Fascism?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And still no one answers my question.

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More importantly, how did David Kesslers werewolf get out of Jenny Agutters flat?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

More importantly, how did David Kesslers werewolf get out of Jenny Agutters flat?

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No...because she was a flatist!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not disappeared but had other things to do and unwilling to feed some strands of this thread. However (and this will be a mistake):

Lither (or Slither or Hitler) - you are either a determined WUM or (as you appear) a racist, white nationalist and a neo-Nazi. Like your co-thinkers in the USA (from the KKK to the Proud Boys) you also tick the boxes of Fox endorsed conspiracy theories, support for an authoritarian Russian mafia-police state, and a dollop of antisemitism. The only surprises are that you don't yet appear to be a Zionist (maybe that is more an evangelical Protestant view than Catholic?) and you have some confused distinction in your head about significant differences between Italian and German fascism. There were differences of course, but not significant. Same ideology. And your hero Oswald Moseley was a close friend of Hitler - he married Diana Mitford (another Nazi like her sister Unity) in Goebel's home with Hitler as guest of honour. We would have been on opposite sides at Cable Street. You crack on with reading your scumbag 'fascist philosophers' and avoiding questions about what you disagree with in the writings of their critics. I won't be joining you.

James - I have never worn a CCCP top in my life. In my late teens and twenties I described myself as a communist - but not of the Stalinist or Maoist varieties. The people who thought like me in earlier decades were mostly murdered by Stalin. There has never been a communist paradise anywhere in the world. There have been liberation movements and governments that struggled to transform their societies and economies in the face of blockades and military threats - often with diplomatic and trade ties to the Soviet Union as the only way to survive. Of all the examples across Latin America, North Africa and the Far East, in my opinion Cuba was the most interesting and deserving of support. That is despite harsh repression of dissent (and harsher of sabotage) and an economy that barely survived the US blockade. They got many things wrong - inevitably - but for over 40 years transformed education, health, agriculture and sent out doctors and engineers across the global south to help others. But I don't call myself a communist any more. I still hold some of the same views I did in my twenties, but in practice I have been an active trades unionist and a socialist in the social democratic mainstream for most of my life. I was never a 'supporter' of the Soviet Union - although clearly I believe in collectivism.

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Cheers for answering..fair play. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And still no one answers my question.

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Whats the question? Is it "when were we more on the road to fascism than now?" I can't speak from experience as I was only born in the 1980s, but the question is a bit skewed really.

It's like asking "if not now, then when were you closest to beating your wife?" The answer quite feasibly can be never.

I dont think the UK has ever been on the road to authoritarianism for hundreds of years. Of course, in the 1920s and 1930s (an into the 70s too) much of the world was tempted by extreme examples of the left and right but Britain never was. What was the best any far right or far left party has ever achieved in the UK? A handful of seats over a 30 year period? The National Front never got more than 0.6% of the vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(UK)

I wasn't around, but I would assume the closest the UK was to fascism was the 1950s during red scares and wars in Korea etc and when there was far more open racism towards newly arriving immigrants. If anything, we were closer in the early naughties with the BNP on the rise and a feeling of lost control over immigration etc.

But no, I dont think this country has ever been remotely far down the road to fascism, and I am proud to say it isn't so now either.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Whats the question? Is it "when were we more on the road to fascism than now?" I can't speak from experience as I was only born in the 1980s, but the question is a bit skewed really.

It's like asking "if not now, then when were you closest to beating your wife?" The answer quite feasibly can be never.

I dont think the UK has ever been on the road to authoritarianism for hundreds of years. Of course, in the 1920s and 1930s (an into the 70s too) much of the world was tempted by extreme examples of the left and right but Britain never was. What was the best any far right or far left party has ever achieved in the UK? A handful of seats over a 30 year period? The National Front never got more than 0.6% of the vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(UK)

I wasn't around, but I would assume the closest the UK was to fascism was the 1950s during red scares and wars in Korea etc and when there was far more open racism towards newly arriving immigrants. If anything, we were closer in the early naughties with the BNP on the rise and a feeling of lost control over immigration etc.

But no, I dont think this country has ever been remotely far down the road to fascism, and I am proud to say it isn't so now either.

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In my view, Communism has never been too much of a factor in Western Europe and the USA since the thirties when it enjoyed something of a high in the years leading up to the Second World War. One of the reasons for this was the proliferation of "strong man" , nationalist leaders influential countries like Germany, Italy and Spain who all ricked many of the fourteen boxes in that article that has been posted in this thread. In Britain, Oswald Mosely is surely the most famous British fascist of the last hundred years and, undoubtedly, the peak of his popularity was in the 1930s.

Oswald was a Conservative and Labour MP in the 1920s and, apparently, switched parties quite often before he formed the British Union of Fascists. This tends to support the view expressed in this thread that you can have fascism on the political right and left - I accept that, but I don't get why it needed to be raised in the first place in this thread, unless it was to try to argue that my OP asking about Fascism on the right was somehow precluded by the fact that you can have Fascism on the left as well.

Given that Communism and Fascism (as practised by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco) was more prevalent in Western Europe in the thirties and the decade ended in a World War, it has always seemed the most traumatic decade of the last century to me, but the last ten years has seen the election of nationalistic Governments with strong man leaders in former Soviet countries, other European countries (e.g. Turkey), Brazil and the USA, while, although Putin's Russia hardy seems Communist to me, it has become more expansionist and so with the potential flashpoints we have in Taiwan, Ukraine and the middle east, the threat of another World War seems as strong currently as it has been since the last thirties.

I'd say the leaders of some of the countries I mention above could legitimately be called Fascists, but, as far as the UK is concerned, although I'm sure our soon to be former PM would have loved to have been thought of as a strong man leader, he was too lazy, too much of a clown and too indecisive to be one in real life. However, he and an awful lot of Conservative MPs have backed the prorogation of Parliament which was found to be illegal and articles like these

https://www.dazeddigital.com/politic...g-the-pandemic

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...no-punishment/

show a disregard for rules which has resulted in law breaking in some cases which points to the "rules don't apply to us" type criticism that was often aimed at the Johnson and members of his Government.

This brings me back to the first post in this thread where Johnson loyalists and, to a degree the new Prime Minister in waiting are advocating that an enquiry into conduct which could see Johnson have to face a by election if it is found that he misled Parliament (it's pretty clear that, willingly or otherwise, he did) should be shelved for reasons which range from it's a witch hunt to hasn't the poor man suffered enough. More menacingly, the Daily Mail and the likes of Dorries, Rees-Mogg and Lord :hehe: Goldsmith are putting pressure on Tory members of the relevant Select Committee (and one who has resigned from said Committee) to step down rather than carry out the task they are duty bound to.

I mentioned before that some of the posts in this thread strike me as somewhat complacent - Fascism is alive and well in the world today and we have a Government that is closer to being fascist than any other in my life. Okay, there is a question of degree as to how close they are, but they're closer than any Government we've had going back to Wilson's first one in the sixties (the first one that I had a degree of political awareness about) and I don't see that changing under "strong woman" Truss.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

In my view, Communism has never been too much of a factor in Western Europe and the USA since the thirties when it enjoyed something of a high in the years leading up to the Second World War. One of the reasons for this was the proliferation of "strong man" , nationalist leaders influential countries like Germany, Italy and Spain who all ricked many of the fourteen boxes in that article that has been posted in this thread. In Britain, Oswald Mosely is surely the most famous British fascist of the last hundred years and, undoubtedly, the peak of his popularity was in the 1930s.

Oswald was a Conservative and Labour MP in the 1920s and, apparently, switched parties quite often before he formed the British Union of Fascists. This tends to support the view expressed in this thread that you can have fascism on the political right and left - I accept that, but I don't get why it needed to be raised in the first place in this thread, unless it was to try to argue that my OP asking about Fascism on the right was somehow precluded by the fact that you can have Fascism on the left as well.

Given that Communism and Fascism (as practised by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco) was more prevalent in Western Europe in the thirties and the decade ended in a World War, it has always seemed the most traumatic decade of the last century to me, but the last ten years has seen the election of nationalistic Governments with strong man leaders in former Soviet countries, other European countries (e.g. Turkey), Brazil and the USA, while, although Putin's Russia hardy seems Communist to me, it has become more expansionist and so with the potential flashpoints we have in Taiwan, Ukraine and the middle east, the threat of another World War seems as strong currently as it has been since the last thirties.

I'd say the leaders of some of the countries I mention above could legitimately be called Fascists, but, as far as the UK is concerned, although I'm sure our soon to be former PM would have loved to have been thought of as a strong man leader, he was too lazy, too much of a clown and too indecisive to be one in real life. However, he and an awful lot of Conservative MPs have backed the prorogation of Parliament which was found to be illegal and articles like these

https://www.dazeddigital.com/politic...g-the-pandemic

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...no-punishment/

show a disregard for rules which has resulted in law breaking in some cases which points to the "rules don't apply to us" type criticism that was often aimed at the Johnson and members of his Government.

This brings me back to the first post in this thread where Johnson loyalists and, to a degree the new Prime Minister in waiting are advocating that an enquiry into conduct which could see Johnson have to face a by election if it is found that he misled Parliament (it's pretty clear that, willingly or otherwise, he did) should be shelved for reasons which range from it's a witch hunt to hasn't the poor man suffered enough. More menacingly, the Daily Mail and the likes of Dorries, Rees-Mogg and Lord :hehe: Goldsmith are putting pressure on Tory members of the relevant Select Committee (and one who has resigned from said Committee) to step down rather than carry out the task they are duty bound to.

I mentioned before that some of the posts in this thread strike me as somewhat complacent - Fascism is alive and well in the world today and we have a Government that is closer to being fascist than any other in my life. Okay, there is a question of degree as to how close they are, but they're closer than any Government we've had going back to Wilson's first one in the sixties (the first one that I had a degree of political awareness about) and I don't see that changing under "strong woman" Truss.

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Bob's understanding of Fascism comes from hysterical left wing activists. He hasn't read ONE National Socialist/Fascist intellectual for himself.

Point six on the fascism list

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...bc-news-output

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

Bob's understanding of Fascism comes from hysterical left wing activists. He hasn't read ONE National Socialist/Fascist intellectual for himself.

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Jesus christ you don't need to have read Oswald Mosley to know what fascism is.

It's like saying you can't know what a car is because you've not read an instruction manual by Henry Ford from the 1920s. You keep going back to this point because you have nothing else.

This forum is full to the brim of old clueless racist bootlicking right wing nutjobs. Just go to the other Cardiff forum where you'd feel more at home.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Jesus christ you don't need to have read Oswald Mosley to know what fascism is.

It's like saying you can't know what a car is because you've not read an instruction manual by Henry Ford from the 1920s. You keep going back to this point because you have nothing else.

This forum is full to the brim of old clueless racist bootlicking right wing nutjobs. Just go to the other Cardiff forum where you'd feel more at home.

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What a poor analogy and you no doubt have little clue about genuine Fascism. If you want to know about Fascism read Fascist theorists not hysterical types like Owen Jones. It's not complicated.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Point six on the fascism list

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...bc-news-output

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Jesus Christ Bob, Emily Maitlis paranoia is now the goto source for what Fascism is...

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Originally Posted by Doucas

This forum is full to the brim of old clueless racist bootlicking right wing nutjobs. Just go to the other Cardiff forum where you'd feel more at home.

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To be fair there are two other Cardiff forums. One fits your description absolutely, the other doesn’t (thankfully).

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Point six on the fascism list

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...bc-news-output

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Does this not rather prove that she had her agenda and biases all the while she was at the BBC?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Does this not rather prove that she had her agenda and biases all the while she was at the BBC?

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Anyone who watched Newsnight could tell she was a raving Marxist. As is Ian Katz, the head of Newsnight. The beeb is Maŕxist to it's core, this is only news worthy because of how rare it is to have a "Conservative" pulling in an impartial direction. The modern Conservative party isn't really that Conservative, it's liberal and have ceded ground in the culture war for years. Bob Wilson hasn't read Fascist intellectuals, i have and the idea that the modern day Conservative party is Fascist is for the birds. It's the stuff of left wing fear mongering from activists on Twitter.

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

Anyone who watched Newsnight could tell she was a raving Marxist. As is Ian Katz, the head of Newsnight. The beeb is Maŕxist to it's core, this is only news worthy because of how rare it is to have a "Conservative" pulling in an impartial direction. The modern Conservative party isn't really that Conservative, it's liberal and have ceded ground in the culture war for years. Bob Wilson hasn't read Fascist intellectuals, i have and the idea that the modern day Conservative party is Fascist is for the birds. It's the stuff of left wing fear mongering from activists on Twitter.

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Are you sure you know what Marxist means? It seems to be a catchall term you use for anyone or anything you don't like.

The idea that the very pro-establishment BBC is marxist to the core is genuinely hilarious.

Yes we know you've read Oswald Mosely's musings and nobody is in the least bit surprised or impressed.
Of course the current Tory parts aren't fascist, but their actions in a lot of areas are quite possibly enabling some future government to take that dark path.

How about we stop throwing around Marxism and Fascism accusations so much? All a bit daft.

The BBC is pretty signed up to most 'identity politics' ways of thinking, and I do query many of it's editorial decisions - I don't think it's reflective of the country. On the other hand, it is neither government nor commercially run, it has a commitment to (a degree of) balance which many countries are envious of and it is generally a reliable source for topics.

I think that Emily Maitlis is completely wrong. She cites her being reprimanded for what was undeniably a political polemic piece, but will ignore things like this, which show the channels flagship debating programme having a 2:1 Remainer bias during years when that was the biggest political debate going.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/0...er-stronghold/

More on that BBC bias btw:
https://iea.org.uk/media/iea-analysi...al-programmes/

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Are you sure you know what Marxist means? It seems to be a catchall term you use for anyone or anything you don't like.

The idea that the very pro-establishment BBC is marxist to the core is genuinely hilarious.

Yes we know you've read Oswald Mosely's musings and nobody is in the least bit surprised or impressed.
Of course the current Tory parts aren't fascist, but their actions in a lot of areas are quite possibly enabling some future government to take that dark path.

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There’s a lot of assumptions being made by people in this thread (including by me I’d guess) that they know what living in a fascist state is like - we don’t and I would argue that we may be closer to it than we suspect.

I’ve said before on here that, in the manner of Rick on the Young Ones, I’d use the word “fascist” to describe those who I suspected of being mildly right of centre, but it was a joke which I grew out of decades ago. Reading Lither’s latest contributions, I can only assume that he’s still using “Marxists” in the same manner from the other side of the political fence.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...aggart-lecture

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...aggart-lecture

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She's just bitter..and trying to prove the BBC doesn't have a middle class, left-wing, liberal bias by writing in Britains foremost middle class left-wing liberal newspaper :hehe:

Essentially, what she said was opinion and it wasn't impartial. She said:

"Dominic Cummings broke the rules. The country can see that but it is shocked the government cannot [and] Boris Johnson has chosen to ignore it. Tonight we consider what the blind loyalty tells us about the inner workings of number 10"

The bit's in Bold are NOT facts. They are her opinion and not backed up by reality. Durham police investigated and he was not charged.

It's no different to someone on the BBC saying Keir Starmer broke the rules but is shocked the Labour party cannot see it etc etc.

If that happened can you imagine the uproar?

The BBC needs to stick to facts and be impartial. It's not hard. She was rightly rebuked. If she wants to air her personal opinion, there are plenty of places for it..and she's found one in the guardian there.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

She's just bitter..and trying to prove the BBC doesn't have a middle class, left-wing, liberal bias by writing in Britains foremost middle class left-wing liberal newspaper :hehe:

Essentially, what she said was opinion and it wasn't impartial. She said:

"Dominic Cummings broke the rules. The country can see that but it is shocked the government cannot [and] Boris Johnson has chosen to ignore it. Tonight we consider what the blind loyalty tells us about the inner workings of number 10"

The bit's in Bold are NOT facts. They are her opinion and not backed up by reality. Durham police investigated and he was not charged.

It's no different to someone on the BBC saying Keir Starmer broke the rules but is shocked the Labour party cannot see it etc etc.

If that happened can you imagine the uproar?

The BBC needs to stick to facts and be impartial. It's not hard. She was rightly rebuked. If she wants to air her personal opinion, there are plenty of places for it..and she's found one in the guardian there.

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What bits that you highlighted in bold we’re proved to be wrong?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

She's just bitter..and trying to prove the BBC doesn't have a middle class, left-wing, liberal bias by writing in Britains foremost middle class left-wing liberal newspaper :hehe:

Essentially, what she said was opinion and it wasn't impartial. She said:

"Dominic Cummings broke the rules. The country can see that but it is shocked the government cannot [and] Boris Johnson has chosen to ignore it. Tonight we consider what the blind loyalty tells us about the inner workings of number 10"

The bit's in Bold are NOT facts. They are her opinion and not backed up by reality. Durham police investigated and he was not charged.

It's no different to someone on the BBC saying Keir Starmer broke the rules but is shocked the Labour party cannot see it etc etc.

If that happened can you imagine the uproar?

The BBC needs to stick to facts and be impartial. It's not hard. She was rightly rebuked. If she wants to air her personal opinion, there are plenty of places for it..and she's found one in the guardian there.

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Completely agree

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Originally Posted by Lither_1927

My name is an anagram of Hitler, there's no denying that, but it wasn't intentional.
Hitler was a National Socialist from what i gather. That's slightly different from fascism.

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This bump is for you, James.

This is not a one-off.

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

This bump is for you, James.

This is not a one-off.

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Yes Tito. You have quoted a random anonymous bloke on an Internet forum to illustrate your argument that the term 'National Socialist' is some kind of 'alt right' term.

I quoted a speech made by Olaf Scholtz, the German Chancellor and member of left of centre Social Democratic Party to illustrate my argument that it is not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-ve-day-speech

Perhaps the lesson here, and one we all should heed is that we shouldn't listen to nutters on the internet so much?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes Tito. You have quoted a random anonymous bloke on an Internet forum to illustrate your argument that the term 'National Socialist' is some kind of 'alt right' term.

I quoted a speech made by Olaf Scholtz, the German Chancellor and member of left of centre Social Democratic Party to illustrate my argument that it is not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-ve-day-speech

Perhaps the lesson here, and one we all should heed is that we shouldn't listen to nutters on the internet so much?

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Yes I have done that. It was to give you an example of something (that you deny exists) being used on this very platform.

It's not "listening to nutters" though, is it? It's pointing out that there is a pattern emerging online of a certain sect trying to fabricate a narrative that the Nazis were socialists and not fascists.

I don't understand why it's a bone of contention that I am bringing attention to this fact.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes Tito. You have quoted a random anonymous bloke on an Internet forum to illustrate your argument that the term 'National Socialist' is some kind of 'alt right' term.

I quoted a speech made by Olaf Scholtz, the German Chancellor and member of left of centre Social Democratic Party to illustrate my argument that it is not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-ve-day-speech

Perhaps the lesson here, and one we all should heed is that we shouldn't listen to nutters on the internet so much?

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Sorry, to clarify one last time: I wasn't pointing out that it's an alt-right term.

I'm pointing out that it's mostly used on social media by the alt/far right to claim that the Nazis were socialists.

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

Sorry, to clarify one last time: I wasn't pointing out that it's an alt-right term.

I'm pointing out that it's mostly used on social media by the alt/far right to claim that the Nazis were socialists.

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👍

Certainly not my intention. National Socialism and Democratic Socialism are two very different things. I would be wholly with you and strongly argue against anyone who suggested otherwise.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

👍

Certainly not my intention. National Socialism and Democratic Socialism are two very different things. I would be wholly with you and strongly argue against anyone who suggested otherwise.

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We've done it again.

All aboard the S.S. Armistice!

Boris was removed like most leaders are , on both sides of the fence , he had served his purpose , sort of got Brexit done , one may argue it was a pigs ear , but it was a better pigs ear than most. The red wall is the issue if that goes the Tories are in trouble , as South of the country is going all NIMBY Left Liberal .

Now the Red Wall voters are back in the eye of the storm with immigration with the latest football leader of the opposition Gary Linkear standing up to the Nazis, now when will the other opposition party ( Labour ) stand up and speak on this matter with a clear action plan as itsits in the bowel of a lot of red wall voters and even Labour ones and some even in good old in red Labour Wales ??? ..

Fascism?? It's not ..politics it is.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Boris was removed like most leaders were on both sides of the fence , he had served his purpose and sort of got Brexit done , one may argue it was a pigs ear , but it was a better pigs ear than most. The red wall is the issue if that goes the Tories ate in trouble as South of the country is going all NIMBY Left Liberal .

Now the Red Wall voters are back in the eye of the storm with immigration and leader of the opposition Gary Linkear standing up the the Nazis, when will the other opposition party , Labour stand up and speak on the matter with a clear action plan that sits in the bowel of a lot of red wall voter and even Labour ones ??? ..

Fascism?? It's not ..politics it is.

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Rambling?? it is, coherent Its not...

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

We've done it again.

All aboard the S.S. Armistice!

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FFS Tito, did you bring the SS into it?!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

FFS Tito, did you bring the SS into it?!

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Perhaps he thought you needed protection from The Squad.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

FFS Tito, did you bring the SS into it?!

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I knew exactly what I was doing :hehe:

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Boris was removed like most leaders are , on both sides of the fence , he had served his purpose , sort of got Brexit done , one may argue it was a pigs ear , but it was a better pigs ear than most. The red wall is the issue if that goes the Tories are in trouble , as South of the country is going all NIMBY Left Liberal .

Now the Red Wall voters are back in the eye of the storm with immigration with the latest football leader of the opposition Gary Linkear standing up to the Nazis, now when will the other opposition party ( Labour ) stand up and speak on this matter with a clear action plan as itsits in the bowel of a lot of red wall voters and even Labour ones and some even in good old in red Labour Wales ??? ..

Fascism?? It's not ..politics it is.

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I. do. not. know. what. this. is.

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

I knew exactly what I was doing :hehe:

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Touche!

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

I. do. not. know. what. this. is.

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Bullingdon Chess. From Pig's Mouth to Pig's ear in three moves

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Bullingdon Chess. From Pig's Mouth to Pig's ear in three moves

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Thanks for that, Cyril. I've just experienced dinner then déjà vu!

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Originally Posted by Tito Fuente

Thanks for that, Cyril. I've just experienced dinner then déjà vu!

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I feel I should trademark it before someone does the history of the Tory Party in the 21st Century!