Churchill

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

When Churchill took over Chamberlain and Halifax were already in touch with The Italian Government asking if Mussolini could broker a face saving deal with Adolf.
It was only the fact that at that moment the Italians invaded Abyssinia that stopped them doing it.

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Dear God.

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Originally Posted by Sparticus_Mills

Italy invaded Abyssinia in 1935, not 1940. Chamberlain had nothing to do with putting out feelers to the Italians, that was all Halifax's work, Chamberlain supported Churchill, as a result, Halifax was persuaded not to resign, and all thoughts of a peace agreement were shelved.

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Yep, Chamberlain was still leader of the Conservatives, despite not being PM. Churchill feared that he would be outvoted, but managed to get Chamberlain's support. Quite a critical moment.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Why did the tories try to stop it happening then ?

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You will note I said a National Health Service not the

The Conservatives NHS would probably been a different beast to anyone to Nye Bevans creation.

Their manifesto said

"The health services of the country will be made available to all citizens. Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them. We propose to create a comprehensive health service covering the whole range of medical treatment from the general practitioner to the specialist, and from the hospital to convalescence and rehabilitation"

A significant point to note of course is that free at the point of use is missing from that.

The Tory NHS from what I have read would have built on the voluntary hospitals which were widespread but would have had more control at a regional level. It would have been more pluralist than State run.

Yes they voted against a lot of Bevans proposal but some of it was because the system was different to the one they had proposed.

Some was because from what I have ( and I will need to check it further) was because the Tories felt that as an opposition their job was to oppose.

There will be those as well who didn't want a National Health System


Whatever, I feel some sort of National system was inevitable

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But Russian only survived long enough to fight back because we and the USA supplied them with tanks guns aeroplanes and other equipment without which they wouldn't have been able to hold the German army back long enough for General winter to get involved. Hundreds of british sailors died on the Murmansk convoys so Russia could "win" the war.

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And they were very brave sailors

How many Russian men and women died fighting and exhausting the German forces on the eastern front so the allied forces could move in from the west ?

Stalingrad was the key to hitler being defeated and it was Russian men and women who died in their hundreds of thousands

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

You will note I said a National Health Service not the

The Conservatives NHS would probably been a different beast to anyone to Nye Bevans creation.

Their manifesto said

"The health services of the country will be made available to all citizens. Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them. We propose to create a comprehensive health service covering the whole range of medical treatment from the general practitioner to the specialist, and from the hospital to convalescence and rehabilitation"

A significant point to note of course is that free at the point of use is missing from that.

The Tory NHS from what I have read would have built on the voluntary hospitals which were widespread but would have had more control at a regional level. It would have been more pluralist than State run.

Yes they voted against a lot of Bevans proposal but some of it was because the system was different to the one they had proposed.

Some was because from what I have ( and I will need to check it further) was because the Tories felt that as an opposition their job was to oppose.

There will be those as well who didn't want a National Health System


Whatever, I feel some sort of National system was inevitable

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Their manifesto could say whatever it wanted but I wouldn't believe a tory manifesto then as I don't now

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But Russian only survived long enough to fight back because we and the USA supplied them with tanks guns aeroplanes and other equipment without which they wouldn't have been able to hold the German army back long enough for General winter to get involved. Hundreds of british sailors died on the Murmansk convoys so Russia could "win" the war.

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Snaggs......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x2ovlPr2IE

F

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Originally Posted by goats

Exactly this, crucial decisions needed to be made under massive pressure in a losing position for many years....people seem to forget this, like they want to try and forget our history. It appears doing anything that was deemed ok or normal for that time is now abhorrent and wiped clean if possible....whatever next hey....about time a Great Britain was renamed? I mean, we aren’t really that great are we?

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‘Great’ is nothing to do with ‘the best’ or any description similar, it, perhaps, should really be ‘Greater’, it’s just an adjective to differentiate the larger of the British Isles to the others.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

F

‘Great’ is nothing to do with ‘the best’ or any description similar, it, perhaps, should really be ‘Greater’, it’s just an adjective to differentiate the larger of the British Isles to the others.

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You're correct-Like 'Greater London' Includes such delights as Sutton, Croydon and Bexleyheath, Greater Britain included Asia, Africa, America and Australia, also parts of the Middle East, used as a sort of service station on our way back from robbing India. Brings a tear to my eye..

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

😁😁

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...bertie bertie bertie....

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Please, the didn't 'turf him and his party out'. It was a coalition government that had been running the country during the war, with leading figures from all parties in the war cabinet.
When the election was held Labour had the best ideas and the best election plan and won, and the deserved to.

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Right, apologies for that, as I said, neither Churchill or WW2 are subjects I have much knowledge of or interest in. However, a couple of things occur to me, why has Churchill come to be seen as "the man who won us the War" (in as much as one person was responsible for doing that) when the reality appears to be different to that and also I don't see what is wrong with saying he and his party were turfed out of Government in 1945 when he clearly was and the make up of the Commons whereby the Conservatives had a majority of MPs during the war years was dramatically altered to that party's cost.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Could have waited until they were in German hand then bomb them

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If we'd done that, wouldnt they have fired back?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Right, apologies for that, as I said, neither Churchill or WW2 are subjects I have much knowledge of or interest in. However, a couple of things occur to me, why has Churchill come to be seen as "the man who won us the War" (in as much as one person was responsible for doing that) when the reality appears to be different to that and also I don't see what is wrong with saying he and his party were turfed out of Government in 1945 when he clearly was and the make up of the Commons whereby the Conservatives had a majority of MPs during the war years was dramatically altered to that party's cost.

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His speech "We shall fight on the beaches" was not well received in Parliament. It was greeted with silence. It was also not particularly well delivered (comment by Tory MP I heard in a radio interview in the early 90s). Churchill later re-recorded his war speeches after the War in the 1950s, and they are the ones that are often played.

He also edited his speech to remove criticism of the neutral Americans, instead promising that the "Empire" would continue the fight; something that Roosevelt insisted on. Churchill knew it was pretty dire when he delivered that speech in 1940, and far from being the man to win the war, he was the man who realised the war was pretty much lost unless there was involvement from the Americans.

Wondering what the criteria is for threads getting moved to politics. This is fairly political, but remains here, yet comments about the increase in anti-immigration rhetoric whenever the Conservatives are in trouble gets moved to the Politics thread.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I'm no fan of the chinese government, although they've taken more people out of extreme poverty than any other government on earth with state funded projects, better health care, more support for rural areas and huge investment in education.

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Ironically they were saying the same thing about Hitler's economic miracle in the 1930's

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

And they were very brave sailors

How many Russian men and women died fighting and exhausting the German forces on the eastern front so the allied forces could move in from the west ?

Stalingrad was the key to hitler being defeated and it was Russian men and women who died in their hundreds of thousands

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Absolutely. However Hitler only ever wanted to expand eastward -he had a pathological hatred for the Eastern European States and Russia. It was when France, then the UK declared war on Germany that the war moved westward..

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But Russian only survived long enough to fight back because we and the USA supplied them with tanks guns aeroplanes and other equipment without which they wouldn't have been able to hold the German army back long enough for General winter to get involved. Hundreds of british sailors died on the Murmansk convoys so Russia could "win" the war.

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The things you never hear about. Although I have the book Stalingrad, it’s my next read.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

And they were very brave sailors

How many Russian men and women died fighting and exhausting the German forces on the eastern front so the allied forces could move in from the west ?

Stalingrad was the key to hitler being defeated and it was Russian men and women who died in their hundreds of thousands

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20 million Russians wasn’t it? Basically doing anything to stop the German wave from taking the city

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Absolutely. However Hitler only ever wanted to expand eastward -he had a pathological hatred for the Eastern European States and Russia. It was when France, then the UK declared war on Germany that the war moved westward..

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Hitler occupied the demilitarised Rhineland in 1936 violating the Treaty of Versailles,

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Absolutely. However Hitler only ever wanted to expand eastward -he had a pathological hatred for the Eastern European States and Russia. It was when France, then the UK declared war on Germany that the war moved westward..

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But they didn't improvise a plan on the hop to go west once war was suddenly declared. He wanted expansion in all directions on the continent. They knew and expected the declaration.

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Originally Posted by goats

The things you never hear about. Although I have the book Stalingrad, it’s my next read.

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is that the Antony beaver book ?

Read that alongside enemy at the gates and have some sleeping pills ready , its very graphic

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Originally Posted by goats

20 million Russians wasn’t it? Basically doing anything to stop the German wave from taking the city

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They were and clearly still are , very tough people

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Absolutely. However Hitler only ever wanted to expand eastward -he had a pathological hatred for the Eastern European States and Russia. It was when France, then the UK declared war on Germany that the war moved westward..

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he drummed it into the german public that the Russian people were dirty pigs

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

he drummed it into the german public that the Russian people were dirty pigs

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20 million chinese died as a consequence of the World War 2 as well. The russians were in no position not to survive, if they didn't fight then Stalin would take care of business.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Ironically they were saying the same thing about Hitler's economic miracle in the 1930's

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that made me chuckle , Chinese soldier's are also crap at tank driving ,they keep moving folk down particularly students

https://www.gazetadopovo.com.br/wiseup-news/is-china-nice-five-atrocities-committed-by-the-communist-country/

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

is that the Antony beaver book ?

Read that alongside enemy at the gates and have some sleeping pills ready , its very graphic

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Yeah....I bought it about 2 years ago now got to start it soon

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Snaggs......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x2ovlPr2IE

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Brilliant!
:hehe:


I wish he could post in this thread and set a few facts straight.

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Originally Posted by goats

Yeah....I bought it about 2 years ago now got to start it soon

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Great book , heavy read

Enemy At The Gates is very dark and graphic

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

20 million chinese died as a consequence of the World War 2 as well. The russians were in no position not to survive, if they didn't fight then Stalin would take care of business.

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Who were the Chinese fighting? The Japs was it? I find WW2 stories interesting, I guess we always get to hear about the bigger events like pearl harbour and Dunkirk, Midway, Stalingrad etc...So many battles went on we dont get to hear so much of.

To know what the Royal Navy did you should read "Engage the Enemy more closely"
It tells the tale of every RN ship from Destroyer upwards that was involved in anything. And all the feck-ups by the Admiralty, Churchill and the Admirals. True good read if you are interested in that period.
Apparently "Engage the enemy more closely" was the last signal ordered by Nelson at Trafalgar before he died. And it was the first one sent by Churchill at the beginning of WW2 when he was 1st Sea Lord. Dunno the proof of that but I read it somewhere that sounded plausible, and apparently that is why the book is so named.

A good read. (And it covers the sinking of the french fleet at Oran!)

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

What coul he have done?????

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No answer came the stern reply!

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Originally Posted by goats

Who were the Chinese fighting? The Japs was it? I find WW2 stories interesting, I guess we always get to hear about the bigger events like pearl harbour and Dunkirk, Midway, Stalingrad etc...So many battles went on we dont get to hear so much of.

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Japan invaded China via Manchuria in 1931 chasing raw materials for its growing industries. By 1937 Japan controlled large sections of China, and accusations of war crimes against the Chinese became commonplace.
After Germany surrendered in 1945 Stalin invaded Manchuria and sent the Japanese packing.

Little is known about the tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers taken prisoner by the Russians because nothing was ever heard about them afterwards except for unproven rumours about them being used as forced labour rebuilding areas destroyed n the war. None of them were ever returned to Japan. I head about this when I was working in Kazakhstan.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

No answer came the stern reply!

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The same as Churchills response nothing :thumbup:

Worth a read it offers a balance , to a complex clever man :

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churchill-101/

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Worth a read it offers a balance , to a complex clever man :

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churchill-101/

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didn't seem very balanced to me

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Worth a read it offers a balance , to a complex clever man :

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churchill-101/

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So Churchill was a living saint and even more of a hero than Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan?

Thanks for that! :hehe:

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Originally Posted by jeepster

The same as Churchills response nothing :thumbup:

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So you have no idea what he could have about extermination camps deep in enemy territory during a war but still blame him for not doing anything

In a board that often has bloody stupid comments that ranks with the best of 'em

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

So you have no idea what he could have about extermination camps deep in enemy territory during a war but still blame him for not doing anything

In a board that often has bloody stupid comments that ranks with the best of 'em

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This is from memory now, but in addition I think the information came via enigma intercepts so they couldn't afford to act on these for fear of letting the Germans known it had been cracked.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Worth a read it offers a balance , to a complex clever man :

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churchill-101/

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The prevalence of free market economics ?

The author says that's a good thing

So he's clearly a right wing libertarian

So its a not a very balanced view at all

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Originally Posted by lardy

This is from memory now, but in addition I think the information came via enigma intercepts so they couldn't afford to act on these for fear of letting the Germans known it had been cracked.

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That rings a bell now. I'm sure I have seen that before.

I think he's a very nice little dog, I had no idea about all this other stuff