M25 Blocked in Both Directions

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Of course she didnt deserve it. What happened was clearly tragic and I clearly havent expressed myself well.

Escalating protests where you are putting peoples lives at serious risk is not the way to go about it.

Theres one thing causing a severe disruption in peoples lives put putting lives at severe risk isnt the way to go about it.

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The sad truth is that this is exactly what governments and corporations and apathy are doing to millions of people every day.

Try not to think in such narrow terms. It's a trap we're programmed to fall into. Have a read about Cognitive Dissonance.

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Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad

Drivers should be free to give them a good kicking. They won't do it again, the drivers will feel a tonne better and police time won't be wasted. It's a win win in my books.

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There have been floods washing out the roads in Spain recently. Should drivers be free to give the floods a good kicking? The floods won't do it again, the drivers will feel a tonne wetter and police time won't be wasted (unless they use those roads to answer a call).

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Originally Posted by az city

I presume a few on this thread think Emily Davison isn't a hero too. She was lambasted at the time.

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Sorry, for me, this is another example of a slight absence of logic or reason.

You cannot make any assumptions from someone's opposition to people blocking the M25 in relation to climate change in 2021 to someone else throwing themselves in front of a horse in 1913 about votes for women.

There have been thousands of illegal protests around the world; some may be just, some weren't. Time will tell.

By your logic, no one can call for Mick McCarthy to be sacked, because people used to call for Alex Ferguson to be sacked a year into his tenancy. Or no one can protest a war in 2021 because people also protested going to war against Nazi Germany, and they were wrong to do so. You just can't make assumptions and you can't easily compare two totally different scenarios.

It's different scenarios, so you are presenting a strawman argument.

No one is saying that votes for women wasn't critical and a wholly just movement. The point there is that there were no democratic means to protest. Women literally could not vote. They couldnt enact change by democratic means.

However, climate change activists can vote. They can protest, they can lobby and they can (and do!) enact change, as no doubt they have helped make the UK one of the most rapidly decarboning countries in the world.

You can support the message (or not!) and not support the means. There's dozens of examples of that. I support trans rights for example, but I don't support harassing Labour MPs about it. I support a two-state solution in Palestine/Israel, but I don't support hounding jews. I support insulating British homes, but I don't support people blocking roads they have no right to do.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

There have been floods washing out the roads in Spain recently. Should drivers be free to give the floods a good kicking? The floods won't do it again, the drivers will feel a tonne wetter and police time won't be wasted (unless they use those roads to answer a call).

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Huh? Are you comparing floods to people LOL

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Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad

Huh? Are you comparing floods to people LOL

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it's no more ridiculous than you saying that hundreds of drivers should be allowed to get out of their cars and give some protesters a good kicking before getting back in their cars and carrying on their journey

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Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad

Huh? Are you comparing floods to people LOL

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I was just wondering about your methods of disruption control, cos there are plenty of them out there and will be more coming. The increased ferocity and frequency of environmental disasters have been brought about by our decision to pump toxic shite into the air. Should we give ourselves a good kicking? How about dragging people from their cars while they idle outside schools? What should we do with those planning airport expansions? (Apart from give them knighthoods).

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Of course she didnt deserve it. What happened was clearly tragic and I clearly havent expressed myself well.

Escalating protests where you are putting peoples lives at serious risk is not the way to go about it.

Theres one thing causing a severe disruption in peoples lives put putting lives at severe risk isnt the way to go about it.

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But climate change is an existential crisis.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Sorry, for me, this is another example of a slight absence of logic or reason.

You cannot make any assumptions from someone's opposition to people blocking the M25 in relation to climate change in 2021 to someone else throwing themselves in front of a horse in 1913 about votes for women.

There have been thousands of illegal protests around the world; some may be just, some weren't. Time will tell.

By your logic, no one can call for Mick McCarthy to be sacked, because people used to call for Alex Ferguson to be sacked a year into his tenancy. Or no one can protest a war in 2021 because people also protested going to war against Nazi Germany, and they were wrong to do so. You just can't make assumptions and you can't easily compare two totally different scenarios.

It's different scenarios, so you are presenting a strawman argument.

No one is saying that votes for women wasn't critical and a wholly just movement. The point there is that there were no democratic means to protest. Women literally could not vote. They couldnt enact change by democratic means.

However, climate change activists can vote. They can protest, they can lobby and they can (and do!) enact change, as no doubt they have helped make the UK one of the most rapidly decarboning countries in the world.

You can support the message (or not!) and not support the means. There's dozens of examples of that. I support trans rights for example, but I don't support harassing Labour MPs about it. I support a two-state solution in Palestine/Israel, but I don't support hounding jews. I support insulating British homes, but I don't support people blocking roads they have no right to do.

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You're drawing the incorrect inference from my post.

Clearly at the time it wasn't universally regarded as just otherwise there would have been universal suffrage.

You do realize the Earth is in danger? As in, all humans will go down with it too.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

I was just wondering about your methods of disruption control, cos there are plenty of them out there and will be more coming. The increased ferocity and frequency of environmental disasters have been brought about by our decision to pump toxic shite into the air. Should we give ourselves a good kicking? How about dragging people from their cars while they idle outside schools? What should we do with those planning airport expansions? (Apart from give them knighthoods).

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There's ways and means to protest but holding up people going to work, small businesses trying to survive, emergency vehicles etc etc is not one of them so yes a good kicking is what they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad

There's ways and means to protest but holding up people going to work, small businesses trying to survive, emergency vehicles etc etc is not one of them so yes a good kicking is what they deserve.

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I'm not sure how many emergency vehicles would use the motorway.

You have to be consistent though - what about all the other lives disrupted by climate change? All the deaths, illness, displacement and failed crops. We could've done something about all this decades ago but chose not to. Would you give a kicking to an oil company exec who hushed up the impact of climate breakdown?

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Originally Posted by az city

You're drawing the incorrect inference from my post.

Clearly at the time it wasn't universally regarded as just otherwise there would have been universal suffrage.

You do realize the Earth is in danger? As in, all humans will go down with it too.

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No I do understand your point. I get what you are saying; "At some point in time illegal demonstrations that didn't appear just at the time were subsequently proved to be so". I get that, and I take your point and agree. But it's just theoretical. There's plenty of other illegal demonstrations that weren't just then and are still considered such.

Either way, the key issue is democracy. Nearly Any protest was illegal in Communist states in the second half of the 20th century and and clearly many of those, in time, are now seen as just. However, that doesn't mean that in a democratic state in 2021 that every illegal protest that exists is just or will be seen as such in the future.

The fact is that there are means to protest legally within our democratic structures and that's how people should do it. I simply don't believe what they are doing is just or fair.

I also don't believe (and I say this as someone who has a lot of sympathy for the cause) that what they are doing will work. It will piss people off and turn them against them.

XR are a bit kinda militant middle class lefty for my liking, but there's loads of things I would agree with them on, and things they could do such as educate on throwaway electrical products, educate on the unsustainability of the single market, educate on the global food trade, educate on China's role in this, educate on wearing jumpers when it's cold etc!!) but I just don't agree on this...sorry

There was an interview with one of the group on GMTV a couple of days ago.

Said theyd been trying to get their voices heard for 30 years. The 2 presenters just shouted him down throughout the interview. He ended up storming off. It was shocking interviewing by a mainstream TV show.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

There was an interview with one of the group on GMTV a couple of days ago.

Said theyd been trying to get their voices heard for 30 years. The 2 presenters just shouted him down throughout the interview. He ended up storming off. It was shocking interviewing by a mainstream TV show.

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The video of the interview is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpTIrx6uAA

Will I get arrested by a 'policemanists' if I get out of my car and sit down on the M25 to say eat a sandwich , if I wasn't a protestor ?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

The video of the interview is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpTIrx6uAA

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I saw that, they had no interest in listening to anything he was saying. Although surely Insulate Britain could have found someone in their ranks who'd had their house insulated to speak on their behalf :facepalm: he was like a lamb to the slaughter

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Will I get arrested by a 'policemanists' if I get out of my car and sit down on the M25 to say eat a sandwich , if I wasn't a protestor ?

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Only one way to find out.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I saw that, they had no interest in listening to anything he was saying. Although surely Insulate Britain could have found someone in their ranks who'd had their house insulated to speak on their behalf :facepalm: he was like a lamb to the slaughter

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I genuinely think they put him up because he sounds working class.

He was totally out of his depth, and as you allude, fell at the first hurdle.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I genuinely think they put him up because he sounds working class.

He was totally out of his depth, and as you allude, fell at the first hurdle.

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They could put up one of the vicar's as spokesperson as he also represents God's words as well as loft insulation , or that chap that's at every protest 🤔

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

The video of the interview is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpTIrx6uAA

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If the term car crash television hadn’t been coined before, it would have been invented after that - nobody comes out of it with any credit.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

If the term car crash television hadn’t been coined before, it would have been invented after that - nobody comes out of it with any credit.

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Agree. Putting someone up who doesnt appear to have insulation was crazy.

Madeley is trying to be Piers Morgan though shouting down people when they try to reply.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Agree. Putting someone up who doesnt appear to have insulation was crazy.

Madeley is trying to be Piers Morgan though shouting down people when they try to reply.

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Yeh bring Piers the real deal ,Madeley is a sap

That Madley is a right dick.

Let the bloke speak ffs.

The woman was hardly a charmer either..

I dont get how he said that Insulate Britain have been writing to the government for 30 years when theyve only existed for a few months?
They're part of Extinction Rebellion aswell which might explain their fondness for hugging tarmac.

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

I dont get how he said that Insulate Britain have been writing to the government for 30 years when theyve only existed for a few months?
They're part of Extinction Rebellion aswell which might explain their fondness for hugging tarmac.

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I took that as people have been writing for 30 years, not the group.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I genuinely think they put him up because he sounds working class.

He was totally out of his depth, and as you allude, fell at the first hurdle.

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And yet he was on his feet for a bit longer than the interviewers - shocking stuff from them, but it got a result they welcomed I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

There was an interview with one of the group on GMTV a couple of days ago.

Said theyd been trying to get their voices heard for 30 years. The 2 presenters just shouted him down throughout the interview. He ended up storming off. It was shocking interviewing by a mainstream TV show.

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Genuinely glad you highlighted this so thank you. And thanks to Taunton Blue Genie for sending the link. I don't watch or listen to any mainstream media anymore, I'm not on Twitter or Facebook, this may sound strange but this is the only place I post.

The interview (if it could be called that) was shocking to me. Liam is right. For 30 years + I and many others have been trying desperately hard to raise concerns regarding conservation and the environment. I'm heartbroken at the level of failure. There isn't a single thing that is better now than it was 30 years ago. The level of despondency I feel is off the scale. I can't believe how juvenile the debate is regarding these issues and the governments, shored up by Big Oil etc. have effectively silenced the debate for decades.

Sure, Liam was like a lamb to the slaughter. But the insulation accusations are just a side-show. That's the same old guff we've been up against for decades. I've already acknowledged that the M25 protesters are misguided. But they also have a point. The hostility generated against environmentalists has been decades in the making, so we get called Tree-huggers, loons, scum. When will this sh*t end?

I'm sorry I reacted the way I did yesterday. I'm never too proud to apologise and all I ask is some understanding of the deep frustration I feel.

There are people who will risk their lives for the environment. That's been happening for 30 years too.

Journalism died a long time ago. It's worse now with fake news and social media troll farms. The internet hasn't democratised our voices, it's drowned them out. Again.

My own feeling is that it's too late. I actually feel sick writing those words. I've been shocked at some of the things I read on here but it's a football forum so what you gonna do? But to see the level of humiliation those three people put Liam through is more shocking.

I spent a huge part of my life studying and learning and working and developing medications to make people's lives better. To improve quality of life. To save lives. I feel pissed on if I'm honest. I feel, when I see and hear the same stuff I've been listening to for decades and the same juvenile arguments, I feel like, what was it all for?

I mentioned Cognitive Dissonance to you earlier and it's probably the only thing I can cling to as an explanation of why we're where we are. We, as a society, just can't deal with the consequences of our own actions so reject them outright.

I stress, I'm not picking on you. I guess, after seeing that video, I just wanted to talk to someone, albeit on a football forum.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Genuinely glad you highlighted this so thank you. And thanks to Taunton Blue Genie for sending the link. I don't watch or listen to any mainstream media anymore, I'm not on Twitter or Facebook, this may sound strange but this is the only place I post.

The interview (if it could be called that) was shocking to me. Liam is right. For 30 years + I and many others have been trying desperately hard to raise concerns regarding conservation and the environment. I'm heartbroken at the level of failure. There isn't a single thing that is better now than it was 30 years ago. The level of despondency I feel is off the scale. I can't believe how juvenile the debate is regarding these issues and the governments, shored up by Big Oil etc. have effectively silenced the debate for decades.

Sure, Liam was like a lamb to the slaughter. But the insulation accusations are just a side-show. That's the same old guff we've been up against for decades. I've already acknowledged that the M25 protesters are misguided. But they also have a point. The hostility generated against environmentalists has been decades in the making, so we get called Tree-huggers, loons, scum. When will this sh*t end?

