Mick Lynch RMT Gen Sec

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Where exactly is the ladder when you're a cleaner? What is the career progression?

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well, if you're a window cleaner, the ladder is right in front of you :biggrin:

Being a cleaner, you could start your own business, although that is not for everyone.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

In front of you how are you going to do the upstairs windows?

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beat me to it

:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Where exactly is the ladder when you're a cleaner? What is the career progression?

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If you can clean you can deal directly with the customers and cut out the cleaning firm, I came across someone like that cleaning the caravans in Porthcawl, she was very welll paid.

Failing that work hard and work towards becoming a supervisor or manager, or go into a different area of work, if you are not earning enough thats what you'll have to do?

Bewildered as to why people would attempt to form an argument that anyone in full time employment does not deserve pay that is enough to live off from without government handouts.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

well, if you're a window cleaner, the ladder is right in front of you :biggrin:

Being a cleaner, you could start your own business, although that is not for everyone.

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With what money? As you're a cleaner on minimum wage.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

If you can clean you can deal directly with the customers and cut out the cleaning firm, I came across someone like that cleaning the caravans in Porthcawl, she was very welll paid.

Failing that work hard and work towards becoming a supervisor or manager, or go into a different area of work, if you are not earning enough thats what you'll have to do?

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:hehe: You are completely deluded. These people need to be paid a decent ****ing wage. You can't start a business when you're on minimum wage. You can't live on minimum wage so how are you going to save to start your own company. Why are we in a situation where we are attacking the most vulnerable people in society, so the rich can get richer and richer?

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

:hehe: You are completely deluded. These people need to be paid a decent ****ing wage. You can't start a business when you're on minimum wage. You can't live on minimum wage so how are you going to save to start your own company. Why are we in a situation where we are attacking the most vulnerable people in society, so the rich can get richer and richer?

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This woman was working for a firm cleaning the vans, chatted to the people in the office and said can I clean the vans for you, they said yes if you like £x per van, she said great i'll do 20 or whatever, she didn't need any cash start up, just iniiative.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

This woman was working for a firm cleaning the vans, chatted to the people in the office and said can I clean the vans for you, they said yes if you like £x per van, she said great i'll do 20 or whatever, she didn't need any cash start up, just iniiative.

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The firm didn't have contract with the cleaning company she worked for?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Of course, but you're being very selective with the facts you choose to use.

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Because there was a specific point made that that disproved. I agree, statistics can be used anyway. Perhaps we should all recognise that and not make such hyperbolic or black and white statements? That would be a great thing!

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

This woman was working for a firm cleaning the vans, chatted to the people in the office and said can I clean the vans for you, they said yes if you like £x per van, she said great i'll do 20 or whatever, she didn't need any cash start up, just iniiative.

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People need to clean the train stations though. So why should they get paid sod all to do so? That's one example, which is good on her. Most cleaners can't go on their own though. It isn't feasible.

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Originally Posted by lardy

The firm didn't have contract with the cleaning company she worked for?

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And this?

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

With what money? As you're a cleaner on minimum wage.

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Given the plethora of owner managed cleaning companies out there, it must be possible

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Originally Posted by SuisseBluebird

Bewildered as to why people would attempt to form an argument that anyone in full time employment does not deserve pay that is enough to live off from without government handouts.

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Whilst the right laud the reduction in benefits being paid as a result of job creation and left wax lyrical about how using the benefits system creates wealth equality, both sides really cannot grasp that in one of the richest nations in world, both arguments are wrong.

The minimum wage is anything but. It may work for teenagers and young 20 somethings living with their parents, but in the real world, all employers should strive to pay at least the living wage as a bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Given the plethora of owner managed cleaning companies out there, it must be possible

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Given there is already a plethora, don't you think the market might be a bit saturated?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Whilst the right laud the reduction in benefits being paid as a result of job creation and left wax lyrical about how using the benefits system creates wealth equality, both sides really cannot grasp that in one of the richest nations in world, both arguments are wrong.

The minimum wage is anything but. It may work for teenagers and young 20 somethings living with their parents, but in the real world, all employers should strive to pay at least the living wage as a bare minimum.

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So why are you arguing against people getting a decent wage in other comments?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

It is only in the past 12 years that interest rates have been as low as they are. Interest rates historically were around 7-10%, on occasions rising to 15%. It is accepted that housing is the single biggest cost, so I can't see how interest rates being a fraction of what they were back then has made the situation as bad today as you are alluding to.

You need to move away from the Thatcherite policy of homeownership that you favour. Whilst home ownership is nice to have, take a leaf out of our continental cousin's playbook where renting is so much more the norm.

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I have said that in other threads that I am more than happy to rent for my whole life however a mortgage would lower my outgoings and provide something at the end, I earn enough to budget and pay my rent but I've not enough wage+deposit to get a mortgage. I don't think my situation is close to unique, the whole housing market is a trap.

