Yma O Hyd

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Simple question, yes or no.

Should Welsh speakers, regardless of where they live in Wales, be able to communicate in Welsh to their local council, government etc?

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No

I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .

I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.

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Originally Posted by GL1Blue

In it's simplest terms you're saying that someone who is Welsh speaking shouldn't get a form or message in Welsh when they are in Wales.

I really can't understand why you think that's reasonable.

I'm not saying that people learn Welsh in order to fill in forms, I know people who can't speak Welsh but fill in the Welsh part of the form as they want the form to be sent out in Welsh in the future!

Clearly education makes the language stronger, that's a no-brainer. Only sending out English forms means that Welsh speakers don't get the option, but they should get that option for the reasons in the first paragraph.

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They have been given that right now but I think it's daft

There's 200 people in my street

3 houses are Welsh speaking

They get council tax forms in Welsh and English, most people in the street don't speak welsh and can't understand the forms , they are bilingual and can understand English ....it just seems a waste of money when it's just a bloody form

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

No

I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .

I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.

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End of argument from me. No point carrying on with it. You have an attitude towards this I find utterly abhorrent.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I don't think it's because I don't speak Welsh that these bilingual forms should stop .

I think they should stop because it's a waste of money and box ticking .

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You have no idea how many people use the language
It's just ignorance on your part
You don't speak the language so you won't come into contact with it and think it's not worthwhile.
I hear it spoken nearly every day
I use it in my job with welsh speakers
My daughter used to work in Cardiff and was the designated welsh speaker with customers who wanted to deal in the language.
She would have welsh speakers coming up to hear all the time and was as natural as speaking in English

You say you would prefer to go walking or fishing which is mainly things you do on your own so it's not surprising you don't come across it.
The thing is that I can bump into more welsh speakers than anglers whenever I go out but I don't think that lakes and fisheries should be closed down because I don't fish and nobody i now does either.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

End of argument from me. No point carrying on with it. You have an attitude towards this I find utterly abhorrent.

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OK 👌

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Originally Posted by willo1927

You have no idea how many people use the language
It's just ignorance on your part
You don't speak the language so you won't come into contact with it and think it's not worthwhile.
I hear it spoken nearly every day
I use it in my job with welsh speakers
My daughter used to work in Cardiff and was the designated welsh speaker with customers who wanted to deal in the language.
She would have welsh speakers coming up to hear all the time and was as natural as speaking in English

You say you would prefer to go walking or fishing which is mainly things you do on your own so it's not surprising you don't come across it.
The thing is that I can bump into more welsh speakers than anglers whenever I go out but I don't think that lakes and fisheries should be closed down because I don't fish and nobody i now does either.

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Fishing , Football , Curry

Just interests

Public money generally isn't spent on that

But S4C which has dreadful viewing figures is subsidised and council forms are sent out to people in Welsh and English and its utterly pointless . And a waste of money .

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Fishing , Football , Curry

Just interests

Public money generally isn't spent on that

But S4C which has dreadful viewing figures is subsidised and council forms are sent out to people in Welsh and English and its utterly pointless . And a waste of money .

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Public money is spent on football and fishing.
Probably more than on these forms you keep banging on about.
Council tax forms ate once a year.
Maintaing parks and sporting areas are all year round.
Fishing is expensive to maintain and keep the rivers and lakes unpolluted.

The Welsh Language is massively important to Wales.
I went to Mr Urdd at Llangranog, learned to the best of my shitty ability taught by Mr Robert's at a school in Newport.

Even went to see the Cardiff Tigers (I think) American Football team at Ninian Park followed by Cefyl Pren at The Newport Centre that evening.

On the flip side, been ****ed off by the staff at Ifor Bach for rudimentary knowledge of the Welsh Language which just made me resentful rather than understanding.

Super Furry Animals have been amazing at building personal bridges for me.

I hope that the language flurries and that at some point in time the majority of people in Wales will have a better command of the language than me.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So, just for the record, you think it's a waste of money for Welsh speakers to be able to communicate in Welsh for government/local authority services in predominantly non Welsh speaking areas? Would you also get rid of Welsh language council phone lines in councils where Welsh speakers are in a minority?

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Sounds like something Thatcher would do.. bloody Tories.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I am not saying that though

I am saying in predominantly English speaking areas of South Wales drop all the silly box ticking nonsense

There are loads of ways Welsh speaking people can use the language as a living language

Try finding a Welsh speaking member of staff to deal with your council tax problem in say Barry

Good luck with that

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So basically **** the Welsh speaking people in these areas then because they are such a minority its pointless. Sounds like a tory attitude to things.

Having a mare here Sludge.

The ridiculous nature of the situation was summed up for me yesterday when for a reason to get on a Welsh language course I wrote, “I’m embarrassed that I don’t know my mother tongue “. I don’t know the language of the country that I’ve lived in for 42 years, how mental is that?

As for getting rid of Welsh literature etc, that’s only going to marginalise Welsh speakers even more and make the language less visible.

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Originally Posted by Alfresco

Yeah let's have GSTQ instead unless you have a better suggestion. which I doubt.

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What a strange thing to say. You sound a bit confused. You know that Yma O Hyd isn't our national anthem, right?

As for me coming up with 'a better suggestion', the fact is I couldn't care less what Wales fans sing before international matches. Whatever makes them happy is fine is fine by me. I think Yma O Hyd is utter garbage, but if other people like it then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

The Welsh Language is massively important to Wales.
I went to Mr Urdd at Llangranog, learned to the best of my shitty ability taught by Mr Robert's at a school in Newport.

Even went to see the Cardiff Tigers (I think) American Football team at Ninian Park followed by Cefyl Pren at The Newport Centre that evening.

On the flip side, been ****ed off by the staff at Ifor Bach for rudimentary knowledge of the Welsh Language which just made me resentful rather than understanding.

Super Furry Animals have been amazing at building personal bridges for me.

I hope that the language flurries and that at some point in time the majority of people in Wales will have a better command of the language than me.

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I totally agree with you that the Welsh language is very important . But it's made stronger by helping people to speak welsh . These forms don't do that .

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Originally Posted by willo1927

Public money is spent on football and fishing.
Probably more than on these forms you keep banging on about.
Council tax forms ate once a year.
Maintaing parks and sporting areas are all year round.
Fishing is expensive to maintain and keep the rivers and lakes unpolluted.

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I pay for fishing through my rod licence and fishing permit . That money goes towards keeping the rivers and lakes clean . It's completely irrelevant .

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

So basically **** the Welsh speaking people in these areas then because they are such a minority its pointless. Sounds like a tory attitude to things.

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No it was a Labour government that gave Wales devolution and massively invested in the Welsh language and I voted for that .

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Originally Posted by UNDERHILL1927

Having a mare here Sludge.

The ridiculous nature of the situation was summed up for me yesterday when for a reason to get on a Welsh language course I wrote, “I’m embarrassed that I don’t know my mother tongue “. I don’t know the language of the country that I’ve lived in for 42 years, how mental is that?

As for getting rid of Welsh literature etc, that’s only going to marginalise Welsh speakers even more and make the language less visible.

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I think you are being very precious . Since the Industrialisation of South Wales and the rapid growth of population English has become the dominant language . We know that 100 years ago the language was persecuted .

It's in a far better state these days thanks to the 1997 devolution and investment since then .

What people I think should be able to differentiate between is kids being beaten with a stick for speaking Welsh and the almost zealot like March towards Wales becoming a country where only 10 percent of a town like Bridgend speak welsh but the only way of getting a decent education is sending children to a Welsh school where it appears the use of the language drops out after school as the parents don't speak welsh .

Now clearly if the language for future generations can be encouraged by welsh schools and welsh education then it makes sense to analyse whether money is being spent on areas that matter .

I think that spending money on helping people to speak welsh is a good idea . I think spending money on bilingual services is a waste of money because very very few people in Wales who speak welsh as their first language are not able for the purposes of a form to understand English.

I think the pro welsh language lobby are completely over the top . Welsh is in a far better state these days and it's got nothing to do with bilingual council forms .