I'm sorry I reacted the way I did yesterday. I'm never too proud to apologise and all I ask is some understanding of the deep frustration I feel.

There are people who will risk their lives for the environment. That's been happening for 30 years too.

Journalism died a long time ago. It's worse now with fake news and social media troll farms. The internet hasn't democratised our voices, it's drowned them out. Again.

My own feeling is that it's too late. I actually feel sick writing those words. I've been shocked at some of the things I read on here but it's a football forum so what you gonna do? But to see the level of humiliation those three people put Liam through is more shocking.

I spent a huge part of my life studying and learning and working and developing medications to make people's lives better. To improve quality of life. To save lives. I feel pissed on if I'm honest. I feel, when I see and hear the same stuff I've been listening to for decades and the same juvenile arguments, I feel like, what was it all for?

I mentioned Cognitive Dissonance to you earlier and it's probably the only thing I can cling to as an explanation of why we're where we are. We, as a society, just can't deal with the consequences of our own actions so reject them outright.

I stress, I'm not picking on you. I guess, after seeing that video, I just wanted to talk to someone, albeit on a football forum.

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No worries👍

Sadly Madeley in particular had no interest in anything other than trying to humiliate him , that other woman who was there for the debate couldnt wait to mention his own home and they literally jumped on him.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

No worries��

Sadly Madeley in particular had no interest in anything other than trying to humiliate him , that other woman who was there for the debate couldnt wait to mention his own home and they literally jumped on him.

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I try not to wade into some of these discussions as they often go off at ridiculous tangents, posters label and often insult each other and analogies are introduced that rarely help the debate. For my twopenneth, the protestors have not helped their cause by causing indiscriminate disruption that may have led to thousands of problems: operations being cancelled; medical staff, teachers and carers not arriving at work; people losing their income for the hours lost, medical and dental appointments lost etc etc etc. I would imagine that most people stuck on the M25 and millions beside are more resentful to the protestors than sympathise with their actions and, should that be the case, it was therefore not the best course of action. The TV presenters were pretty hopeless but the role of a spokesman is to fend off attack and turn the debate around using rationality and coherence: to convey the message regardless of the circumstances - as it was an opportunity to reach millions of viewers. Instead, the spokesman came over as an idiot and with a notable Achilles heel.
In my opinion, the protestors are responsible for a PR disaster and, sadly, deflected from a worthy cause.

They've moved on from the M25 and this morning are blocking the road at Dover

http://news.sky.com/story/insulate-b...otest-12416324

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I try not to wade into some of these discussions as they often go off at ridiculous tangents, posters label and often insult each other and analogies are introduced that rarely help the debate. For my twopenneth, the protestors have not helped their cause by causing indiscriminate disruption that may have led to thousands of problems: operations being cancelled; medical staff, teachers and carers not arriving at work; people losing their income for the hours lost, medical and dental appointments lost etc etc etc. I would imagine that most people stuck on the M25 and millions beside are more resentful to the protestors than sympathise with their actions and, should that be the case, it was therefore not the best course of action. The TV presenters were pretty hopeless but the role of a spokesman is to fend off attack and turn the debate around using rationality and coherence: to convey the message regardless of the circumstances - as it was an opportunity to reach millions of viewers. Instead, the spokesman came over as an idiot and with a notable Achilles heel.
In my opinion, the protestors are responsible for a PR disaster and, sadly, deflected from a worthy cause.

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A fair summary IMO

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I try not to wade into some of these discussions as they often go off at ridiculous tangents, posters label and often insult each other and analogies are introduced that rarely help the debate. For my twopenneth, the protestors have not helped their cause by causing indiscriminate disruption that may have led to thousands of problems: operations being cancelled; medical staff, teachers and carers not arriving at work; people losing their income for the hours lost, medical and dental appointments lost etc etc etc. I would imagine that most people stuck on the M25 and millions beside are more resentful to the protestors than sympathise with their actions and, should that be the case, it was therefore not the best course of action. The TV presenters were pretty hopeless but the role of a spokesman is to fend off attack and turn the debate around using rationality and coherence: to convey the message regardless of the circumstances - as it was an opportunity to reach millions of viewers. Instead, the spokesman came over as an idiot and with a notable Achilles heel.
In my opinion, the protestors are responsible for a PR disaster and, sadly, deflected from a worthy cause.

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Cant argue with much of that TBG - right from the first question, he was confrontational and so completely wasted what might have been an opportunity for public sympathy given the aggressive nature of the questioning (especially from the proven liar, former Daily Star editor).

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Genuinely glad you highlighted this so thank you. And thanks to Taunton Blue Genie for sending the link. I don't watch or listen to any mainstream media anymore, I'm not on Twitter or Facebook, this may sound strange but this is the only place I post.

The interview (if it could be called that) was shocking to me. Liam is right. For 30 years + I and many others have been trying desperately hard to raise concerns regarding conservation and the environment. I'm heartbroken at the level of failure. There isn't a single thing that is better now than it was 30 years ago. The level of despondency I feel is off the scale. I can't believe how juvenile the debate is regarding these issues and the governments, shored up by Big Oil etc. have effectively silenced the debate for decades.

Sure, Liam was like a lamb to the slaughter. But the insulation accusations are just a side-show. That's the same old guff we've been up against for decades. I've already acknowledged that the M25 protesters are misguided. But they also have a point. The hostility generated against environmentalists has been decades in the making, so we get called Tree-huggers, loons, scum. When will this sh*t end?

I'm sorry I reacted the way I did yesterday. I'm never too proud to apologise and all I ask is some understanding of the deep frustration I feel.

There are people who will risk their lives for the environment. That's been happening for 30 years too.

Journalism died a long time ago. It's worse now with fake news and social media troll farms. The internet hasn't democratised our voices, it's drowned them out. Again.

My own feeling is that it's too late. I actually feel sick writing those words. I've been shocked at some of the things I read on here but it's a football forum so what you gonna do? But to see the level of humiliation those three people put Liam through is more shocking.

I spent a huge part of my life studying and learning and working and developing medications to make people's lives better. To improve quality of life. To save lives. I feel pissed on if I'm honest. I feel, when I see and hear the same stuff I've been listening to for decades and the same juvenile arguments, I feel like, what was it all for?

I mentioned Cognitive Dissonance to you earlier and it's probably the only thing I can cling to as an explanation of why we're where we are. We, as a society, just can't deal with the consequences of our own actions so reject them outright.

I stress, I'm not picking on you. I guess, after seeing that video, I just wanted to talk to someone, albeit on a football forum.

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Possibly when the shockingly greedy, insensitive, uncaring, inhuman and loathsome boomers, and those of an older age, who are in a position to mould public opinion on this planet have left this mortal coil.

They are blocking Dover now , bless them.

Let's hope this is not put down to the Brexit effect if critical and essential goods arriving late .

Our life is so dependent on the smooth supply of goods, including loft insulation.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Possibly when the shockingly greedy, insensitive, uncaring, inhuman and loathsome boomers, and those of an older age, who are in a position to mould public opinion on this planet have left this mortal coil.

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Cheerio then.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Possibly when the shockingly greedy, insensitive, uncaring, inhuman and loathsome boomers, and those of an older age, who are in a position to mould public opinion on this planet have left this mortal coil.

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For some reason, I thought that you were a boomer.
That’s the internet for you I guess.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

For some reason, I thought that you were a boomer.
That’s the internet for you I guess.

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He’s too old to be a Boomer :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

For some reason, I thought that you were a boomer.
That’s the internet for you I guess.

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I am one, our generation have been terrible for this planet.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I am one, our generation have been terrible for this planet.

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Think you’ll find it started the previous centuries with the Industrial revolution Paul. Blaming one generation makes no sense. Plastic for example was invented in the 1860s, internal combustion in 1870s, first flight 1900s. I don’t see my Generation Y kids doing anything different to their predecessors.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Cheerio then.

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If you think there is any way that I belong among the sort of people I was talking about, you’ve either completely misunderstood my point or think I have an influence thousands or millions of times beyond what I actually do.

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

Think you’ll find it started the previous centuries with the Industrial revolution Paul. Blaming one generation makes no sense. Plastic for example was invented in the 1860s, internal combustion in 1870s, first flight 1900s. I don’t see my Generation Y kids doing anything different to their predecessors.

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I’m not jus talking about the environment, our generation have fought pointless wars which produced consequences like the Taliban being stronger now than when we in in to “liberate” Afghanistan, messed up economically (2008), been a prominent part of a media that’s moulded the world in its owners’ image and produced pretty useless or dangerous leaders (Putin and so many others). Domestically, we have a life expectancy rate that was coming down before Covid, Brexit has torn the country asunder and the Union is falling apart (no bad thing perhaps). Where the boomer generation has done well is through the work of scientists and researchers which was seen to its greatest effect in the development of a Covid vaccine so quickly, but so many of the “influencers” I’m talking about are in the business of deriding experts and specialists.