Sabri Lamouchi - yes or no?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Make your mind up Bob

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Just trying to see both sides of the argument Sludge - I know it's not very fashionable these days.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What I don’t get about arguments like this is that they imply that the team and supporters just carried on as if nothing had happened when that Chelsea goal was given and the penalty missed on Saturday. In both cases, the team were down the bottom of the table and yet you’re arguing that their attitude would be “oh well, never mind, let’s carry on as if nothing has happened” - I’ll never stop believing that the Chelsea goal had a huge negative impact on our survival chances in 18/19 and while Saturday’s penalty miss is not as big as that and Ivenever argued that it will be the sole reason for our relegation if we go down, it will be a moment when the doubts were increased. If our fate boils down to whether we score a penalty up at Burnley or not, the cumulative effect of our dismal record from the spot this season would put even more pressure on the taker.

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Of course every decision or miss can have huge ramifications. However the bigger point is you can't just look at one incident. Eg the Brighton game in the Premier league where sol scored that 93rd minute winner despite being offside. Had that been correctly disallowed we may have been even further adrift by the time we got to the Chelsea game?

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Of course every decision or miss can have huge ramifications. However the bigger point is you can't just look at one incident. Eg the Brighton game in the Premier league where sol scored that 93rd minute winner despite being offside. Had that been correctly disallowed we may have been even further adrift by the time we got to the Chelsea game?

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It becomes harder to recover from such howlers if they happen towards the end of the season as opposed to three months into it though. I'd argue as well that in the days before VAR, goals like Bamba's always tended to be allowed, but the Chelsea decision was so wrong that it should never have been allowed - there is a human factor which explains why someone would have missed the Brighton offside even though it was the only thing the linesman should have been looking for at the time, there's no excuse for the Chelsea offside being missed though.

Of course it's impossible to argue that we were relegated in 18/19 solely because of the Chelsea offside decision, but it's the effect an injustice like that has on a club that knows it's fighting an uphill battle to stay in the division that is important - think what impact a win, or even a creditable draw, against Chelsea (albeit not a great Chelsea team) would have had on the whole club.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What I don’t get about arguments like this is that they imply that the team and supporters just carried on as if nothing had happened when that Chelsea goal was given and the penalty missed on Saturday. In both cases, the team were down the bottom of the table and yet you’re arguing that their attitude would be “oh well, never mind, let’s carry on as if nothing has happened” - I’ll never stop believing that the Chelsea goal had a huge negative impact on our survival chances in 18/19 and while Saturday’s penalty miss is not as big as that and Ivenever argued that it will be the sole reason for our relegation if we go down, it will be a moment when the doubts were increased. If our fate boils down to whether we score a penalty up at Burnley or not, the cumulative effect of our dismal record from the spot this season would put even more pressure on the taker.

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And how many other situations have there been, missed penalties, missed shots that could've changed the results of games over the course of the season? Its easy to say that X change the entire season outcome but the reality is over the course of a season, you'e either good enough or not good enough. How many times have we got undeserved points due to opposition failings?

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Originally Posted by logic

And how many other situations have there been, missed penalties, missed shots that could've changed the results of games over the course of the season? Its easy to say that X change the entire season outcome but the reality is over the course of a season, you'e either good enough or not good enough. How many times have we got undeserved points due to opposition failings?

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If sabri would have missed the penalty at Sheffield United I bet some people would have said had he scored that we could have kicked on and got another to win etc...... well he did score, we went 1 up and still managed to lose 4 1.

Had the Stoke defenders dealt with a simple punt up field by allsop and Saturday we wouldn't have equalised etc.... could go on and on.

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Originally Posted by logic

And how many other situations have there been, missed penalties, missed shots that could've changed the results of games over the course of the season? Its easy to say that X change the entire season outcome but the reality is over the course of a season, you'e either good enough or not good enough. How many times have we got undeserved points due to opposition failings?

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I feel ,like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here, where have I said that relegation would be solely down to Saturday's penalty miss? What I did say in the match thread is that four missed penalties that could have earned us an extra four points would be the reason why we went down if we do end up doing so. That was said minutes after the end of yet another substandard home performance where the team only seemed to grasp what was at stake in the last quarter of an hour or so - it was said out of disappointment and anger, but it is true to say that we would be safe now with those extra four points.

I, and plenty of other City fans, were saying from day one that we looked short of fire power and that opinion has proved to be correct - the missed penalties are symptomatic of what will be the single biggest on field reason for our relegation if we do finish in the bottom three.

Score that penalty on Saturday and were on 48 points. Leaving Blackpool and Wigan unable to catch us and Reading to have to win both remaining games to overtake us even if we lose our next three. It was a huge moment.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Score that penalty on Saturday and were on 48 points. Leaving Blackpool and Wigan unable to catch us and Reading to have to win both remaining games to overtake us even if we lose our next three. It was a huge moment.

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Kaba’s penalty was saved in the 62nd minute. Had he scored, anything could have happened from that point forward. There’s certainly no guarantee the game would have ended as a 2-1 victory for City.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

If we stay up and it looks like we will it would be idiotic to change the manager yet again

He's clearly not brilliant as if he was he would be managing a big club in the top flight but essentially the fact that we have been poor for 3 managers suggests the players are the problem

I think he should be given the job , if he wants it , to try and rebuild on a budget or worse , no budget

I look at the side now and I think of Sawyers who blows so hot and cold and the lack of class in midfield and think that's why we are crap not the management

You can't make a shower out of a broken toilet seat

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You can if you hold someone upside down, then yer mate flushes the toilet , bit of thing in Llanrumney High , bit of a thing the flushing of new entrant heads ,halcyon times

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Score that penalty on Saturday and were on 48 points. Leaving Blackpool and Wigan unable to catch us and Reading to have to win both remaining games to overtake us even if we lose our next three. It was a huge moment.

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Go 2-1 up, we then invite pressure by defending what we have...

All swings and roundabouts.

If we do get relegated, it won't be down to that penalty miss.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Kaba’s penalty was saved in the 62nd minute. Had he scored, anything could have happened from that point forward. There’s certainly no guarantee the game would have ended as a 2-1 victory for City.

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Seeing as almost nothing happened after the miss, the converted penalty most likely gets us 3 points. I get your point, but two goals are better than one.

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Originally Posted by logic

Go 2-1 up, we then invite pressure by defending what we have...

All swings and roundabouts.

If we do get relegated, it won't be down to that penalty miss.

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It could be. You can't categorically say it won't.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

It could be. You can't categorically say it won't.

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It might not be. You can't categorically say it would be.

Our lack of goals has been a problem all season.

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Originally Posted by logic

It might not be. You can't categorically say it would be.

Our lack of goals has been a problem all season.

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The injury time goals conceded at Luton, Wigan and Swansea will be the reason we go down ( if we do)

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

If sabri would have missed the penalty at Sheffield United

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I’d have been shocked if Sabri would have taken the pen let alone missed it:yikes:

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Seeing as almost nothing happened after the miss, the converted penalty most likely gets us 3 points. I get your point, but two goals are better than one.

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If the penalty had been converted the chances are it would have been a very different game from that point onwards. City may well have gone on win, but there’s no guarantee of that. For instance, after the equaliser against Swansea, you would have assumed we’d have had the momentum, but the opposite was true.

This is not a good City team. Not by any stretch of the imagination, Making any assumptions about what would or could have happened during the last half hour of a game such as Saturday’s is folly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Seeing as almost nothing happened after the miss, the converted penalty most likely gets us 3 points. I get your point, but two goals are better than one.

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Two-one down, you think Stoke are going to sit back and think "nah, take the loss" or would they attack more to try to equalise? They may do. They may also leave more space for us to get a third.

Any discrete incident affects the game. Scoring the penalty may have got us the win, no guarantees.

Yes from ne

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Before Lamouchi's first game, City were 3 points behind Birmingham, 4 points behind Stoke and Bristol City, 5 points behind Hull and 6 points behind Coventry. We're now 7 points behind Birmingham and Stoke, 10 points behind Hull and Bristol City, and 20 points behind Coventry.

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We were 2 points ahead of Burnley after 3 games. This sort of comparison moot.

I think the trajectory was probably going in the wrong direction under the previous two managers and the concern was that we could carry on dropping until there was no way of coming back.

The positive spin is that Lamouchi has stabilised things. We are no higher, true. But we aren't any worse off either than when he came in.

Other things to bear in mind. It isn't his team and the player he has brought in ( I don't know if Kaba was his choice but ...) has done well.

The injury to Robinson hasn't helped.

Also, everyone was crying out for us to score more goals which we have done but has obviously made us more vulnerable at the back.

Lastly, I think his demeanour has not been one of "I'm gonna revolutionise things" .....it's been one of "this team is struggling and if we can stay up , which is by no means a guarantee, we will have been successful " ........which I think is reflected in the way he is setting them up. He is trying different things to get a song out of a squad that were already playing dire football and he is getting a decent response every one in three games.

I doubt there are many other managers who would have got much more out of this squad. As such, I feel that saying "no" is not really a rational option. I think it should be "unconvinced" or "yes".

Either way, until he gets his squad in place it's very difficult to judge him fairly.

Given he can assemble a squad to his liking, I'd definitely give him a season. He seems like he has his head screwed on and has a bit of experience at the right end of this league.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Assuming that Sabri Lamouchi manages to keep City in the Championship during the next couple of weeks, do you think he should be offered a new contract for next season and beyond?

It's a definite no for me.

When Lamouchi was appointed as Cardiff's manager on 27th January, the team was 3 points above the relegation zone. Three months have passed since then and the team is still 3 points above the relegation zone, but that's only because of Reading's points deduction. City would be just 2 points above the relegation zone without that penalty.

Before Lamouchi's first game, City were 3 points behind Birmingham, 4 points behind Stoke and Bristol City, 5 points behind Hull and 6 points behind Coventry. We're now 7 points behind Birmingham and Stoke, 10 points behind Hull and Bristol City, and 20 points behind Coventry.

Lamouchi's tactics have often been suspect, while his substitutions (or a lack of them) have sometimes been baffling. With the possible exception of Kion Etete, I don't think any of City's first team squad have improved at all since he took charge, and the team's increasing habit of starting matches slowly has become a real concern.

It's obvious that another rebuild of sorts will be essential during the summer. Given what we've witnessed during the last three months, I'd be actively searching for a new manager if I was City's owner.

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I would say yes, for two reasons, I don't think we could get any better after Warnock the appointments prior have been rubbish until Sabri.

Also, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, he inherited a bag full of pig skin with just a tiny few bits of silk, give him a transfer window and a few more bits of silk and he could at least make something better looking than the pig's ear he inherited.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

If the penalty had been converted the chances are it would have been a very different game from that point onwards. City may well have gone on win, but there’s no guarantee of that. For instance, after the equaliser against Swansea, you would have assumed we’d have had the momentum, but the opposite was true.

This is not a good City team. Not by any stretch of the imagination, Making any assumptions about what would or could have happened during the last half hour of a game such as Saturday’s is folly in my opinion.

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We still seem fragile the slightest knock seems to affect us more than it should, I suppose it's being at the bottom of the league for most of the season, and it takes its toll on the player's confidence and mental strength. Thank God for Kaba without his enthusiasm and goals we'd be down by now.

The manager’s problem is the chasm in the ability of the squad members. Most clubs have players of more or less the same standard with, perhaps, one or if they’re lucky two a cut above the rest. With us its akin to the usual parks side scenario, 3 or 4 decent, 3 or 4 ok ish and then we’re down to ‘:facepalm: Jesus, he’s coming on, or he’s in the side, that’s me working twice as hard’.

We’ve most probably done well to stay out of the bottom three with the makeweights we’ve got. And that’s the manager’s massive hindrance, like a parks side, he has to play them because he’s got no f*cker else. Lamouchi will only enhance his reputation should we avoid the drop, if we go down I don’t reckon it’ll harm his standing too much as within the game our situation is common knowledge.

There are some questions about his tactics but the fact of the matter is he was handed a team of poor to average players who had been badly managed and coached before he came

I think the confidence of the side has improved but I think it's impossible to get a pair of black suede pants out of cheap pvc

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There are some questions about his tactics but the fact of the matter is he was handed a team of poor to average players who had been badly managed and coached before he came

I think the confidence of the side has improved but I think it's impossible to get a pair of black suede pants out of cheap pvc

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Amen .

You do like your lower region comparisons i.e. pants , toilet seats , one cant stoop much lower down the pan in my view

Where would Lamouchi be without Sory Kaba. Given the choice I’ll keep Kaba thanks. Without his signing (plaudits to whoever made it happen) Lamouchi’s record would be no better than the others this season.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There are some questions about his tactics but the fact of the matter is he was handed a team of poor to average players who had been badly managed and coached before he came

I think the confidence of the side has improved but I think it's impossible to get a pair of black suede pants out of cheap pvc

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I think Lamouchi could pull that look off, the others pretenders, not a chance!

Its June 2022, the squad is assembled, the team are ready to put a shift in for the new boss. Who you picking?
Sabri Lamouchi
Steve Morison
Mark Hudson

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Originally Posted by OurManFlint II

Its June 2022, the squad is assembled, the team are ready to put a shift in for the new boss. Who you picking?
Sabri Lamouchi
Steve Morison
Mark Hudson

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Nathan Jones

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Originally Posted by OurManFlint II

I think Lamouchi could pull that look off, the others pretenders, not a chance!

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Lamouchi has that edge

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Assuming that Sabri Lamouchi manages to keep City in the Championship during the next couple of weeks, do you think he should be offered a new contract for next season and beyond?

It's a definite no for me.

When Lamouchi was appointed as Cardiff's manager on 27th January, the team was 3 points above the relegation zone. Three months have passed since then and the team is still 3 points above the relegation zone, but that's only because of Reading's points deduction. City would be just 2 points above the relegation zone without that penalty.

Before Lamouchi's first game, City were 3 points behind Birmingham, 4 points behind Stoke and Bristol City, 5 points behind Hull and 6 points behind Coventry. We're now 7 points behind Birmingham and Stoke, 10 points behind Hull and Bristol City, and 20 points behind Coventry.

Lamouchi's tactics have often been suspect, while his substitutions (or a lack of them) have sometimes been baffling. With the possible exception of Kion Etete, I don't think any of City's first team squad have improved at all since he took charge, and the team's increasing habit of starting matches slowly has become a real concern.

It's obvious that another rebuild of sorts will be essential during the summer. Given what we've witnessed during the last three months, I'd be actively searching for a new manager if I was City's owner.

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Having kept us up (would be a miracle if we were relegated now) then it's a qualified Yes from me.

He's done well enough to justify a one year extension.
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We're now 17 points behind Coventry indicating we've outperformed them during Lamouchi's reign.

I also have doubts about the tactics and subs deal.but unless the board have an alternative they believe will work better, it's churlish to claim someone who has achieved the set goal shouldn't be given a year

Yes, yes and yes. Hopefully, Sabri will have a chance to recruit some better quality players this summer, if we aren't under an embargo:hehe:

Think he’s the best manager we’ve had this season by quite some distance, some questionable tactics at times aside. Not sure I would trust our board to find anyone better… I hope if he is back next season out of a relegation battle he trusts the kids a bit more.

I said when he took the job if he keeps us up he deserves to keep the job. If he wants it.
He's all but achieved that and I haven't seen anything to change my mind

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Originally Posted by superfeathers

I said when he took the job if he keeps us up he deserves to keep the job. If he wants it.
He's all but achieved that and I haven't seen anything to change my mind

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Yeah, hopefully he can create a more balanced squad and some winning ( and attractive) style of football………especially at home !!!

Very rarely, if ever, stay tuned to watch to post match summing up but did last night. Thought he spoke well, no mention of ‘in the building’, ‘the group’ or ‘on the grass’. For that alone, it’s a yes from me.

He's got 20 points from them. If you discount the first 3, it is a remarkable run.

They've scored 19 goals in 13. It is remarkable really, I think we've got a base to build from. Hopefully the football can improve if we get a few better players in. That is imperative. We must sign a centre mid who can get around the pitch and create, replace Kipre, Kaba and Philogene and go from there.

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Originally Posted by billy.ronson

Yeah, hopefully he can create a more balanced squad and some winning ( and attractive) style of football………especially at home !!!

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It’s a yes from me, we need stability and a platform to build on, it won’t happen overnight but if he’s allowed to bring in new players and not just numbers to make up the squad, he should be given the opportunity.
If by some chance we kept Kipre and Kaba for next season, we still need another forward to go with Robinson, Etete and Davies.

We need a midfielder who can command that position and pull the strings, at least one winger two defenders and a new goalkeeper.

We don’t need any more projects like Tanner or Campbell, we need real competition for places in the squad.
Robinson, Collins, Colwill, Davies should all have a pre season under their belts and it will be interesting to see if Adam’s can step up to Championship level

I’d be keen to move on one of the keepers, and the likes of Wickham, Whyte Harris Ojo Watters Sang and King, plus one of the midfielders.

Who ever it is has a big job on their hands

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

Where would Lamouchi be without Sory Kaba. Given the choice I’ll keep Kaba thanks. Without his signing (plaudits to whoever made it happen) Lamouchi’s record would be no better than the others this season.

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How do you know others wouldn't step up?

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Originally Posted by logic

How do you know others wouldn't step up?

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We've seen them? :hehe:

I don't think this is on Lamouchi, without Kaba we'd be down regardless of the manager.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

We've seen them? :hehe:

I don't think this is on Lamouchi, without Kaba we'd be down regardless of the manager.

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Etete has certainly improved, I think he'll over the course of his career have a better one than Kaba. Kaba has that knack of getting goals, but also playing poorly. He's like a much better Callum Paterson.

Kaba has been on a purple patch, one that is very much out of character with his career at what, 27, 28 years of age?

I'd like to see us bringing Kaba in permanently, but for the future I'd like to see if Etete and Davies could form a partnership, as I feel that could come close to our best striker set up since Bothroyd and Chopra.