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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...e-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Fr...ver-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-r...st-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.
I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.
Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...e-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Fr...ver-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-r...st-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
Jesus Allah.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
You sound more like you want the eradication of all Muslims than a two state solution.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.
Attachment 5885
If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.
Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.
I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.
Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.
I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.
But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.
So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?
If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.
Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.
This chant should get in the bin.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.
Attachment 5885
If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.
Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!
I think you are confused Jon. I am the one objecting to the chant. I'm saying it's not okay, irrespective of who says it.
It's you that seems to think it's okay.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.
But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.
So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?
If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.
Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.
This chant should get in the bin.
It isn't about ignoring it, it is about not wanting to set a precedent that you later regret. It is about valuing one person's right to say something over the other person's right to be offended/upset.
There is a line somewhere of course but you do appear to be drawing it very close to one end of the spectrum, evidenced by the fact that you don't seem to be able to explain why you think the words are racist or racially motivated.
There is also an argument that censoring/suppressing something that you think develops into or is linked to dangerous extremism probably won't achieve what you intend it to for a few reasons. 1) extremist views go underground but also 2) the moderates feel unjustly persecuted and move further towards entrenched ideological positions and further away from pushing for a logical solution which stops innocent people dying.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Let's be honest quite a number of folk within these Pro Palestinian marches are a handy cover for Antisemitism hatred.
See Labour starting to show its colours as Andy Mcdonald is suspended for uttering this dreadful genocide phrase .
What happens with his actual Muslim MP's surely they resigned on principle.
Everyones fool Corbyn may have to step up and save the party or form a new one with his radicals .
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
It isn't about ignoring it, it is about not wanting to set a precedent that you later regret. It is about valuing one person's right to say something over the other person's right to be offended/upset.
There is a line somewhere of course but you do appear to be drawing it very close to one end of the spectrum, evidenced by the fact that you don't seem to be able to explain why you think the words are racist or racially motivated.
There is also an argument that censoring/suppressing something that you think develops into or is linked to dangerous extremism probably won't achieve what you intend it to for a few reasons. 1) extremist views go underground but also 2) the moderates feel unjustly persecuted and move further towards entrenched ideological positions and further away from pushing for a logical solution which stops innocent people dying.
Yeah I get that, there is a balance to be found and you certainly can't be banning things merely for being unpleasant or offensive. And I don't doubt there is different interpretations of this song (the wording Andy McDonald has been suspended for actually seems harsh)..
But..I think when you have a lot of people living in genuine fear in this country, I really don't think the song is tolerable yet it seems to be in a way we wouldn't tolerate other songs deemed as racist by many on the receiving end.
Personally I view it more as xenophobic and about seeking to deny Israel its existence. People would dispute this of course, and others still would say this is the meaning and because of Israel's history as the only Jewish state, they could also in turn consider it racist.
I think it's grim and I find it pretty uncomfortable seeing people chant it and I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
Again, aside from anything else it highlights that there may be a pretty unpleasant minority attaching themselves to peace marches.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Funnily enough BBC talking about these very issues now on the 10 O clock news.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
What Andy McDonald said at the demonstration on Saturday:
"We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."
This is deeply offensive to Labour, to the Mail, to the Israeli spin machine and to Life on Mars (who calls it genocidal - whilst the death tolls climbs in Gaza!). Of course it is. We need more lectures on morality from the board's top misogynist and Islamophobe!
We are in the middle of a cynical, bullshit, hypocritical propaganda war whilst hundreds of babies are burnt and dismembered by bombs every night. It's sick.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
What Andy McDonald said at the demonstration on Saturday:
"We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."
This is deeply offensive to Labour, to the Mail, to the Israeli spin machine and to Life on Mars (who calls it genocidal - whilst the death tolls climbs in Gaza!). Of course it is. We need more lectures on morality from the board's top misogynist and Islamophobe!
We are in the middle of a cynical, bullshit, hypocritical propaganda war whilst hundreds of babies are burnt and dismembered by bombs every night. It's sick.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67268154
Meanwhile, the Israeli PM is saying this is the time for war.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Absolute clown
Far more dangerous to Jewish people in the UK than the rivers to the sea chants
Complete nutter , would peace being determined by a 2000 year old book full of fairy stories
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Absolute clown
Far more dangerous to Jewish people in the UK than the rivers to the sea chants
Complete nutter , would peace being determined by a 2000 year old book full of fairy stories
He's not a clown, he's a genocidal maniac.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I did point that out
I have said I don't support what Israel is doing
You can't really accuse others of tangents when you take a criticism of racist chanting and use it to mean I support Zionism. If I object to someone being called a 'p***' that doesn't mean I support the Pakistani govt either..get it?!
I just don't see why you don't call it out. Many Jewish people are telling you it's racist but you are like...nah it's okay..what do they know?
And again, aside from anything it's souring what is of course a very legitimate set of protests for peace
I haven't called out the slogan as I don't see it as being anti semitic. Not in the case of the majority of Pro Palestinisn supporters marching in London.
If used by a Hamas member, I'd have probably a different interpretation.
What I see is the term/slogan being weaponised by both sides to interpret meaning which suits their opinions or politics.
It was used in the 60s before Hamas corrupted it.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
I haven't called out the slogan as I don't see it as being anti semitic. Not in the case of the majority of Pro Palestinisn supporters marching in London.
If used by a Hamas member, I'd have probably a different interpretation.
What I see is the term/slogan being weaponised by both sides to interpret meaning which suits their opinions or politics.
It was used in the 60s before Hamas corrupted it.
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
By the way the words of Alexei Sayle are worth reading for those getting overvexed about this issue. Just maybe he has found a stance to adopt as a way out of this nightmare for everyone.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?
Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.
However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.
The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself
Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians
You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948
The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself
Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians
You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948
The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
You have got more excuses than a master of excuses
You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages
Anyone else would graciously retire
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You have got more excuses than a master of excuses
You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages
Anyone else would graciously retire
Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.
You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.
But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!
It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.
And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.
Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.
The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?
Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.
However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.
The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.
At last we agree about something
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.
But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!
It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.
And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.
Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.
The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.
If people who call for a free Palestine are according to JW cool with what he thinks are anti Semitic chanting .....despite being sung by plenty of people of Jewish origin then he clearly is an Israeli stooge
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.
You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.
OK let's call it as you would say
You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism
You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else
That's Zionism
You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
OK let's call it as you would say
You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism
You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else
That's Zionism
You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child
Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.
Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.
Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.
You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting
That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing
It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it
It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians
If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence
But like the Palestinians you have nothing
You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting
That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing
It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it
It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians
If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence
But like the Palestinians you have nothing
You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it
I didn't actually say you are cool with antisemitism, I said you are cool with the chant (and you clearly are) and that chant is considered racist. You can put the two together if you want but I didn't say it.
And for the nth time, this is about social harmony in that UK, not the war itself which is plainly massively more traumatic.
However, given you started a thread demanding Kay Burley be sacked for asking a politician a question you rather lose the right to accuse others of not seeing the bigger picture.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.
I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.
'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.
To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.
My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?
As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.
Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.
Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.
I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.
'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.
To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.
My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?
As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.
Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.
Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.
It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.
Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.
So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.
I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.
As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.
Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.
So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.
I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.
As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
The Israeli government is democratic extremist
Which basically means they kill people if they have to and sometimes when they don't have to
There is video footage of gangs of Israelis in tel aviv chanting kill the Arabs! circulating on the news tonight
But that's OK because Israel is a democracy
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.
If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.
If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
Indeed
It may be a pseudo democracy but that doesn't mean it isn't prone to killing and lying
Blimey Thatcher and the sinking of the belgrano and Blair in Iraq!
Legitimacy by election doesn't clear states of illegality
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Re: "From the river to the sea" chant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
Don't disagree with much of that tbh. I just think sometimes we forget that Israel is by far the most liberal and democratic state in the middle east.
As I said though, that makes no difference if that state is responsible (or even part responsible if you blame Hamas first) for a family member dying.
I also think it's unfortunate that Netanyahu is in power, but I think he's also a product of the wider arena there. Who in that part of the world seeks a weak leader? Irrespective, he is in power and I don't think the response would be much different if he wasn't really and Hamas knew what would happen. I can only hope that somehow after this we reach some kind of reckoning that means people demand peace in future, from both sides. But I can't see this happening until Hamas are no more.
