-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
I think this is missing the point tbh. It does happen with a female politician’s appearance much more than with men.
It’s quite often when Nicola Surgeon is brought up on here her appearance gets mentioned in a negative way. Doesn’t seem to happen half as much with male politicians.
not just politicians, women are routinely judged for their appearance, where a man isn't.
I have noticed some small changes though - over the past few years on this board of there is a thread on a female sportsperson it is now probably about their sporting (or commentating) prowess, whereas only few years ago it would have been dominated by how attractive they were.
Even in the industry I work in, the men are the scruffiest bunch of kents you can imagine, whereas if a woman started to come to work as scruffily I think it would certainly alter people's perception of them.
A good example is GMTV (is it still called that?) 2 main presenters Piers Morgan (before he stropped off) and Susannah Reid - both good at what they do. Both trained journalists, yet the male looks like a ham that has been beat into a vaguely human shape with a trowel, and the female is genuinely beautiful. If Susannah Reid had Piers Morgan's face we would never have heard of her.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Imagine Nicola Sturgeon having an affair, during which her lover received a large amount of taxpayers' money. The media would maintain a discreet silence about that, wouldn't they?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Repeatedly of late, we’ve seen cases where at the very least the perception exists that there are inadequate investigative and enforcement mechanisms around standards in public life and holding politicians to account.
What mechanisms do exist have in some cases been diminished. So for example, the Prime Minister’s independent adviser on the ministerial standards Sir Alex Allen resigns, after the PM chose to ignore his finding that the Home Sec in beach of the code- and he has not been replaced
As I’ve pointed out many times, it’s the Prime Minister’s job to adjudicate the code. He’s judge, jury and executioner (especially in the absence of an independent adviser on ministerial standards). Given it’s his government, the potential conflict of interest is clear.
NB The Cameron case is not purely a question of the ministerial code as it relates to activity after he left office (though obviously some of it is about access he granted while he was prime minister). But again, clear extra-Whitehall enforcement mechanisms aren’t there.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/st...83721127788549
Not going to suggest it's a problem limited to Westminster but this aint an example of a strong democracy.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.
they have also said in the past that they would leave Scotland AND the UK. in reality it is just sabre rattling. I can't see them actually leaving Scotland
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.
Declaring independence is one thing but achieving it and it being internationally recognised is something else. I have often thought about declaring my postage stamp of a property on Taunton as an independent nation but in the meantime I will enjoy my long-standing Lordship of Sealand.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Imagine Nicola Sturgeon having an affair, during which her lover received a large amount of taxpayers' money. The media would maintain a discreet silence about that, wouldn't they?
That takes some imagining !
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
That takes some imagining !
Boris is hardly a Hollywood hunk himself.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
The Scots are already receiving a disproportionate amount of money due to the Barnet formula and excessive COVID amounts being diverted to fund other things so if they had independence that would mean more for the rest of us. Of course it's not all about money but the anti UK Scots might well regret leaving the UK if it ever happens.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ngland-thanks/
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vindec
The Scots are already receiving a disproportionate amount of money due to the Barnet formula and excessive COVID amounts being diverted to fund other things so if they had independence that would mean more for the rest of us. Of course it's not all about money but the anti UK Scots might well regret leaving the UK if it ever happens.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ngland-thanks/
Ireland in the 1920s were in a far worse economic position compared with the rest of the UK and they have flourished a lot more than if they were still i the union, I don't think anyone in the republic regrets leaving.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
So a contribution from someone who would have a vote...
Brexit has been a gamechanger. We are told that the only way to stay in the EU was to say no to independence. Well that worked out well, didn't it. We feel shafted.
What is also changes, to a degree, the economic argument. If Scotland were in the EU as an independent country, we would be the natural home for Financial Services and Logistics companies that are based in England but need an EU base - English speaking, good schools, same time zone - it's a no brainer. I expect that we would still lose out financially, but this narrows the gap.
What has also changed is the perception of England - right wing and narrow minded, whereas Scotland sees itself as Social Democrat and open to the world. We are on different paths, and this has become increasingly apparent since the last independence referendum.
And finally, you cannot begin to imagine just how much Boris Johnson is loathed up here.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
not just politicians, women are routinely judged for their appearance, where a man isn't.
I have noticed some small changes though - over the past few years on this board of there is a thread on a female sportsperson it is now probably about their sporting (or commentating) prowess, whereas only few years ago it would have been dominated by how attractive they were.
Even in the industry I work in, the men are the scruffiest bunch of kents you can imagine, whereas if a woman started to come to work as scruffily I think it would certainly alter people's perception of them.
A good example is GMTV (is it still called that?) 2 main presenters Piers Morgan (before he stropped off) and Susannah Reid - both good at what they do. Both trained journalists, yet the male looks like a ham that has been beat into a vaguely human shape with a trowel, and the female is genuinely beautiful. If Susannah Reid had Piers Morgan's face we would never have heard of her.
That's just as much as a female issue as a male one.
Women judge women so much
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?
Brexit is nothing like a country becoming independent.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
That's just as much as a female issue as a male one.
Women judge women so much
Oh absolutely, because they're also brought up in a society where they are taught women are valued for their appearance. It starts at a very young age . I think things are slowly changing though, and the younger generatons seem t have a much better awareness of it
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
I guess Texas was independent for a short while.
and you could say that the holy Roman empire collapsed into many small states, which eventually some of remerged into Germany but it's not a very good example.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?
You do you think there is a similarity between the two?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I guess Texas was independent for a short while.
and you could say that the holy Roman empire collapsed into many small states, which eventually some of remerged into Germany but it's not a very good example.
Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.
Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.
Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.
there doesn't seem to be a really clean cut example. perhaps when an independent Scotland rejoins the EU?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Brexit is nothing like a country becoming independent.
There's some major similarities though.
Each 'independence' is different. Is a Catalonia independence the same as a Scottish one? What about Yugoslavia.
Brexit has obvious drawbacks and also massive potential upsides. Scottish independence has obvious drawbacks again some similar upside that may or may not be realised.
To say they are entirely different is for me total rubbish. They both share the same areas of concern but with completely different outcomes and viewpoints.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
There's some major similarities though.
Each 'independence' is different. Is a Catalonia independence the same as a Scottish one? What about Yugoslavia.
Brexit has obvious drawbacks and also massive potential upsides. Scottish independence has obvious drawbacks again some similar upside that may or may not be realised.
To say they are entirely different is for me total rubbish. They both share the same areas of concern but with completely different outcomes and viewpoints.
The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.
Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.
Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.
Montenegro parting from the more dominant Serbia in the former political entity know as the 'State Union of Serbia and Montenegro' was perhaps very slightly akin to the possible Scottish scenario.
And perhaps Kosovo ceding from Serbia as well.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Hopefully I live long enough to see an independent Scotland, reunified Ireland and an independent Wales.
F*ck and I mean F*ck the corrupt UK system with it's ludicrous first past the post, House of Lords, veneration and subsidy of the ludicrous veneration of the Royal Family.
The past year has made me join up to YesCymru. I'd love to see people in this country have some belief in ourselves that we could make a success like other small countries.
It's either independence for me or once I've sold house in a few months off to Ireland. I hate the way this government which will be in for a long time will make us nothing more than a county of England.
Still. as long as we beat the English we dont care eh.....
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
It would be interesting to see how many people in England and Wales would migrate north of the border if Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CardiffIrish2
Hopefully I live long enough to see an independent Scotland, reunified Ireland and an independent Wales.
F*ck and I mean F*ck the corrupt UK system with it's ludicrous first past the post, House of Lords, veneration and subsidy of the ludicrous veneration of the Royal Family.
The past year has made me join up to YesCymru. I'd love to see people in this country have some belief in ourselves that we could make a success like other small countries.
It's either independence for me or once I've sold house in a few months off to Ireland. I hate the way this government which will be in for a long time will make us nothing more than a county of England.
Still. as long as we beat the English we dont care eh.....
If I saw independence as a benefit i'd be all over it, but I don't see anything apart from tourism that companies would choose to reside in Wales over England for.
I do feel Wales would be squeezed out whereas as the UK we're just about big enough.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.
Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.
Scotland are probably one of the only countries to vote against independence.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
Scotland are probably one of the only countries to vote against independence.
The majority vote YES according to this
https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...o-independence
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.
Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.
How would Scottish independence lead to a new country? It’s already a country in it’s own right?
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
How would Scottish independence lead to a new country? It’s already a country in it’s own right?
If that's a serious question - because Scotland currently isn't a sovereign nation.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
If that's a serious question - because Scotland currently isn't a sovereign nation.
Obviously it isn’t. It’s a constituent country, but still a country. You make it sound as though a mysterious new bit of land is gonna appear out of the sea, and become known as Scotland. 😀
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
Obviously it isn’t. It’s a constituent country, but still a country. You make it sound as though a mysterious new bit of land is gonna appear out of the sea, and become known as Scotland.
That's ridiculously pedantic. Everyone understands what it means.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
The Dominion of newfoundland asked London to be governed as a colony
Anguilla seceded from St Kitts and Nevis and asked London to govern it directly
Gibraltar and the Bahamas have both rejected independence in referenda
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
That's ridiculously pedantic. Everyone understands what it means.
Ridiculously pedantic or not, you should have said independence leads to new sovereign states, not new countries. Just trying to keep you right Lardy. You can thank me another time 👍
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
If I saw independence as a benefit i'd be all over it, but I don't see anything apart from tourism that companies would choose to reside in Wales over England for.
I do feel Wales would be squeezed out whereas as the UK we're just about big enough.
While there are some examples of it not working, people tend to go where the investment and jobs are. Companies will want to go where the interest is.
What investment is coming into Wales to create jobs and interest? There is no cap on the budget for crossrail or HS2 but it's been very easy to find reason why investment into Wales isn't financially worthwhile...except if it also benefits Bristol.
Wales can grow up but relying on Westminster, especially one acting as it has over past 10 years, isn't it....but that doesn't necessarily mean independence.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.
And perhaps Inverness .
They must be bonkers , they have huge subsidises from Westminster which props up their popular social programs .
Pity they couldn't temporarily have thier funding turned off and let them trial a financial independence period.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moodybluebird
Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.
I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?
All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.
Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.
I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?
All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.
Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.
I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
Going off at a tangent, Ireland doesn't chart its own waters. That task is still carried out by the UK government, which also owns most of the IP therein.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?
All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.
Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.
I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?
I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.
Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.
-
Re: Scottish Independence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?
All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.
Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.
I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
It amazes me how many people don't understand this.