1 in 5 children is living below the poverty line in every part of Wales ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

It isn't cobblers Sludge, you just need to look at the facts

In 1929 there were 250k jobs in the Welsh mining industry, in 1979 there were 20k. At that rate the mines were closing by 1984. more mines were closed under Labour in the 1960s than at any other time. Under Thatcher 3% of South Wales worked in the mines and lost their jobs when that industry closed, with many retraining.

Under Labour, in 2008 around 6% of the Welsh workforce lost their jobs as a result of the financial crash. I don't recall any training.

Wales has faired no better or worse under Thatcher in terms of job losses. What did happen was Thatcher smashed the unions and many people just have not been able to get over it, perpetuating a myth that just does not hold up. What we have seen with the current Tory government is investment in Wales, with electrification of the South Wales mainline. That never happened under Labour.

I agree about the voters in Surrey, politicians need to earn your vote, and when you have solid blue or red areas, it breeds contempt for the wider electorate. I'm not sure of your point that you are trying to make

anyone who blindly follows a party or ideology is part of the problem.

---

Retraining under Thatcher?

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm saying that the financial crisis in 2008 affected a handful of countries. The likes of Canada, Japan, Norway, Australia, China, Russia, Germany all weathered the storm and did not enter recession.

---

type in global financial crisis , countries affected

If you think that's a handful of countries then OK 👌

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Retraining under Thatcher?

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

---

Thatchers decision to close the mines and in affect, most other industries attached to it, was ideological. What she was scared of was an organised and powerful labour force. Workers having the ability to defend themselves and protect their families and communities. It was all part of a sustained attack on workers. The beginning of the creation of the underclass, third and fourth generation on benefits and all of the social, health and educational issues that go with it.

I know that we've gone over this, but a centrist party would not defend workers and their families.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Retraining under Thatcher?

---

yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

---

you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

---

not sure of the point you're trying to make

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

---

are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

---

I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

---

it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

---

it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

---

all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

---

we do, the libdems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Thatchers decision to close the mines and in affect, most other industries attached to it, was ideological. What she was scared of was an organised and powerful labour force. Workers having the ability to defend themselves and protect their families and communities. It was all part of a sustained attack on workers. The beginning of the creation of the underclass, third and fourth generation on benefits and all of the social, health and educational issues that go with it.

I know that we've gone over this, but a centrist party would not defend workers and their families.

---

in 1929 there were 250k miners in South Wales, in 1979 when Thatcher came to power there were 20k. The long term trend indicated all the mines would be closed by 1984.

It was hardly ideological.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.


you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.


not sure of the point you're trying to make


are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.


I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.


it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.


it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you


all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.


we do, the libdems.

---

😂😂😂

I know multiple people who during the miner's strike had to burn furniture and books to keep their homes warm.

nobody had to do that after the global financial crisis in 2008

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

in 1929 there were 250k miners in South Wales, in 1979 when Thatcher came to power there were 20k. The long term trend indicated all the mines would be closed by 1984.

It was hardly ideological.

---

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

the prevailing view in the conservative party at the time (80s) was that once the jobs were all gone people would leave the area and move to London or other cities where there were jobs.
they also considered doing the same to the city of Liverpool.
literally zero concept that people would want to stay where they had grown up and where their family all were.

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

---

do they ****

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

---

thats because you are one of his lot

I ain't

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.

rubbish

you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.

We know that , it was the way it was done


not sure of the point you're trying to make


are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.

Thatcher invented incapacity benefit to park people on the sick rather than have them show up on the unemployment figures

I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.

Bollocks


it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.

It was cheaper to keep people in work , spending money in their community rather than put them on benefits , its not difficult


it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you

Of course it was , its described as a global financial crash because that's what it was , unless you , as a person I am unaware has written on the subject , thinks it wasn't? Don't stop believing mate


all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.

Bollocks


we do, the libdems.