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I don't think it's as clear cut as that

The vast majority of forms in Welsh from government agencies that arrive on the doorstep in South East Wales go in the recycling

In South West Wales it's almost certainly going to be that a fair amount are used as Welsh is the dominant language in Carmarthenshire etc

I think in an area where Welsh is spoken hugely as a living language Welsh speakers should be provided with Welsh forms

But what's the point of spending money on Welsh council forms where the language isn't used on a day to day basis

Apart from the pontcanna taffia District where in Cardiff are people conversing in Welsh on a level that justifies spending money on forms , signage etc ?

I just think it's daft and doesn't do anything to strengthen the language

Welsh will never die now , it will always be here as the song says , like the country but the way to keep it growing is by teaching people how to speak it in English speaking Wales in schools , night classes etc

We are not going to preserve Welsh by having council tax forms sent out in Welsh

It's just a waste of money that could be spent on teaching or promoting the language . Having a form come through your door in Welsh isn't going to do that .

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I think the point you make that "Welsh will never die now" is completely incorrect.

without significant efforts to keep it going it could easily die out within a few generations.
it is held up as a model of how to maintain a minority language by many countries.

there are languages in China with tens of millions of speakers that you've never heard of, that are dying out rapidly because the Chinese government want mandarin to be the only language

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .

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Wow, I thought you were a socially conscious liberal, the mask has well and truly slipped :frown:

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Wow, I thought you were a socially conscious liberal, the mask has well and truly slipped :frown:

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Sludge facTORY


Been staring us in the face.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Sludge facTORY


Been staring us in the face.

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Ha ha. Good spot.

I recall an incident reported a couple of years ago.

Two women of let's say foreign appearance, were chatting on a bus.

A man of far right views couldn't understand their language and took exception
and berated them saying something like
"you're in England now - you should be speaking English!"

One of them replied, in English,

Actually, we're in Wales and we are speaking Welsh - what's your problem?"

There wasn't a hole deep enough for him to crawl into.

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Originally Posted by bobh

I recall an incident reported a couple of years ago.

Two women of let's say foreign appearance, were chatting on a bus.

A man of far right views couldn't understand their language and took exception
and berated them saying something like
"you're in England now - you should be speaking English!"

One of them replied, in English,

Actually, we're in Wales and we are speaking Welsh - what's your problem?"

There wasn't a hole deep enough for him to crawl into.

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I'm not disputing if it happened or not, but doesn't this sound like one of them urban myths you read online?!

In defence of Sludge...

And bearing in mind I haven't read everything here.

But it is possible to be critical of some pro-welsh language policies and that not mean you don't support the language. Same way you can be a christian and criticise some church policies. For example, the language needs to 'win around' people if it is to have popular support. Spending money on bilingual signage may not be the best way to do that. Sludge's comments are very common in Cardiff.

Sometimes less is more and 'shoving things down peoples throats' (not my words) isn't always the best thing to do.

Personally I have no issue at all with bilingual general information as it's cheaper than an opt out system and tends to lead to more concise communication (ie, you keep it to one side of paper, so the Welsh/English is reversible).

One thing I would change is the requirement for kids to study Welsh until 16. I think after 14 it should be optional, by which time you have gained an awareness of the cultural and linguistic elements of the language but you are unlikely to become fluent in it compared to kids at Welsh language schools and it does impact upon other subjects given there are only so many hours in the day. I'm a big believer in learning foreign languages (ich kann Deutsche sprechen...) and I don't want us to fall further behind on that.

Anecdotally I think that policy does build some resentment towards the language, including amongst young people 'made' to learn it.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

In defence of Sludge...

And bearing in mind I haven't read everything here.

But it is possible to be critical of some pro-welsh language policies and that not mean you don't support the language. For example, the language needs to 'win around' people if it is to have popular support. Spending money on bilingual signage may not be the best way to do that. Sludge's comments are very common in Cardiff.

Sometimes less is more and 'shoving things down peoples throats' (not my words) isn't always the best thing to do.

Personally I have no issue at all with bilingual general information as it's cheaper than an opt out system and tends to lead to more concise communication (ie, you keep it to one side of paper, so the Welsh/English is reversible).

One thing I would change is the requirement for kids to study Welsh until 16. I think after 14 it should be optional, by which time you have gained an awareness of the cultural and linguistic elements of the language but you are unlikely to become fluent in it compared to kids at Welsh language schools and it does impact upon other subjects given there are only so many hours in the day.

Anecdotally I think that policy does build some resentment towards the language, including amongst young people 'made' to learn it.

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I had 1 hour of Welsh a week after 14

My daughter is 15 and gets the same one whole hour a week.

duplicate post

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

I'm not disputing if it happened or not, but doesn't this sound like one of them urban myths you read online?!

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It was in the eggo or Western Mail

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Originally Posted by bobh

It was in the eggo or Western Mail

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Yeah I've got teeny recollections of the story myself so wasn't trying to dispute it was reported somehow..just saying it sounds like one of them types of stories you hear repeated down the pub etc.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

No

I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .

I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.

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Are you of the same opinion about the incurred costs and the obvious waste of time in providing language platforms for say Somali, Arabic, Aramaic, perhaps even Ukranian on its way etc ?

Genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Are you of the same opinion about the incurred costs and the obvious waste of time in providing language platforms for say Somali, Arabic, Aramaic, perhaps even Ukranian on its way etc ?

Genuinely curious.

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The reason why in a city like cardiff that multi language information is provided because in many immigrant communities the population , especially amongst the elderly , speaks very little English.

In Cardiff is there a elderly population of Welsh speakers that cannot understand English and need these bilingual forms ?

I very much doubt it .

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

In defence of Sludge...

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here he is again, defending the tories :hehe:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The reason why in a city like cardiff that multi language information is provided because in many immigrant communities the population , especially amongst the elderly , speaks very little English.

In Cardiff is there a elderly population of Welsh speakers that cannot understand English and need these bilingual forms ?

I very much doubt it .

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I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

here he is again, defending the tories :hehe:

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haha :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I think the point you make that "Welsh will never die now" is completely incorrect.

without significant efforts to keep it going it could easily die out within a few generations.
it is held up as a model of how to maintain a minority language by many countries.

there are languages in China with tens of millions of speakers that you've never heard of, that are dying out rapidly because the Chinese government want mandarin to be the only language

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Do you think Cardiff County Council providing a call line in English and Welsh is a significant step in preserving the Welsh language ?

I don't

Spend the money on a Welsh language festival in Cardiff every summer for example

Who wants English , or Indeed Welsh to be the only language ?

That's clearly not what the critics of bilingual Council forms is about

Welsh is in a good state these days , better than I can remember . Do people think the council spending money on language classes for the many is a better use of resources ?

Or is anyone who suggests that a goose stepping anti Welsh nazi ?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?

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I bet you most of them fill it in in English

My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .

It's box ticking

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I bet you most of them fill it in in English

My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .

It's box ticking

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Can't think why she left you with your open minded attitude to life?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?

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Never that many, less than 5% of the population isn’t it? Know quite a few parents who send their kids to Welsh primary but none of them speak any Welsh….

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I bet you most of them fill it in in English

My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .

It's box ticking

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This is such an unbelievably arrogant attitude to have, it's not box ticking if you prefer to fill it in in your first language. Who the hell do you think you are?

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Originally Posted by willo1927

Can't think why she left you with your open minded attitude to life?

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It's because he's a tory. He's let it slip in this thread.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

This is such an unbelievably arrogant attitude to have, it's not box ticking if you prefer to fill it in in your first language. Who the hell do you think you are?

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Whoa now. You keep that violence in check sonny.

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Originally Posted by goats

Never that many, less than 5% of the population isn’t it? Know quite a few parents who send their kids to Welsh primary but none of them speak any Welsh….

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According to the last census 11.1% are fluent in Welsh.

I'd be interested to know the percentages of those that speak Somali, Arabic etc. so Sludge can support his case that providing a Welsh language platform is a waste of time and money when comparing the absolute need for the provision of other languages to support some communities within Cardiff.