it is now.

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We should never have paid people 80% up to 2.5k to start with, we should have paid what it costs to live. If you lose your job in a few months time you will be on the peanuts of universal credit, it is hypocrisy and unfairness at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Shouldn't the takeaway be to look into the data yourself rather than just never trust graphs again.

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That would be too difficult wouldn't it. It is ironic that the University have been accused of "omitting data to suit their argument", but xsnaggle is also omitting facts to tailor the story to suit his own argument.

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

I can't see the Government retaining this scheme for much longer.

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It’s not sustainable. Unfortunately a lot of scrupulous business men are more savvy than those in charge of government. A Tory government being taken by surprise at the amount of greedy businesses claiming furlough is somewhat ironic.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

We should never have paid people 80% up to 2.5k to start with, we should have paid what it costs to live. If you lose your job in a few months time you will be on the peanuts of universal credit, it is hypocrisy and unfairness at its finest.

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Certainly not for 3 or 4 months. They bowed to pressure from business to extend it to 80% for June and I think they should have considered sliding it downwards from June not July.

The scheme is sustainable because the government, via the BoE, can create an infinite number of new pounds to spend on whatever it chooses. £10B per month to keep 6 million furloughed workers placated is peanuts.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Shouldn't the takeaway be to look into the data yourself rather than just never trust graphs again.

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I'm not interested enough to look into the data myself but if someone posts a graph on here obviously I see it. The first thing I tend to look at though are the parameters of the graph, as in how close or apart the lines may be and such like, and then the time line. Just my doubting mind, nothing to get het up about.
I've used graphs enough myself to prove my point to know how they can be manipulated, just like any other statistic.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Alternatively, we may be able to go back to the old normal within a couple of months, or by the end of the year.

Nobody knows.

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Absolutely, nobody knows, so I dont think we can continue to sit around waiting, there has to be some plan, which although the messages are getting a little bit confusing amongst the different UK countries it seems we are going to try and ease out of it soon.

I don’t see us going back to normal in a couple of months though. I think Summer 2020 is effectively cancelled.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

It’s not sustainable. Unfortunately a lot of scrupulous business men are more savvy than those in charge of government. A Tory government being taken by surprise at the amount of greedy businesses claiming furlough is somewhat ironic.

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:hehe:

I would be seriously concerned if I was on furlough, I think people on furlough need to be aware that some companies are operating fairly well without their efforts. The ones I talk to think it's "great", "Full wage and I'm sat in the garden" type comments. I don't want to see people struggle, but this is the same Government that used to be disparaging against people on benefits.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

It always bother me when people use a particular number of years to show and average. Being a suspicious bastard I always wonder if the didn't do longer because it would tend to disprove what they are trying to prove. Of course it is not always so. Similarly when they show graphs and the reverences are skewed to make the rise or fall seem greater or less again depending on what they are trying to prove.

It reminds me of the university who are always talking about global warming putting up information that was later proved to have been altered to rpove their argument. If a university will do it who else will? (University of East Anglia??)

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The 5 year average is a standard data point used by the ONS for comparison purposes and government policy planning.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Absolutely, nobody knows, so I dont think we can continue to sit around waiting, there has to be some plan, which although the messages are getting a little bit confusing amongst the different UK countries it seems we are going to try and ease out of it soon.

I don’t see us going back to normal in a couple of months though. I think Summer 2020 is effectively cancelled.

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It was clearly meant to be a unified plan amongst the uk nations but Drakeford and sturgeon just had to rub their bollocks in bo jos face coz he’s a Tory after all.....just marking their territory out

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Originally Posted by goats

It was clearly meant to be a unified plan amongst the uk nations but Drakeford and sturgeon just had to rub their bollocks in bo jos face coz he’s a Tory after all.....just marking their territory out

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Really? Which message do you think is clearer tonight? The "Stay Alert" one, or the "Stay Home" one?

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

Really? Which message do you think is clearer tonight? The "Stay Alert" one, or the "Stay Home" one?

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It doesn't really matter does it?

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Certainly not for 3 or 4 months. They bowed to pressure from business to extend it to 80% for June and I think they should have considered sliding it downwards from June not July.

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The 2.5k max should have been slid down not the %

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

:hehe:

I would be seriously concerned if I was on furlough, I think people on furlough need to be aware that some companies are operating fairly well without their efforts. The ones I talk to think it's "great", "Full wage and I'm sat in the garden" type comments. I don't want to see people struggle, but this is the same Government that used to be disparaging against people on benefits.

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There was full scale rows up with us. We’ve got printers on over 50k a year so they were kicking off because they didn’t want to be furloughed, so it was a case of “Why an I furloughed and he isn’t??” then at the other end of the scale you had people going ape shit because they weren’t furloughed, totally oblivious to the bigger picture.

Then one guy who was furloughed got asked to come back on after 3 weeks as the company had furloughed too many and needed some back and he was going mental as he was only get 15 a day more take home pay than if he was sitting in the house and by time take my lunch out of it, coffees. Etc.etc its not worth me working :hehe:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

Really? Which message do you think is clearer tonight? The "Stay Alert" one, or the "Stay Home" one?

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Stay home is obviously clearer but people are going to have to come out to play at some point, when they are allowed out, bless them, they will need to remember how to behave, or stay alert as it’s called. I’ve seen some insane acts of apparent social distancing in tescos recently, maybe people are so thick they need lessons, a bit like a driving test? Another dumb bitch walking through b&q coughing away down the middle aisle, clearly she wasn’t there for anything essential and she got the dogs abuse for it too. It will be 10 weeks at the end of this month, are we China?

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

:hehe:

I would be seriously concerned if I was on furlough, I think people on furlough need to be aware that some companies are operating fairly well without their efforts. The ones I talk to think it's "great", "Full wage and I'm sat in the garden" type comments. I don't want to see people struggle, but this is the same Government that used to be disparaging against people on benefits.

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And will be again in 3..2..1...

Repeat after me...there is no magic money tree...

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

It doesn't really matter does it?

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If someone is bringing up that the plan is not "unified", and claiming the Scottish and Welsh divergence is the result of spitefulness, then I think it is completely fair to ask which message is clearer. So, unfortunately, it does matter.

There is only one message, stay at home!!!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

There is only one message, stay at home!!!

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That's not what Boris Johnson was saying tonight was it?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The 2.5k max should have been slid down not the %

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2.5k max would slide with percentage

So 60% of 30k a year max

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

There was full scale rows up with us. We’ve got printers on over 50k a year so they were kicking off because they didn’t want to be furloughed, so it was a case of “Why an I furloughed and he isn’t??” then at the other end of the scale you had people going ape shit because they weren’t furloughed, totally oblivious to the bigger picture.

Then one guy who was furloughed got asked to come back on after 3 weeks as the company had furloughed too many and needed some back and he was going mental as he was only get 15 a day more take home pay than if he was sitting in the house and by time take my lunch out of it, coffees. Etc.etc its not worth me working :hehe:

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:hehe:

I've not been furloughed, but wages have been cut back as hours are cut back. Working from home, though, and I worked 40 hours last week including the Friday. If I don't get the work done (and there is the same amount of it as before), I will have to justify what I am doing in my supposed 25 hours a week. But, all things considered, this situation is more preferable than being furloughed. Hope I am wrong, but I can see a lot of these workers being made redundant when the Government money stops coming in.

The problem on this board and with certain politicians is they want it both ways. the rule in wales is Stay home, it is not open for debate.
But when it suits them they blame the Westminster government and when it suits a different argument the say we are devolved and what The Welsh government says is what matters
On the welsh news this evening you had a BBC so called expert saying The PM was wrong to say school could open from 1 June, but he never said that, its just that what he actually said didn't suit their narrative. What he actually said was that they were in talks and looking at data for schools reopening but it will not happen before 1 June. A totally different thing. The talker also chose to completely ignore the fact that as these things are devolved so what the PM said is of no consequence to what happens in wales.
Behind him came a welsh politician saying the Wales can lift the lockdown anytime and in any way they like without any reference to Westminster because the decision process was devolved and in our own hands. In his next breath he the bemoaned the fact that the lockdown had been started late blaming the Westminster government, conveniently avoiding the fact that the decision is devolved and so the welsh government could have done it anyway.

Double standards all the time! But you can't have it both ways.
It doesn't matter which side of the argument you stand on, you cannot have it this way when it suits you and another way when it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

:hehe:

I've not been furloughed, but wages have been cut back as hours are cut back. Working from home, though, and I worked 40 hours last week including the Friday. If I don't get the work done (and there is the same amount of it as before), I will have to justify what I am doing in my supposed 25 hours a week. But, all things considered, this situation is more preferable than being furloughed. Hope I am wrong, but I can see a lot of these workers being made redundant when the Government money stops coming in.

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Yep as soon as they start kicking off about going back to work when the freebie runs out

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

That's not what Boris Johnson was saying tonight was it?

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Read my post above. The welsh government keeps telling us what he says on this matter has nothing to do with Wales. But they'll still blame him when it fcuks up.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

The problem on this board and with certain politicians is they want it both ways. the rule in wales is Stay home, it is not open for debate.
But when it suits them they blame the Westminster government and when i wet suits a different argument the say we are devolved and what The Welsh government says is what matters
On the welsh news this evening you had a BBC so called expert saying The PM was wrong to say school could open from 1 June, but he never said that, its just that what he actually said didn't suit their narrative. What he actually said was that they were in talks and looking at data for schools reopening but it will not happen before 1 June. A totally different thing. The talker also chose to completely ignore the fact that as these things are devolved so what the PM said is of no consequence to what happens in wales.
Behind him came a welsh politician saying the Wales can lift the lockdown anytime and in any way they like without any reference to Westminster because the decision process was devolved and in our own hands. In his next breath he the bemoaned the fact that the lockdown had been started late blaming the Westminster government, conveniently avoiding the fact that the decision is devolved and so the welsh government could have done it anyway.

Double standards all the time! But you can't have it both ways.
It doesn't matter which side of the argument you stand on, you cannot have it this way when it suits you and another way when it doesn't.

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They all wanted to go and watch wales v Scotland remember, when forced to cancel they then threw the toys out the pram and blamed Westminster, comedy gold......

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

:hehe:

I would be seriously concerned if I was on furlough, I think people on furlough need to be aware that some companies are operating fairly well without their efforts. The ones I talk to think it's "great", "Full wage and I'm sat in the garden" type comments. I don't want to see people struggle, but this is the same Government that used to be disparaging against people on benefits.

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Furlough is one step from redundancy, I’m surprised people can’t see that.