Sounds like you’re describing the problems with capitalism rather than climate change.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
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Sounds like you’re describing the problems with capitalism rather than climate change.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
I don't think capitalism and climate change have much in common; Communist countries don't have good environmental records, nor do socialist countries such as Venezuela.Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
Those who have decarbonised the most are all resolutely capitalist, and it is from within capitalism that solutions will inevitably be solved.
This isn't meant as a defence of capitalism, which is merely famously the "least worse economic system apart from all the others" it's just that this topic is too important to get lost in wider economic arguments.
We need all countries, all ideologies, all economies to get on board and implying that to deliver climate change means dumping capitalism is only going to make the argument less appealing. It is in fact the big mistake that many Green parties have made, and why they are generally so unelectable.
Personally, I'd avoid conflating the two issues.
That's not at all what what is being said by Monkfish and Croesy here.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
If rich politicians are gathering to discuss their response, which is likely to impact poor people most, then that is not happening because of climate change. Climate change is just the guise under which they're doing it.
I wasn’t conflating the two issues even slightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
As with a lot of political ideologies capitalism works as long as it isn’t being fronted by a bunch of corrupt greedy millionaires with no grasp of or real care for humanity.
Unfortunately in many western countries that’s the exact type of people who are in charge.
Fair enough :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
Unfortunately - especially for younger people - the low-tax, free market world will soon be a thing of the past. Added to this, ordinary people are be told to pay for policies like 'zero carbon' . Policies that are driven by those to whom it will have no financial impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
But we need those policies. The problem you have is with the shite people we have in charge of putting them in place and funding then by increasing taxes on the poor rather than the rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
The last point is valid, but comes up against the same old problem governments have had for the last 100 years ; you can tax the rich as much as you want, but there aren't enough of them to make any difference. You can't tax the 'poor', ie those below the tax threshold, receiving benefits, so the burden ends up on the middle class, which really means anyone else, including probably 95% of us on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
There are definitely enough rich to make a difference
You can say the same when it comes to paying for the effects of covid, and I'd agree with that too. It'll be us who pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
But I think you're suggesting that climate change is manufactured, or at least exaggerated, in order to create the policies. I'd say it's a very real and incredibly serious problem that's not being dealt with properly on a global scale.
You're just making stuff up here. Young people want the richest, those who've benefited from insane levels of wealth inequality, those who've bought out our governmenrs to rig tax laws to fix the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
How are ordinary people told to pay for policies like zero carbon?
Climate change is real, though I wonder what difference anything the UK does will have any effect. I don't think Boris thinks it will either - he just likes the glory, media attention, kudos, that goes with it all - plus keep his Missus happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
Are you serious ? Who do you think is paying for it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
That is true because they have managed to brainwash people into thinking that tax = income tax. Obscene inherited generational wealth is barely touched whilst every penny the average person (earning 20k or 200k) earns from employment is scrutinised.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Dull as phucking dog shiit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
Excuse me? Of course she should face scrutiny. If everything she advocated kicked in tomorrow millions would lose their jobs. I am very pro greening our economy but it needs to be done whilst taking account of numerous factors. No issue with campaigning but if you put someone up to make political statements, they should be allowed to be criticised. Otherwise they are a religious leader in a theocracy. Nothing wrong with it, but people are allowed to question what she says. That's creepy otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
And I have explained why someone who gets paid for something and votes a way may not be corrupt. It happens all the time, and as explained, MPs get paid by trade unions all the time and vote for pro trade union policies. It doesn't mean they are corrupt. Either way, politicians are scrutinized and elected so it's all fine. It's a totally different scenario.
Just because you want someone to be corrupt doesn't make it so. If you know otherwise about this MP you should report it to the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. I suspect you won't be doing that.
Who the hell is Greta Thunberg anyway?
Nobody is really paying for it at the moment as we are doing **** all.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
Croesys next girlfriend I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by stan butler
here we go stanQuote:
Originally Posted by stan butler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHvyWACMnnU
blau, blau ,blau ...
I don't think anybody in this thread or beyond is actually questioning what she says though. Their current plan seems to be primarily to make insinuations about her motives without a shred of evidence and then occasionally go all 'bleeding heart' and pretend to care about her mental wellbeing (intertwined with some casual thinly veiled insults).Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
That is a very naive take on the state of British politics and I think you know that. It isn't against the rules to take money from somebody and vote in their favour, it would be impossible to police but that definitely doesn't mean that it isn't corruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
What political statements does Greta make?
Indeed, but the point is that people are allowed to scrutinize what she says, debate her points, hold her to account etc. There is nothing wrong with that and it's an important part of political discourseQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It's in reference to a thread on the politics post and someone saying someone is corrupt for that scenario. My point is that it isn't necessarily so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
You may not agree with them, but it doesn't mean they are corrupt, which is s strong word.
It's hardly a neutral source, so was Johnson's speech really as bad as this suggests?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-chance-saloon
This story just seems so UK 2021 to me;-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-59128618
India promises to be carbon neutral by 2070 - is it worth them bothering?
Fair play, you're duller than I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
This reply is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "it's not happening..." repeatedly.
Questions, who is scrutinising Greta Thunberg and why?
Have they found anything improper yet?
Wouldn't you say for instance, accepting money from a fossil fuels company and then consistently voting against 'green' measures which would reduce the use of said fossil fuels looks slightly suspect and deserves a lot more scrutiny and investigation than a 16 year old kid whose got on her high horse over the fact she doesn't want to see Cardiff underwater in the next century?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Asking for a friend.
But but but Greta flies on a plane sometimes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
You are talking about two entirely different topics from two entirely different threads that have nothing to do with eachother on a football message board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
And you call me dull.
Everyone should be scrutinized.
Someone having a belief in something doesn't necessarily mean they are corrupt.
These aren't difficult concepts to understand. I've explained it already so go and read that.
Now stop picking fights!
Hang on handsome. I didn't bring the two topics together, you did!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I've just asked a question, rhetorically and with more than a hint of sarcasm.
Not spoiling for a fight either. This whole conversation is akin to stabbing a kitten with a knitting needle.
No I didn't..Croesy did. And maybe he's not being entirely honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
You're right though, I shall put the knitting needle down now. 👍
I think increasingly what ever the zeitgeist says, it's accepted in the mainstream/media/political classes without the scrutiny or critique that there would have been perhaps a decade ago. A simple example would be the origins of Covid 19. Dare utter the view that it came out of a lab. in China, and you'd have been derided. You would have found it hard to read anything on Google to that effect as Google had conveniently pushed them downwards, yet today the US has pretty much said that's where it came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Anyway, we're going to have 2 weeks of nauseating fawning over a little girl, who'll be annoyingly even smuggier by the end.
You're winning here, we can all see that?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Fantastic, we're going to spend taxes on green initiatives to hit somewhat grandstanding targets instead of going to where it's desperately needed in our country to offset what the rest of the world is doing.
What a few years it is for the younger generation who have also got the luxury of spiralling house prices and a decade of low wages from the 2008 financial crash.
Great timing.
I think so yeah. I'm sure most agree that everyone who puts themselves in the public discourse should be able to be scrutinized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
And equally a politician who receives payment for an area of expertise isn't necessarily corrupt.
These are pretty uncontroversial statements so glad to see you coming round to them.
The guardian is a pretty poor source nowadays, especially in terms of the opinion pieces. John Crace is a fairly light-hearted columnist I guess but it's actually one of the most click-baity papers there is now IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
The story about wheelchair access is absolutely unbelievable.
Agree on India. I am sympathetic to the view that it may curtail their development after the west has been allowed to develop but I'd say that is subservient to the wider picture. The future has to be in solar and wind in countries like India.
the US have not pretty much said that it came from a lab in China at allQuote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish