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Tesla originally said (beginning-mid 2010s) that they would set up the infrastructure so you could just swap batteries. They then said charging points was the way to go. They must have had a reason for doing so. Remember thinking at the time that they'd need to come up with some algorithm to persuade drivers to take "tired" batteries instead of new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five
oops - reply to wrong thread
I’m not surprised this thread is still debated.
As I’ve already said my sister pressured me into taking her Electric Car for the weekend several months ago because she wants me to buy an EV
It a Porsche so why wouldn’t you !!
I honestly couldn’t wait to return it!!
I drove from Swansea to Cobham (Surrey) onto Middlesbrough then back to Swansea.
The first leg of the journey took six hours and I also picked up a fine for overstaying in the services
I got to the services with a range of thirty miles left so needed to charge the car.
Charging takes about an hour or so
Both charging points were occupied and there was another driver waiting to use in front of me
The maximum stay was two hours
I was there just over three.
I appealed the fine which my sister had in her name but to no avail.
So in my own experience I would try and talk anyone thinking of buying an EV not too!!
All of the governments around the world are lying to us
It’s all a massive CON
It’s proven that the Carbon Emissions made during the manufacturing process compared to the production of petrol or diesel engines is three to four times higher
The second hand market isn’t there
Who would buy a ten year old EV??
The batteries deteriorate over time resulting in the owner having to purchase a new battery pack at huge cost
That’s more lithium being mined and more Carbon Emissions
The infrastructure doesn’t exist for the number of Electric Cars on the road
The government wants the entire population to be on public transport/cycling or walking or own an EV as production of petrol and diesel cars are being phased out in a decade
The BritishVolt battery factory as we all saw on tv yesterday has gone bust
We apparently need several of these factories in order to keep up with the production of EV’s
We haven’t got one factory now and the Government are still pressing on with the phasing out of petrol/diesel production in a decade
It’s all insane!!
The cost of buying an EV is much more expensive than a petrol or diesel car
The cost of running it is now according to the AA and RAC greater than petrol or diesel
Guaranteed in a few years EV drivers will be expected to pay road tax as well
So what exactly are the benefits of owning an EV?????
I know it’s the Sun, but it’s as funny as f uck
https://apple.news/AQ_wAX6ftQp6Ro7oqUAwGLA
Tony..tickets secured?Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUETIT
Mel
Autotrader are reporting a 30% drop in new EV sales. The impression is that the target market - those with strong green views, live in detached property, not particularly cost-conscious, is already becoming saturated.
I've never owned a car. have you ever tried walking or riding a bike ?..it is possible not to have a carQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
Wow. Don't think I've ever seen so many misconceptions about EVs in one post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
First of all who drives a mileage like Swansea to Cobham and Middlesbrough and back? It's a very extreme example of a journey that an EV might not be best suited for but ok it's one you had to do on this particular day. Most people will very rarely do a trip like that, if ever. And they certainly wouldn't be doing it without several rest stops, even in an ICE car.
A Porsche Taycan can charge at up to 225k. Not sure about other models but they're all extremely quick charging If you found it taking an hour to charge you were probably using an old Ecotricity charger (now Gridserve) that only goes up to 50kw. Should have gone to a faster one. Pick a site that has more than 2 chargers so you don't have to queue and don't charge beyond 85% as they slow down drastically after that to protect the battery. Quicker to carry on with your journey and charge again when your low.
Maybe governments around the world are lying to us but you seem to think oil companies aren't, because that's where a lot of the disinformation comes from.
Yes the carbon emissions in the manufacturing process are higher but they're reducing all the time. Even now they are offset after 4 years by much lower use of fossil fuel. It's quicker in countries where electricity generation has less fossil fuel involved.
Only a small number of batteries deteriorate to a point where they are unusable, usually due to misuse. Sometimes only individual battery modules have failed so you wouldn't have to replace the whole thing. If you did you'd typically scrap a cheap car at that point, the same as you would in a petrol or diesel car when the engine or gearbox had gone.That's just as commonplace if not more so. BTW batteries are highly recyclable or can be repurposed for home storage use so the scrap value is high.
Who would buy a ten year old EV? No idea as there are very few in existence so far. Mine' s 4 years old and still has a battery capacity higher than the manufacturer's spec so I'm optimistic it'll be good for several years.
'The infrastructure doesn't exist for all the EVs on the road' is a highly debatable point. It's improving all the time. I can charge at home, which is an advantage, but I have no difficulty finding public charging on my regular long trips. I can honestly say I've never had range anxiety.
Purchase cost is certainly higher than for ICE cars especially since our backward thinking government removed the grant, but good quality cheaper models such as the MG4 are beginning to emerge. Also Tesla has begun to cut the price of new models in the US. The UK used market has been inflated for a long time but prices in the last 6 months have dropped to much more sensible levels.
Yes the government wants to phase out ICE cars. Yes they will soon have to pay road tax but that was inevitable. I'm a bit pissed off that they intend to backdate it for existing cars though, when they won't be doing the same for older ICE cars. That's another example of our backward and corrupt government being in the pockets of the oil companies.
Yes the charging costs are now higher in some cases than petrol or diesel but that's only for public charging. It's still far cheaper charging at home. The government could quite easily equalise the price on public chargers by varying taxation but they're not serious about green issues on account of being a bit backward and corrupt. Maintenance costs are much lower.
Yes the British Volt factory has gone bust. A sensible government would have bankrolled such a vital piece of infrastructure. But you know, backward and corrupt etc.
If I've missed anything, let me know.
I didn’t do the journey in a day Eric.
If you read my post I borrowed my sister’s EV for the weekend.
To clarify I was on the fence about purchasing an EV - my sister who leases hers kept banging on about how great they are and was trying to convince me to buy one through the ‘lend’ of her vehicle.
She lives in Swansea by the way - just outside Llansamlet so I had to travel there from Cardiff in order to collect the said vehicle.
Cobham in Surrey was work related that’s why I went there first.
The Saturday I headed up to Boro to visit family I hadn’t seen pre covid.
Return trip on the Sunday.
I strongly agree that you need to plan your journey
I did
What’s frustrating though is pulling into a service station and the charge points are occupied with several cars waiting
I overstayed because I had no option of going over the two hours permitted stay.
Also I found charging points didn’t work
Also there were connectivity issues with the charging point and syncing to the car.
All probably easy for you because you’ve had your car four years.
Can you honestly tell me that you never had range anxiety when you first bought your EV?
Putting on the Air Con and driving in excess of the speed limit- it was a Porsche so I had to put my foot down - all eats into the battery range.
Regardless of who is conning us as to the Carbon Emissions the fact remains that EV’s are producing three to four times more carbon compared to the production of Petrol or diesel counterparts
The fact of the lithium extraction is out there for anyone to look in google land.
What’s not really mentioned is what or where exactly are the disused batteries going to go at the end of their lives?
Land fill - outer space?
That’s a huge problem
I am speaking honestly in order to help others make an informed decision about purchasing an EV based on my own experiences
Nothing i witnessed and experienced will tempt me in the slightest to buy one.
As already said they are too expensive
Tesla’s just dropped their prices which tells you they’re to expensive to begin with.
Overpriced
Infrastructure in its infancy
Second hand value is uncertain
More expensive to run than petrol or diesel
If you live in terraced housing or an apartment block then they’re impractical to charge at home
I fail to see the positives??
Walk
Cycle
But if you do need to drive then I’m afraid EV’s are not on my shopping list in my lifetime
They’re a new technology in their infancy compared to cars that have been around for over a century. They’re not made or priced for the average man yet, the same way home computers in the 80’s weren’t.
I’m sure people in the 1920’s had plenty of negative opinions about cars and how horse and carriages were superior. Guess which one people use to get to work with these days…
I agree Kev
Swansea to Cobham to Boro back to Swansea in a day lol 😂
I’m sure Eric thinks I’m a County Lines drug runner 😆😆
Four times as many emissions? Compared to twenty years of someone using a Diesel engine daily. I doubt that is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
….quick reading online…..they talk about localised contamination, water waste ….stuff like that. I think your info is a little misleading.
Anyhow. That doesn’t excuse people using diesel and petrol engines. Use a bike, public transport.
Stop making the planet unliveable for my daughter and her daughter. Or at least try. Please.
I don't think Kev was batting for you in that post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
I completely agree that it's much easier when you have a bit of experience of driving an EV. In my case I did a fair bit of reading/You Tubing before I bought one so I knew where I was from the word go. It's completely different if you're just hiring or borrowing one for the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
No I've genuinely never had range anxiety. On the odd occasion when I've been too low to get to the charger I plan to go to I just got on the sat nav and found a nearer one. Yes it can be frustrating to find chargers out of order, but apps like Zapp Map will tell you if they are working or not before you waste time going there. I don't agree that the infrastructure is in its infancy.
Your point about uncertain second hand values is interesting. The one thing we do know is that ICE cars will be an obsolete technology in a few years. I don't think you'll be able to give one away as 2030 approaches. It's a bit like trying to flog a Euro 5 diesel car in London now as the ULEZ zone is expanded out to the M25.
There are solutions to charging if you live in a terraced house or apartment. Councils can provide lamp post chargers where people can trickle charge overnight. Destination chargers at supermarkets, pubs, multi storeys etc. often provide (relatively slow) charging at low prices. My local Tesco is cheaper than I'm currently paying at home. I even know one multi storey that still offers free charging. Admittedly that's very rare now.
As I mentioned in my first reply, it's unusual to have to replace an entire battery. The average lifespan of a petrol or diesel car in the UK is 9.7 years. EV batteries are warranted for at least 7 and even if you did have one that was uneconomic to repair it would never be put in landfill. Typically, they would be repurposed for home energy storage, or recycled for the valuable contents, particularly the lithium and cobalt.
Reasons to buy one? Clean air and lower carbon emissions are enough for me but there are others: cheaper to run except in very specific circumstances, no congestion charging in big cities and much nicer to drive especially in traffic. Also, in a few years you won't have a choice unless they invent something else.
Thanks for your courteous response Eric
I still wouldn’t buy one though
As for the future a good friend is convinced it’s water -hydrogen to be precise
He’s very convincing and it’s an interesting topic but I’m not sure just how the oil and electric companies will react to this technology
I’m sure it will be debated on here at some point 🤔
Yeah I’m confused on which bit he agrees with me hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by lardy
a mate of mine was working for a very famous UK company that were developing hydrogen fuel cells back 15 or 20 years ago, he said they started to also look into smaller ones that could power a car but they said that they abandoned that because in the event of a crash they would leave a small crater in the roadQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
We don’t want any more potholes than we already have lol 😂
I think they've pretty much given up on hydrogen powered road vehicles now, certainly in the UK. Toyota did have a production model but it's much dearer even than EVs and there are fewer than 10 places you can refuel them.
About 10 years ago ( might have been slightly more than that ) I saw a demo on Hydrogen fuel cells in Disney world ( yes really ) and it was billed a the green future, California were adapting it as the green future, building the filling pumps and spending big, It interested me and I did a fair bit of reading about it, it looked the real deal, as time has gone by, its slowly died and EV's are now the answer ( even in LA ) now they still have the filling pumps, but people just haven't gone down the route of the H20, last time I returned to this subject Toyota were making a H20 car it did 300 mile per fillQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
My mate makes a compelling argument as to Hydrogen in the future
It won’t happen in our lifetimes but with the advancement of technology and the abundance of water I’m sure he’s right. 🤔
A sobering thought: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.htmlght.....
Some interesting info and thoughts in this thread. Also very informative. My nephew charges up his electric car from electricity generated from his solar panels and stored in his powerwall. He has not paid directly for charging up the car since he has had it. He appears to be quite happy.
I did see that online
Wasn’t on the mainstream news?
Bad publicity for the manufacturers 🫣
Apparently in the UK the majority of the electricity entering the national grid from a single energy source is natural gas. Natural gas is a largely imported fossil fuel and can emit harmful GHGs such as carbon dioxide (CO2) when burned to generate electricity.
:hehe:
And there’s more
https://apple.news/AB1bmRjz2Tu6g_m-QGXbJ5A
That’s just a minor issue Titty 🫣
I'm sure people moaned when they changed from horse and cart too.
Miserable old bastards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dembethewarrior
Put a lot of horses out of a job and severely hit the rhubarb crop!!!!!!!
Rhubarb pie and custard.Quote:
Originally Posted by splott parker
You know what else emits harmful GHGs such as carbon dioxide (CO2) when burned?Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Petrol & diesel.
I wonder which emits more GHGs from running a personal vehicle - the electricity that has been absorbed from the national grid that's required to charge an EV for each use or burning petrol/diesel throughout the use of a gas guzzler?
Answers on postcard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito Fuente
I wonder how they are going to dispose of all these electric batteries , I know the car I was looking at had a battery weight of 500kg, which put me off, also the extra environment impact of increased tyre wear ( ignoring brake pads etc ) and the increased mileage ( and indirect charging costs ) detouring to charging areas when motorway driving.
Let’s also not forgetting the slave labour and black market that’s emerging from the Cobalt industry. Each to their own thought as you say.
Yes I was watching a documentary on the Children being used to mine Lithium in Angola
It didn’t make happy viewing 🙁🙁
Kids should be at school 🤬Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysideup
Never had one and am a long way off being able to afford one, but it's clearly the future someday. But cold weather knocks a third off the range? That's pretty useless isn't it?
Listen! we all know that most of you petrol pervs will never give up your Ford Capri Gtx. But its the future so get used to it.
I can't pretend that I know much about this subject at all so you'll have to help me out.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Is "extra environment impact of increased tyre wear ( ignoring brake pads etc ) and the increased mileage ( and indirect charging costs ) detouring to charging areas when motorway driving " more or less of an environmental impact than burning fossil fuels at source when using a petrol diesel vehicle?
Worth noting that ev brakes a) regenerate energy and b) need replacing less regularly. Tyres: yeah I suspect they do wear more quickly than ICE due to the extra weight so that is probably fair. EVs do have specific tyres (or at least mine does) which might be designed to mitigate this (dunno) but I suspect that yes they wear out a bit more quickly than tyres on an ICE. but as you say: how does it stack against the other environmental factors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito Fuente
This level of environmental concern might be genuine of course, but if it is it is then it's hard to reconcile worrying about EV break pads with any form of car ownership, and certainly with using a car to travel the long distances at which recharging on motorways would require.
But to put his mind at ease on some other points:
EV batteries are recycled and reused in things like domestic storage batteries. They are bloody expensive, I think they look to squeeze every minute of useful life out of them.
EV chargers are located at motorway service stations so the extra fraction of a mile to detour when on the motorway is a non issue
Yes EV chargers at service stations are expensive, just as petrol is. You use it if you have to, which - given modern EV ranges - wouldnt be that often for many people. Overall assuming you can charge at home, the price per mile for EV should be a lot lower than ICE. I have a large, heavy, inefficient EV. My average price per mile is a little under 4p which is more than the 2.5p when I first got it and electricity prices were lower, but still way cheaper than any ICE I've ever had.
Obviously you have extreme cases of people driving from Cardiff to Newcastle and back on a daily basis or whatever but EV isnt really viable for them yet and even if it was, anyone worried about the environmental damage of extra mileage to the on-route charger wouldnt be driving that journey anyway and would be taking public transport.
There are genuine barriers to mass adoption of EVs, the main one being that unless you have access to a home or office charger on a frequent basis, it's not going to be viable. And a lot of people will fall into that category. But his environmental concerns are a bit... odd.