My lease expires in September and I am waiting to see how much they try and up it.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

And this?

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I think they must have used various small cleaning firms?

She's an example of someone who was on her uppers but got out of poverty by spotting an opportunity, I appreciate not everyone has ambition and inititve, some would prefer to blame the government and would prefer to tax higher earners more and more.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

It is only in the past 12 years that interest rates have been as low as they are. Interest rates historically were around 7-10%, on occasions rising to 15%. It is accepted that housing is the single biggest cost, so I can't see how interest rates being a fraction of what they were back then has made the situation as bad today as you are alluding to.

You need to move away from the Thatcherite policy of homeownership that you favour. Whilst home ownership is nice to have, take a leaf out of our continental cousin's playbook where renting is so much more the norm.

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I wonder why young people can't afford to buy houses?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-average-wages

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I think they must have used various small cleaning firms?

She's an example of someone who was on her uppers but got out of poverty by spotting an opportunity, I appreciate not everyone has ambition and inititve, some would prefer to blame the government and would prefer to tax higher earners more and more.

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Train stations need to be cleaned. There are many cleaners that need to clean them. Why should they not be paid a decent wage for doing a job that needs to be done? If they weren't needed, they wouldn't be employed. For every person that's "worked hard" to get to where there are, there will be many others who have failed. 60% of new businesses fail in their first 3 years.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I think they must have used various small cleaning firms?

She's an example of someone who was on her uppers but got out of poverty by spotting an opportunity, I appreciate not everyone has ambition and inititve, some would prefer to blame the government and would prefer to tax higher earners more and more.

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Good for her but I think it's unusual for a contractor for Company A to just take Company A's work with Company B by simply asking for it.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

I wonder why young people can't afford to buy houses?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-average-wages

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It's because older people have used them for investment purposes, they can outbid youngsters and drive the price up, this should be looked at by every UK Government and should be addressed. It's been good for them and bad for their children, they will go down this year or next though.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I have said that in other threads that I am more than happy to rent for my whole life however a mortgage would lower my outgoings and provide something at the end, I earn enough to budget and pay my rent but I've not enough wage+deposit to get a mortgage. I don't think my situation is close to unique, the whole housing market is a trap.

My lease expires in September and I am waiting to see how much they try and up it.

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I've never really understood how someone who can pay £x per annum for rent is not deemed credit worthy enough to secure a mortgage that costs the same. If this government were truly serious about home ownership, then why not legislate that once you have proved your credit worthiness by renting for say 12 months or 2 years, mortgage companies have to give you a 100% mortgage which costs the same as the rent you paid.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

This woman was working for a firm cleaning the vans, chatted to the people in the office and said can I clean the vans for you, they said yes if you like £x per van, she said great i'll do 20 or whatever, she didn't need any cash start up, just iniiative.

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This is a bit of an oversimplification. For some people at the low end of the pay scale having a regular, secure income is essential. They may have initiative but they also have to balance risks as they have financial commitments and responsibilities but may not have savings. Working for yourself can pose challenges with intermittent gaps in work and also suppliers paying late. It's not really as straightforward as just telling people to use their initiative and go it alone.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Good for her but I think it's unusual for a contractor for Company A to just take Company A's work with Company B by simply asking for it.

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Yes, most companies wouldn't touch that with a barge pole

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Originally Posted by lardy

Good for her but I think it's unusual for a contractor for Company A to just take Company A's work with Company B by simply asking for it.

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In fairness I would agree it's true, but not an every day situation, maybe it's harder to get cleaners in Porthcawl with loads of caravans needing cleaning and an old population?

The point is people can get on if they really want to, in the past their have been employment gaps with well paid vacancies Plumbers, HGV drivers, Train drivers, and they'll come again, so people need to look out for them and try and find ways to earn more money.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

I wonder why young people can't afford to buy houses?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-average-wages

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oh make no mistake, I agree that house prices have outpaced inflation. My point was that its not all as bleak as people think, because the cost of borrowing has reduced by as much as a quarter. In 1970 a £50k house would have cost you around £5k per annum in interest, whereas the same £200k house today would cost you say £8-10k, so almost double. Ergo in real terms the interest charge today forms a lower percentage of an individuals income, given pay has more than doubled in the last 50 years.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

This is a bit of an oversimplification. For some people at the low end of the pay scale having a regular, secure income is essential. They may have initiative but they also have to balance risks as they have financial commitments and responsibilities but may not have savings. Working for yourself can pose challenges with intermittent gaps in work and also suppliers paying late. It's not really as straightforward as just telling people to use their initiative and go it alone.

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its no wonder 60% of businesses fail in the first 3 years :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It's because older people have used them for investment purposes, they can outbid youngsters and drive the price up, this should be looked at by every UK Government and should be addressed. It's been good for them and bad for their children, they will go down this year or next though.

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I can almost guarantee it will never go down to a level where it is affordable for young people.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

This is a bit of an oversimplification. For some people at the low end of the pay scale having a regular, secure income is essential. They may have initiative but they also have to balance risks as they have financial commitments and responsibilities but may not have savings. Working for yourself can pose challenges with intermittent gaps in work and also suppliers paying late. It's not really as straightforward as just telling people to use their initiative and go it alone.

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True good point its definately not for everyone, I think most people need to take risks though, most of the very wealthy have taken the greatest risks, if you are risk averse, it can keep you down.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

I can almost guarantee it will never go down to a level where it is affordable for young people.

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Unfortunately I think you are right, it would take massive changes, supply and demand there are far too many people trying to buy every single house that comes on the market. If the population in the country continues to increase it can only make it worse.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

True good point its definately not for everyone, I think most people need to take risks though, most of the very wealthy have taken the greatest risks, if you are risk averse, it can keep you down.

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But you can't take risks if you have no money. If you don't have guaranteed income, you can't pay for food or rent/mortgage and very quickly, you are homeless and then you can't get a job.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Unfortunately I think you are right, it would take massive changes, supply and demand there are far too many people trying to buy every single house that comes on the market. If the population in the country continues to increase it can only make it worse.

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It won't continue to increase forever

Many industrialised nations are going to start to see population declines over the next century, starting with Japan.
It will bring its own set of challenges.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

True good point its definately not for everyone, I think most people need to take risks though, most of the very wealthy have taken the greatest risks, if you are risk averse, it can keep you down.

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Survivorship bias.

Many of the wealthy take big risks and won, what you don't see is the people who took the risks and lost.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

But you can't take risks if you have no money. If you don't have guaranteed income, you can't pay for food or rent/mortgage and very quickly, you are homeless and then you can't get a job.

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Partly agree, ideally you try and do it before you get in that position, but once you there you may have take some risks and change jobs to one with better prospects, the alternative is stay as you are, I appreciate it's not easy.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Survivorship bias.

Many of the wealthy take big risks and won, what you don't see is the people who took the risks and lost.

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Yep it's not a guarantee!

Following this post if theres one tip I would give is for anyone who's kids are about to take their GCSE choices and A levels, sit them down go on google and see what jobs pay what, if they can select the right subjects and focus at that age it will give them a far greater chance.

The same with university, for example if an optician pays well, you can plot the path from an early age to make sure they do a degree that will almost guarantee a job rather than a generic one. There is nothing worse that studying for 16 years and realising your degree won't get you any better job than leaving school at sixteen.

If your kids aren't academic look for a trade or apprentiship, don't just let them do whatever they want with no guidence, it's probably the last time they will listen to you if your lucky, and they already don't listen to you lol

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Partly agree, ideally you try and do it before you get in that position, but once you there you may have take some risks and change jobs to one with better prospects, the alternative is stay as you are, I appreciate it's not easy.

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Most people in these jobs are never out of that position. That’s the point.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Yep it's not a guarantee!

Following this post if theres one tip I would give is for anyone who's kids are about to take their GCSE choices and A levels, sit them down go on google and see what jobs pay what, if they can select the right subjects and focus at that age it will give them a far greater chance.

The same with university, for example if an optician pays well, you can plot the path from an early age to make sure they do a degree that will almost guarantee a job rather than a generic one. There is nothing worse that studying for 16 years and realising your degree won't get you any better job than leaving school at sixteen.

If your kids aren't academic look for a trade or apprentiship, don't just let them do whatever they want with no guidence, it's probably the last time they will listen to you if your lucky, and they already don't listen to you lol

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Good luck finding a trade or apprenticeship :hehe:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

True good point its definately not for everyone, I think most people need to take risks though, most of the very wealthy have taken the greatest risks, if you are risk averse, it can keep you down.

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Yes, but the very wealthy may be risking money they can afford to lose. People on the breadline may be risking their home, ability to pay bills, feed their kids etc. There's more to it than just saying take risks if you want to improve your lot.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

In fairness I would agree it's true, but not an every day situation, maybe it's harder to get cleaners in Porthcawl with loads of caravans needing cleaning and an old population?

The point is people can get on if they really want to, in the past their have been employment gaps with well paid vacancies Plumbers, HGV drivers, Train drivers, and they'll come again, so people need to look out for them and try and find ways to earn more money.

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How does a person train to be a plumber which is a minimum of three years with a placement, and in doing so, have to take time off work to do so, putting themselves in further poverty and debt. Maybe the government should give them 90 grand for the three years while they train in whatever it is that they want to do in order to improve their standing in life. Sadly, that money would have to be found somewhere, Tax increase maybe, although that would make us all poorer while these people prosper. It's a conundrum, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

True good point its definately not for everyone, I think most people need to take risks though, most of the very wealthy have taken the greatest risks, if you are risk averse, it can keep you down.

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Why on Earth should someone be disadvantaged for being risk averse? Some would call it a virtue. Just how many gamblers have been left penniless and desolate over the years?