---

Dead in the water

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

---

feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

---

Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

---

Hes a very bright lad

But I am afraid he's almost a libertarian as far as I can tell

Everything comes down to spreadsheets and profit , loss and interest rates

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I know multiple people who during the miner's strike had to burn furniture and books to keep their homes warm.

nobody had to do that after the global financial crisis in 2008

---

Wasn't the miners' strike unofficial ? I also recall Scargill was demanding 100% pay rises - when coal was costing more and more to produce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Aren't the Welsh government responsible for this? Wales has better funding per capita and the Welsh government has more powers than any English region yet we fall further behind. Austerity would impact all of the UK, not just Wales, and yet Wales falls further behind.

At what point do we start holding the Welsh Government accountable and stop blaming Westminster for our own shortcomings?

---

Well there will be another 30 to blame soon. A bigger Senydd will sort it out. Who needs a M4 relief road eh ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

---

that is one take on it but not one that stands up to scrutiny if you look at the facts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

It isn't cobblers Sludge, you just need to look at the facts

In 1929 there were 250k jobs in the Welsh mining industry, in 1979 there were 20k. At that rate the mines were closing by 1984. more mines were closed under Labour in the 1960s than at any other time. Under Thatcher 3% of South Wales worked in the mines and lost their jobs when that industry closed, with many retraining.

Under Labour, in 2008 around 6% of the Welsh workforce lost their jobs as a result of the financial crash. I don't recall any training.

Wales has faired no better or worse under Thatcher in terms of job losses. What did happen was Thatcher smashed the unions and many people just have not been able to get over it, perpetuating a myth that just does not hold up. What we have seen with the current Tory government is investment in Wales, with electrification of the South Wales mainline. That never happened under Labour.

I agree about the voters in Surrey, politicians need to earn your vote, and when you have solid blue or red areas, it breeds contempt for the wider electorate. I'm not sure of your point that you are trying to make

anyone who blindly follows a party or ideology is part of the problem.

---

You’re looking at a topic too broadly.

AI and automation will displace more jobs than the coal pit closures ever did but it’s governments task to replace those jobs in the areas it displaces.

For the tories in that era the areas most displaced were neglected and were still paying the price now.

Our topography doesn’t help us but you can’t hide that we were the casualty chosen in order to protect the UK as a whole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Wasn't the miners' strike unofficial ? I also recall Scargill was demanding 100% pay rises - when coal was costing more and more to produce.

---

none of that is relevant, feedback was saying that the global financial crisis of 2008 had a bigger effect on Wales than Thatcherism in the 80s. I was just pointing out that in the experience of a lot of people, Thatcherism was much worse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rjk

the prevailing view in the conservative party at the time (80s) was that once the jobs were all gone people would leave the area and move to London or other cities where there were jobs.
they also considered doing the same to the city of Liverpool.
literally zero concept that people would want to stay where they had grown up and where their family all were.

---

there is merit in depopulating parts of the valleys, as those communities were only created to extract coal out of the ground. when the extraction economy finished, the communities were going to decline. As unpalatable as that may sound, its just reality.

The topography of the valleys does not lend itself well to modern day light and hi-tec industry, so it is always going to be difficult to replace something like mining. However, there is a degree of historical revisionism, as the mines only employed 3% of the workforce in 1984, so losing that 3% isn't going to impact the overall economy in the way that is being described. We saw much greater job losses in 2008 yet we don't say the communities suffered as much, even though they most probably did, given the lack of government support at that time.

The anti Thatcher/Tory rhetoric is merely dogma, one that promulgates throughout the political discourse of South Wales politics. The fact is, it was nearly 40 years ago - two generations - and in that time we have had Labour rule at Westminster and Welsh Labour rule in the Senedd. If the economic fortunes could have been reversed, Labour and the left have had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

The fact is, Wales has a weak economy (you only need to look at all the land surrounding the Senedd that remains undeveloped - anywhere else in the world and land next to government is prime real estate that is snapped up), Labour know this, and they keep the Welsh population voting for them by continually blaming the Tories, even though the decline had set in long before Thatcher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

---

I believe in responsible capitalism and social democracy sludge. what I don't believe is the version of history as you interpret it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

---

I have no problem with social democracy at all, I also have no issues with certain aspects of socialism, if the state remains well clear of it and allows the people to decide.

My first job was on a building site, making compo. it was good fun but I decided I could better serve my community by making sure the state doesn't sting the little guy by hammering him for tax

:thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I believe in responsible capitalism and social democracy sludge. what I don't believe is the version of history as you interpret it.

---

Come on responsible capitalism is a oxymoron

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I have no problem with social democracy at all, I also have no issues with certain aspects of socialism, if the state remains well clear of it and allows the people to decide.

My first job was on a building site, making compo. it was good fun but I decided I could better serve my community by making sure the state doesn't sting the little guy by hammering him for tax

:thumbup:

---

The boys from the blackstuff, a self made man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

---

Good post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

You’re looking at a topic too broadly.

AI and automation will displace more jobs than the coal pit closures ever did but it’s governments task to replace those jobs in the areas it displaces.

For the tories in that era the areas most displaced were neglected and were still paying the price now.

Our topography doesn’t help us but you can’t hide that we were the casualty chosen in order to protect the UK as a whole

---

when discussing economics you have to take a broad brush,. you can't go down to the individual level. You understand full well our topography makes anything resembling large modern manufacturing out of the question, and we can't build huge industrial parks at the top of the Valleys as the market won't go there.

My view is that we should depopulate the northern valleys building better integrated communities between Cardiff, RCT, Caerphilly. Cardiff isn't an economic powerhouse but it does ok. Create jobs there that actually bring economic value to Wales, have a modern integrated public transport system and things may improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

thats because you are one of his lot

I ain't

---

You couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m a working class boy from Ely. You’re problem, is you are blinkered when it comes to politics.
Anyone who disagrees with you is aTory in your eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

there is merit in depopulating parts of the valleys, as those communities were only created to extract coal out of the ground. when the extraction economy finished, the communities were going to decline. As unpalatable as that may sound, its just reality.

The topography of the valleys does not lend itself well to modern day light and hi-tec industry, so it is always going to be difficult to replace something like mining. However, there is a degree of historical revisionism, as the mines only employed 3% of the workforce in 1984, so losing that 3% isn't going to impact the overall economy in the way that is being described. We saw much greater job losses in 2008 yet we don't say the communities suffered as much, even though they most probably did, given the lack of government support at that time.

The anti Thatcher/Tory rhetoric is merely dogma, one that promulgates throughout the political discourse of South Wales politics. The fact is, it was nearly 40 years ago - two generations - and in that time we have had Labour rule at Westminster and Welsh Labour rule in the Senedd. If the economic fortunes could have been reversed, Labour and the left have had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

The fact is, Wales has a weak economy (you only need to look at all the land surrounding the Senedd that remains undeveloped - anywhere else in the world and land next to government is prime real estate that is snapped up), Labour know this, and they keep the Welsh population voting for them by continually blaming the Tories, even though the decline had set in long before Thatcher.

---

3 percent of a workforce in quite well paid employment, that had direct links to manufacturing, maintenance, repair, transport, logistics, and plenty of that within the boundaries of those communities. You know that the actual figure wasn't the one you've quoted, overall. The knock on effect was huge in every respect, from the local cafe to the factory making parts and the local boozer etc.

The other thing to takei into account was the community emphasis that the mining industry created. People were upwardly mobile and proactive in terms of social care and community events, thus creating a good environment for people to grow up in, which leads to better health, motivation and something to protect and nurture. That aspect went with the attack on these communities, without a doubt.

What we are left with is a population that has had it's dignity and pride stripped away, generations of people without any real opportunity within their community, poor levels of education, teenage pregnancy, addiction to prescription drugs (see Blaenau Gwent) 30 years of neglect on both sides of the political spectrum, it's very sad to see. The difference with Thatcher is that she set out to crush these people and all that they stood for, she saw them as the enemy. It was vicious and uncompromising, that's why the Tories are hated, because they crushed these communities, and Labour have done very little for them in subsequent years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

3 percent of a workforce in quite well paid employment, that had direct links to manufacturing, maintenance, repair, transport, logistics, and plenty of that within the boundaries of those communities. You know that the actual figure wasn't the one you've quoted, overall. The knock on effect was huge in every respect, from the local cafe to the factory making parts and the local boozer etc.

The other thing to takei into account was the community emphasis that the mining industry created. People were upwardly mobile and proactive in terms of social care and community events, thus creating a good environment for people to grow up in, which leads to better health, motivation and something to protect and nurture. That aspect went with the attack on these communities, without a doubt.

What we are left with is a population that has had it's dignity and pride stripped away, generations of people without any real opportunity within their community, poor levels of education, teenage pregnancy, addiction to prescription drugs (see Blaenau Gwent) 30 years of neglect on both sides of the political spectrum, it's very sad to see. The difference with Thatcher is that she set out to crush these people and all that they stood for, she saw them as the enemy. It was vicious and uncompromising, that's why the Tories are hated, because they crushed these communities, and Labour have done very little for them in subsequent years.

---

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

---

Got to hand it to you, you’re the best on here at posting figures galore while never bothering with the links to back them up. Just about a decade before the 80s miners strike, they played as big a part as anyone in bringing down Ted Heath’s Government, yet you don’t think that played a part in how the Thatcher Government handled the closing stages of that idiot Scargill’s strike?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

---

Wow.

Using a 18 year old miner to back up your argument on retraining and opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Got to hand it to you, you’re the best on here at posting figures galore while never bothering with the links to back them up. Just about a decade before the 80s miners strike, they played as big a part as anyone in bringing down Ted Heath’s Government, yet you don’t think that played a part in how the Thatcher Government handled the closing stages of that idiot Scargill’s strike?

---

why do you always need links? are you suggesting that every time someone references anything and everything there needs to be citation? notwithstanding that point, fill your boots

mining numbers

impact of financial crash

from an unemployment low of 17,800 in Dec 2007 to a high of 44,400 in Dec 2012, Wales lost just under 30,000 jobs as a result of the great recession with the unemployment rate rising from 1.3% to 3.0% in the same period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilts

Wow.

Using a 18 year old miner to back up your argument on retraining and opportunities.

---

no. I was citing an anecdote of someone who was there and lived through it. all we have in response is dogma and rhetoric.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

no. I was citing an anecdote of someone who was there and lived through it. all we have in response is dogma and rhetoric.

---

Sorry. Im sure that 18 year old lived through all the hardships.

Wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilts

Sorry. Im sure that 18 year old lived through all the hardships.

Wow.

---

You seem to begrudge someone avoiding spending their life underground, taking an opportunity to retrain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

why do you always need links? are you suggesting that every time someone references anything and everything there needs to be citation? notwithstanding that point, fill your boots

mining numbers

impact of financial crash

from an unemployment low of 17,800 in Dec 2007 to a high of 44,400 in Dec 2012, Wales lost just under 30,000 jobs as a result of the great recession with the unemployment rate rising from 1.3% to 3.0% in the same period.

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No, I’m only saying that as you admitted recently that you wound up left wing posters on here for years (you used a term like “yanking their chain” as if that means something different, but if it does, it eludes me), I’m sceptical about any of the grand sweeping statements you’re fond of making without them being backed up by a link - it’s only you I was talking about regarding putting links in.

I see you ignored my question about the miners strikes of the 70s and 80s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

none of that is relevant, feedback was saying that the global financial crisis of 2008 had a bigger effect on Wales than Thatcherism in the 80s. I was just pointing out that in the experience of a lot of people, Thatcherism was much worse

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You mean in the experience of the vocal minority who wish to push the anti tory agenda, some of whom were still sitting yellow in 1984

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

You couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m a working class boy from Ely. You’re problem, is you are blinkered when it comes to politics.
Anyone who disagrees with you is aTory in your eyes.

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If you agree with a tory , you are generally a tory

I don't care where you come from or what class you are

Its completely irrelevant