Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

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Originally Posted by Rjk

million not k
I know people who did, they were furious that this money that we had "wasted" on Europe and we could get it back to spend on the NHS.

They couldn't have said it any more clearly, that's what they were going to do.
Except it was all lies.

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Yes Million, i was replying elsewhere and had K on my mind

I am sure some did get sucked into the Bus Lie, though both campaigns were hardly that truthful

I stand by the comment that it got people think about the money we sent to the EU and where it could be spent instead, so the slogan / bus worked

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Originally Posted by Feedback

:hehe:


you need millions of votes to win an election, not hundreds of thousands. What good is it appealing to the rank and file if you can't appeal to the masses.

it is up to the Labour party to step up to the plate. At the present time, Labour are rather bereft of ideas

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It helps to have an active and enthusiastic membership to campaign (phones, leaflets, doorstep, social media) in an election. It is not a good idea to attack and demoralise those members before an election so that a large proportion of them do not get involved. The hundreds of thousands speak to the millions. That's the way it works!

You are right - Labour is bereft of ideas. It wasn't a few years ago, and their ideas were popular. But what does Labour stand for under Starmer? Labour's campaign was ideas free. It had no identity. There was a thin pick and mix of national and local policies that totally failed to add up to a vision for the country or the local area.

The Anyone But Corbyn clique who now run the Labour Party really do need to 'step up to the plate'. Not for their own sakes, but for the millions who will pay the price for the Tory free run.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

Yes Million, i was replying elsewhere and had K on my mind

I am sure some did get sucked into the Bus Lie, though both campaigns were hardly that truthful

I stand by the comment that it got people think about the money we sent to the EU and where it could be spent instead, so the slogan / bus worked

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it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

the right wing of the tory party stoked up the inherent racism and xenophobia of the white working class

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The white working classes aren't inherently racist. Do your research.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?

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I am sure you could google " Brexit Remain Lies " then you can see them all

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Originally Posted by blue matt

I am sure you could google " Brexit Remain Lies " then you can see them all

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You can't think of any then?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The white working classes aren't inherently racist. Do your research.

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Huge support for far right parties in Oldham, Burnley , Bradford , Rochdale and massive change in previous Labour voting areas to conservative or further right

English Defence League , white , working class football fans

People arrested for racially aggravated public order offences don't tend to come from cyncoed and rhiwbina

Bernard Manning

Roy Chubby Brown

The black guy at work , we call him chalkie , its only a joke

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?

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There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.

- Lower taxes
- strong stance against illegal immigration
- Less regulation for the self employed
- more business friendly
- Politics of aspiration
- Competition in education
- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech


I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.

- Lower taxes
- strong stance against illegal immigration
- Less regulation for the self employed
- more business friendly
- Politics of aspiration
- Competition in education
- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech


I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.

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this strong stance against immigration bought them a lot of votes

But its as high as ever , so somebody's talking shit

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

you wouldn't believe that if you were one of those faithful to Abbott and her associates. She says it is the departure from Corbyn policies that caused it.

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Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Left wing politics is certainly not dead.
Just fractured
This result cannot be seen as a rejecton of left wing policies, as which of those has Starmer been pushing recently?

The main political issues I think are still Brexit and the pandemic.

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Polls have also shown that left wing policies such as nationalisation are consistently popular across the UK, so the idea that left wing politics is dead is just clear nonsense. It would also ignore the 12.8m people who voted for Labour in 2017 and the 10.2m who voted in 2019 (more than voted for them in 2005, 2010 and 2015)

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Originally Posted by Rjk

it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?

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How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

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I can state categorically that it was a lie because we've never paid the EU £350 million a week.
that figure doesn't include the "rebate" which was taken off before we paid it.
without that I think it was at most 250 million.


aside from that,
it also doesn't include the EU funds being spent in the UK, which brings the net spend down to I think just over 150.

and it also doesn't include the impact on the economy of leaving the EU, which is very likely to have a much bigger effect on the public piece than the cost of membership

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Er, that's why I said "with our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins". Also, with only ten million out of forty seven million eligible votes, Labour would have loved to have got more than thirty per cent of it but it was the what's in it for me party who had "almost 70 per cent" not voting for them.

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Dont get your argument. Conservatives got over 42% of vote in 2019, so 58% didn’t vote for them. Labour got over 32% of vote, so 68% didn't vote for them. What does that prove, apart from more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for Conservatives.

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Originally Posted by City123

Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.

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I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide

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Originally Posted by City123

Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.

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They were protected in 2019 by massive Brexit Party vote which has now gone to Tories. Corbyn did extremely well in 2017 and his polices were liked in 2019 but his leadership and Labour party weren't.

In 2021, areas with higher number of graduates have voted Labour in England (slightly) but areas where there are fewer have voted Tories.

What should be troubling is that areas like Hartlepool were targeted for biggest cuts during austerity years because they would always vote labour but now Tories are spending money they're picking up these deprived areas. How many other areas punished under Tories are now rewarding then with votes?

If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide

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I don't like to agree but it is indeed political suicide

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Originally Posted by dml1954

If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.

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No one is saying current Labour is centre right. They're saying they're not centre-left/left enough.

Their polices (Brexit aside) weren't soundly beaten in 2019 and many live on as Tories have drifted left economically (and right authoritarian culturally). Tories won't be able to implement them properly though and no doubt the policies get blamed rather than Tories.

Labour need to be a broad church to win (and need to attract more voters than ever due to boundary changes, removal of cap on election spending and inherent bias in FPtP voting system) which means being more centre and more left. And more United behind that.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

The increased profile of the Welsh Parliament since the Pandemic has been a bit of a godsend to Conservative voters because they can forget about the fact that Wales has a very limited kind of self Government with much of it dependant on how much Westminster allocates them and just start blaming Welsh Labour for everything. If we had the degree of independence you make it sound as if we had, there would be no point in there being a Plaid Cymru party.

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the old chestnut that Wales is doing poorly because we aren't properly funded. We receive £15bn per annum in public expenditure than we generate in taxes. If Wales became independent, we'd be an economic basket case. It is all too easy for Welsh Labour to blame the lack of funding, but the Welsh government have considerably more power than any English region and receives considerably more funding per capita yet all English regions bar one have improved their lot compared to Wales in the lifetime of the Senedd. That tells me the Senedd and Welsh Labour is ineffectual and it is nothing to do with lack of funding. If it was down to funding, then the English regions would also struggle, but they have not.

Having the Tories in Westminster is an easy way out for Welsh Labour, as they don't have to be held accountable for their shambolic performance and can simply blame the lack of funding.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

It helps to have an active and enthusiastic membership to campaign (phones, leaflets, doorstep, social media) in an election. It is not a good idea to attack and demoralise those members before an election so that a large proportion of them do not get involved. The hundreds of thousands speak to the millions. That's the way it works!

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that's fair enough, but if you cannot resonate with the electorate, then it really does mean nothing

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Originally Posted by jon1959

You are right - Labour is bereft of ideas. It wasn't a few years ago, and their ideas were popular. But what does Labour stand for under Starmer? Labour's campaign was ideas free. It had no identity. There was a thin pick and mix of national and local policies that totally failed to add up to a vision for the country or the local area.

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That's left wing politics in general though. The world has moved on from the 1970s. Tony blair understood this and modernised the labour movement. Result = outstanding success.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The Anyone But Corbyn clique who now run the Labour Party really do need to 'step up to the plate'. Not for their own sakes, but for the millions who will pay the price for the Tory free run.

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you say this as if its a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again

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The bus said £350m a week not £350m a year.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.
- Lower taxes

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No. since 2010 the Tory government has collected more in taxes as a percentage of GDP than any other before it. It really is a myth that the Tories are the party of low taxes. Don't be fooled by headline rates.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- strong stance against illegal immigration

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marvellous, lets ignore the fact immigration is actually good for the UK

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- Less regulation for the self employed

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perhaps you can have a word with the DWP and HMRC as they haven't read the memo. There is more bureaucracy for the self-employed than ever before.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- more business friendly

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possibly. The jury is out

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- Politics of aspiration

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agreed

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- Competition in education

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whilst this is a good thing, i can't see why we cannot fund education so everyone has an Eton/Harrow type of education paid for by the state.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech

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perception doesn't mean fact. This Tory government have clamped down on a lot of our digital freedoms

I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Huge support for far right parties in Oldham, Burnley , Bradford , Rochdale and massive change in previous Labour voting areas to conservative or further right

English Defence League , white , working class football fans

People arrested for racially aggravated public order offences don't tend to come from cyncoed and rhiwbina

Bernard Manning

Roy Chubby Brown

The black guy at work , we call him chalkie , its only a joke

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Do some reading, take a look who has defeated fascism throughout the centuries, then ask yourself why racism and fascism rises in popularity amongst white, disengaged working class people.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Dont get your argument. Conservatives got over 42% of vote in 2019, so 58% didn’t vote for them. Labour got over 32% of vote, so 68% didn't vote for them. What does that prove, apart from more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for Conservatives.

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I was talking about the eligible vote (including people who didn't vote). Things like the votes to impeach Trump needed a two thirds majority (66 per cent) to be carry and yet both Conservative and Labour Governments have been given what is virtually absolute power when less than one third of the eligible voters have backed them.

We're 11 years into a Tory government but somehow it's seen as completely separate to what came before (spoiler alert: in some ways it is and in some big ways it's not) whereas Labour is seen as either extension of Blair by those who don't like Blair or an extension of Corbyn by those who don't like Corbyn.

That's a massive issue for Labour and a massive win for Tories.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

No. since 2010 the Tory government has collected more in taxes as a percentage of GDP than any other before it. It really is a myth that the Tories are the party of low taxes. Don't be fooled by headline rates.


marvellous, lets ignore the fact immigration is actually good for the UK

perhaps you can have a word with the DWP and HMRC as they haven't read the memo. There is more bureaucracy for the self-employed than ever before.

possibly. The jury is out


agreed


whilst this is a good thing, i can't see why we cannot fund education so everyone has an Eton/Harrow type of education paid for by the state.


perception doesn't mean fact. This Tory government have clamped down on a lot of our digital freedoms

I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.

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[/QUOTE]

I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart :hehe:
to be fair I could have done that too
and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Do some reading, take a look who has defeated fascism throughout the centuries, then ask yourself why racism and fascism rises in popularity amongst white, disengaged working class people.

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Never mind the history books and stories of the battle of cable street

Who gave the English defence league a kicking in Cardiff?

It was middle class students with a helping hand from a few hundred docks lads

I didn't see mobs of white working class people out that day from the valleys and estates of Cardiff to tackle the fascists

You are living in the clouds and in a utopia

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Originally Posted by chris lee

I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart :hehe:
to be fair I could have done that too
and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.

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I agree.

you can have conservative values and vote for the Tories, it does not make you a bad person, you simply believe the best way for the nation to succeed overall is smaller government and more personal responsibility. Those who support Labour believe in a larger government and more collective responsibility. there is no right or wrong way, and both approaches have their merits and drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart :hehe:
to be fair I could have done that too
and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.

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What part of Boris Johnson's government is small or fiscally responsible? In past couple of months they've talked about interfering into private institutions like football clubs and pubs as well as public funded ones like National Trust and Channel 4 and they literally won an election on reducing size of the economy. This is not a (small c) conservative government and proper conservative voters are being put off and replaced by new voters.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Never mind the history books and stories of the battle of cable street

Who gave the English defence league a kicking in Cardiff?

It was middle class students with a helping hand from a few hundred docks lads

I didn't see mobs of white working class people out that day from the valleys and estates of Cardiff to tackle the fascists

You are living in the clouds and in a utopia

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Sludge in Anecdotes shocker! Don't suppose I can argue with that when every inch of history tells us that the workers of the world have defeated Fascism time after time. You really need to think before you answer.

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Originally Posted by surge

We're 11 years into a Tory government but somehow it's seen as completely separate to what came before (spoiler alert: in some ways it is and in some big ways it's not) whereas Labour is seen as either extension of Blair by those who don't like Blair or an extension of Corbyn by those who don't like Corbyn.

That's a massive issue for Labour and a massive win for Tories.

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I can't say whether this is definitely true or not, but I would say that it's believable - on the radio this morning someone was saying that they showed a sample of voters some of the Labour parties policies at the last election and they got an almost unanimously positive response, but that changed drastically when it was revealed Corbyn's Labour party that was behind the proposals.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

....................... on the radio this morning someone was saying that they showed a sample of voters some of the Labour parties policies at the last election and they got an almost unanimously positive response

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Probably true. But the problem is that nobody believed Labour could deliver them.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think I need to nail this into your head

I want a moderate , left of centre alternative to the tories

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Tony Blair type politics then .

Labour made a huge error rejecting all his policies and changes

They should have gone for David Miliband and they'd be in a better place now , probably still in Europe as he would have shown more appetite for the remain campaign than Corbyn , and beat Cameron and May

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Originally Posted by lardy

The bus said £350m a week not £350m a year.

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Well spotted :hehe:

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Tony Blair type politics then .

Labour made a huge error rejecting all his policies and changes

They should have gone for David Miliband and they'd be in a better place now , probably still in Europe as he would have shown more appetite for the remain campaign than Corbyn , and beat Cameron and May

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Probably right there, it sucks there’s such a limited choice. We should have more than two parties to choose from and certain policy should be set in stone so not messed with every 4 years etc...health, schools etc..

I voted for Starmer in the leadership election, but I wish i hadn't now. Labour have to aim at Boris as PM , Rees-Mogg, Patel and the others and still cock it up. But I will stay loyal to my beliefs.

The Tories introduced Austerity which massively impacted the working class. We’ve got the worst State Pensions in Europe and are made to work longer. They cut police, shut fire stations and cut fire fighters. Underfunded the NHS/local services, refuse to give health care workers the pay rise they so deserve. Funnelled billions of pounds into the pockets of their donors. The pandemic death toll has been horrific and front line staff weren’t given the PPE they needed which resulted in 300 plus of them dying. And as for that pathetic big lump of lard Johnson who whilst his wife was having treatment for cancer was shagging his mistress in the marital home and who won’t even admit how many kids he has. The corruption he’s so obviously involved with, I could go on... I’ve tried to get my head around why anyone would still vote for them, I really have I just don’t get it.

Labour lost control of Sheffield Council - lost 5 seats to Greens and 3 to LibDems.

Tories have their first council seat in 20 years (they were extinct before yesterday, and lost their last MP in 1997).

UKIP/Brexit collapse has helped Tories and LibDems; left disillusionment with Starmer's Labour has helped the Greens.

Surely time for Corbyn to step down as ex Labour Leader and accept full responsibility?

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Labour lost control of Sheffield Council - lost 5 seats to Greens and 3 to LibDems.

Tories have their first council seat in 20 years (they were extinct before yesterday, and lost their last MP in 1997).

UKIP/Brexit collapse has helped Tories and LibDems; left disillusionment with Starmer's Labour has helped the Greens.

Surely time for Corbyn to step down as ex Labour Leader and accept full responsibility?

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:hehe: :hehe: