Ah so it would have just carried on working brilliantly forever, the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
You live in your head mate.
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Ah so it would have just carried on working brilliantly forever, the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
You live in your head mate.
Thatcher BoyQuote:
Originally Posted by dembethewarrior
Just a nipper a post ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
If it dont fit the fairytale scenario in your head... :hehe:
There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was greatQuote:
Originally Posted by dembethewarrior
There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler
You can never tell
There are Americans that are now making out the taliban etc as hero's, domestic extremists using the same playbook to wreak havoc in the US (or attempt it)Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Worlds gone mad.
No everyone that doesn't agree with you is the extreme end of what you hate. I've only ever voted Labour, don't really want to vote as they're all a pile of shit, but my grandad used to hate tories and so does my old man who is a bit like you my old girl used to hate them as well but recently voted tory because of how utter shite Labour are, I couldn't do that so I am now in the no vote camp..suppose I can't whinge if I don't vote or so people say.
Well the current Labour Party are terribleQuote:
Originally Posted by dembethewarrior
I think people nowadays need an alternative to the conservatives , look at labourcand think bollocks to that
I don't think the labour party is relevant any more
I know lots of people who don't vote , I can't force them to . I wish everyone supported Cardiff City .
What a ridiculous thing to post, especially at 8.25 on a Monday morning!Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Mad as a shoebox full of frogs!
Correct, how could anybody think Thatcher was great.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
touche..Quote:
Originally Posted by splott parker
't' is very close to 'd' on the keyboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It's an easy mistake to make.....
Why exclude young women from Hitler love ?? , that's quite a sexist stance if you don't mind me saying .Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
There also maybe older people who think Maggie was great ,as they voted for her , are they likely to be Nazis as I feel worried now ??
What about that Blair fella , or Corbyn , which group are attracted to them .
The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.
Que?Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
I understand the first part of your post (although I don't agree with you) but what comparison are you trying to make with the Spanish Civil War? Was the democratically elected Spanish government doomed to failure, because..... it wanted to bring down a democratically elected government? Wasn't Franco the 'egotistical maniac leader'? Maybe a bit of explanation before you rest your case?
Thank god that particular union leader was deafted he did them no favours and it shows his own personal greed , in a time when the NUM had very little funds and had plenty to say about rich Tories ,dreadful little man :Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
"""Former miners' leader Arthur Scargill has lost his High Court fight to have the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) continue to pay for his London flat.
Mr Scargill was president of the NUM until July 2002 and led it during the miners' strike from 1984 to 1985.
He stepped down as president of the union but claimed his contract entitled him to a London home for life, or the life of his widow.
Chris Kitchen, NUM general secretary, said Mr Scargill had been "found out".
Mr Scargill said that the judgment was "perverse".
He added: "There can be no doubt that 30 years ago I was given an entitlement to a property by the union and that entitlement continued during my retirement, as it had done for all my predecessors including Lord Gormley and, after he died, his widow Lady Gormley." """
I try to hang around for a few pages when complex subjects come up - as it's so interesting to read the experiences and views of others in the first place. Not to hang onto anyone's coat tails but to take on board more information than I had before the thread started. The advantage of participating in a message board is that we have the benefit of more than just our own experiences and knowledge.
Having been brought up in Cardiff and only taking in what was presented in the limited media, I have no personal experience to relate but I have always thought that the miner's strike was just as much about class war as anything else. This country has been blighted with that cancer longer than many of our European neighbours and it was evident in the workplace and in the forces at that time (and still hung around in the latter for quite some time, something I do have experience of, having been a civilain working with naval officers and visiting naval bases. (I wasn't merely a junior civil servant but by some quirk I was always afforded naval officer status on naval bases, which meany I was waited on in plush restaurant areas rather than sitting down on formica tables in the ratings' canteen where it was self-service.
I'm not of the left nor the right precisely as I have never wished to fall down on one particular side and having lived and worked abroad in Germany in the late 70's the following class characteristics that we had at the time seemed to be absent or minimal:
1. Academic qualifications v qualifications in Engineering etc (white v blue collar)
2. Private schools (seemed to be less than encouraged)
3. Bosses v worker conflicts
4. Royalty
5. Honours Lists
6. Hereditary Peers
7. Apprenticeships
8. Us v them
My personal experiences and memories may have been limited or faulty and I have no interest in taking a unilateral or myopic tack of any description. I do think the class divide was partly responsible for many ills in industry in the 70's though. I think it may have changed to a great degree but perhaps it'snow more about an income divide is now drawn a bit lower down the ladder, as it were.
Just a few thoughts and I certainly don't think I know it all!
Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
As usual, left and right play out it's ideological dance and as usual common sense and compromise go out the window and the normal people sufferQuote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
OK. I don't agree with your description of Scargill, the NUM or the main drivers for the 1984-5 strike, although your view is shared hy a lot of people (from the editor of The Sun to Kinnock). Without the full financial and political support of the Labour Party, the TUC, and constituent TUC unions the strike was always likely to fail. It may have failed (later) even with that support.Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
But your analogy with the Spanish Civil War still makes no sense to me. Scargill and the NUM lost to a better prepared government backed by coal stockpiles and a militarised police operation. Franco and his fascists won against a democratically elected government and held power for 40 years. For them a triumph not a failure. The lesson from that seems to be less about megalomanic leaders and lack of mandate (or lack of a specific ballot to endorse conference policy) but that having an army, a willingness to commit atrocities, and international backers with a Condor Squadron leads to success?
Franco won a Pyrrhic victory and hardly a triumph. Spain under Franco was as divided as it was before. My point again is that sooner or later consensus will win through and the people will decide. Scargill never commanded support of his own troops and chose the most inauspicious time to start the battle. Moreover his generals were treated with derision by the general population. Remember Emlyn Williams speech peroration “ we will win or die in the attempt “. To the vast majority of the population and NUM members that was just a joke. Kinnock was right “ lions led by donkeys”.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
IMO and many others saw Scargill’s ill judged attempt to overthrow the Thatcher govt. as a perverse last stab by a major union to have some kind of power sharing, if not outright power, in the body politic. It failed dismally because the vast majority of people didn’t want to know. The following years saw substantial dismantling of union power by parliament which has not been rescinded since by parties of any persuasion. Even though there has been an increase in union membership for the last 4 years trade union membership in 2020 was only 23.7% of all employees.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
No point me getting involved. I'm a staunch paid up member of the tory party.
And come from a council house up the valleys.
Thank fack thatcher closed the mines
A. Lots of us youngsters could have ended up down there.
B. The snowflake where there's a blame there's a claim culture would have wiped the floor with compensation.
And I also hate socialism.
I've worked bloody hard for my money , the more of it I get to keep the better.
Fack the feckless
Yeah, but Scargill was correct, as shown in the documents in 2016. Thatcher and Mac gregor lied through their teeth about pit closures and the police were instructed to attack miners and criminalise them for picketing. It was an attack on the working class.Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
You put screws in wood with an impact driver. Shut up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nugent
Where does Scargill 8 million wealth fit into the US and them
Are you Greenslade or Maxwell?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
You obviously haven’t followed the thread. You are deluded in thinking that Scargill gave a toss about pit closures. Pit closures, which would have happened anyway and did under a Labour Govt., were merely a false premise veiling his tactically inept grab for power. Scargill himself criminalised picketing and made it illegal by not having a democratic secret ballot of his members, which he was advised upon by some of his sidekicks as something he would lose. If this idiot had called a ballot prior to striking there would have been a lot more public support instead of as it turned out practically none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
The worst parody profile on here by far.Quote:
Originally Posted by nugent
Scargill knew the truth, which has come to light. Miners were being told that there jobs were not under threat, even a letter was delivered to their houses saying so, from Macgregor. Lies, total lies. If Scargill had called a ballot then some miners would not have come out, making it easier for Thatcher to do exactly what she had set out to do. An easy ride of it so to speak. But as we know, Scargill was correct about the closures and by not calling a ballot the Government had a fight on their hands that probably wouldn't have happened due to Thatcher lying through her teeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
There was no ballot in 1981 when Notts Miners put Thatcher on her toes concerning mass closures and there was no ballot in 1972 when nearly a million workers went on strike to support the Pentonville 5 dockers who had been jailed for resisting against anti union legislation, So, what difference would a ballot have made?
Regrettably I have to agree that the NCB lied about pit closures. I've mentioned earlier that my relative was the Senior Deputy Chairman of the NCB and my research indicated that as the government's spokesman he undoubtedly misrepresented the plans for the coal industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
If I could post images on here, I'd quote chapter and verse on this.
But that doesn't make Scargill a saint.
Lets just say that your relative was lied to as well :hehe: :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Once U shop, U can't stop
That Scargill was prepared to use flying pickets says much about the man.
Sounds daring and adventurous doesn't it "Flying Pickets".
But they threatened violence and death.
"The government failed to mount a serious challenge to Arthur Scargill's flying pickets during the 1972 miners' strike because they had secret police advice that any serious attempt to break the blockade of Britain's power stations was bound to lead to violence and deaths. The government failed to mount a serious challenge to Arthur Scargill's flying pickets during the 1972 miners' strike because they had secret police advice that any serious attempt to break the blockade of Britain's power stations was bound to lead to violence and deaths. The cabinet papers confirm that the emergence for the first time in the 1972 strike of the 1,000-plus flying pickets targeting power stations and coal depots"
"Scargill's pickets had succeeded in closing the gates of the West Midlands gas board's Saltley coke depot in Birmingham, where 100,000 tonnes of coal was stockpiled, even comes through the dry prose of the official minutes. Mr Scargill had been pouring men into Saltley for six days but the climax came on February 10 when Midland engineers on 24-hour strike arrived at the gates like "Prussian columns at Waterloo" and a crowd of 7,000 outnumbered the 500 police.
"Its enforced closure represents a victory for violence against the lawful activities of the gas board and the coal merchants. This provides disturbing evidence of the ease with which, by assembling large crowds, militants could flout the law with impunity because of the risk that attempts to enforce it would provoke disorder on a large scale," the home secretary, Reginald Maudling, told the cabinet. Ministers were told that the pickets were being paid £2 a day by the NUM to cover travel and food."
If we focus on Scargill's use of these pickets, exactly WHY the Notts miners broke away and why Scargill didn't legalise strike action, we have a clear picture of the militant, controlling, violence-endorsing man he was.
You are right, if Scargill had called a ballot then he would probably have lost. In the circumstances his tactical ineptness meant little public support for the strike and culminated in Thatcher abrogating the magnanimity of the victor and dealing with the aftermath in a ruthless way. The strikes of 1972 and 1981 did little or nothing to mitigate ant union legislation. The old adage “ politics is the art of the possible “ was not understood at all by Scargill or not wanted to be understood and therefore it is obvious to any disinterested party that his members interests were not uppermost in his mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
God knows who Greenslade is , Scargill was no better than Maxwell both made millions out of ordinary working families.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
Scargill was hypocritical as watched the NUM struggle after its demise while he survived in a very wealthy lifestyle, and fought court cases against them when they were down, dreadful man .
The alternative view is that the Notts miners were told Thatcher would look after them long before the strike so they broke away and as soon as they had been used they were dumpedQuote:
Originally Posted by Once U shop, U can't stop
A lot of political analysts think scargill would have won a ballotQuote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
I have heard it said many many times
There was a ballot though, union delegates voted not to have a national ballot in it. Apparently ballot papers, posters & leaflets had already been printed had the vote been yes for a national ballot. Isn’t this the norm in government as well? Your MP (delegate) votes on various issues, representing you, whether you agree with him/her or not. Scargill went with the legitimate union rules that the delegates decision was honoured. Should he have gone against them? That wouldn’t have been very democratic. So to say that there was no ballot is incorrect.
She dropped them like a shit house seat!!Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Maxwell was a criminal who stole from workers pension funds. Greenslade was his chief editor for the Mirror who admitted at an inquiry that he had lied about scargill, smeared his name without an ounce of proof and apologised for lying. So, go on then, lets see the proof that scargill stole from members. Over to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
As Leonardo da Vinci once said “ there are three classes of people, those who see, those who see when shown, those who cannot see “.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto