"Science is not perfect but it trumps faith and belief all the time" - true or false?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

That list would be a long one, and today (in the UK at least) most people are unaware that phrases and words such as Armageddon, Job's comforter, Baptism of fire, By the skin of your teeth, Writing is on the wall, Give up the ghost and scores of other are originally from the Bible. The above article explains why circle of the earth is employed in Isaiah 40 very well. It's a great pity that people end up using the language of God's Word, but are very careful to reject the advice of the Author.

---

Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

Not only does God know the past he knows the future ?

This is absolutely ridiculous and I can't take part in a debate with this sort of line in the sand

Boom !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

---

1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

---

Are you also suggesting that the Bible has NO later to be discovered science in it's pages?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Are you also suggesting that the Bible has NO later to be discovered science in it's pages?

---

Not sure. Who knows what we will discover on the other line items of your meme showing biblical proof that it was ahead of science.

But we are still working through item 1, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

---

I was highlighting something you posted earlier in this thread. Don't you consume any of the cut and paste stuff you spew out?

In Isaiah 44:13 a variant of the word is translated in the ESV as “compass”: “The [human] carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.” Here, the compass is an instrument used for drawing a circle, and such instruments are still in use today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

---

Apologies, I missed your earlier counter argument on why Jesus talked about the ends of the earth. So Isiah, centuries before, knew that the Earth was an oblate spheroid because he mentioned a circle once and the ends of the Earth 12 times but Jesus wanted to be topicial with the flat earthers of the time.

However, when seeking to understand the Bible it can be literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic dependant upon your mood and whether you are trying to prove or disprove a point.

Cracking!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Apologies, I missed your earlier counter argument on why Jesus talked about the ends of the earth. So Isiah, centuries before, knew that the Earth was an oblate spheroid because he mentioned a circle once and the ends of the Earth 12 times but Jesus wanted to be topicial with the flat earthers of the time.

However, when seeking to understand the Bible it can be literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic dependant upon your mood and whether you are trying to prove or disprove a point.

Cracking!

---

Mood has zilch to do with it, unless you are talking about a bad mood causing a pretence of an inability to understand the context of each reference.

On a more straighforward reference that everyone will understand, how do you suppose that two different Old Testament writers were able to reference.....

1. "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth..." (2 Samuel 22:16)

2. You threw me into the ocean depths and I sank down to the heart of the sea......I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. (from Jonah 2:3,6)

......which have not been seen (due to the incredible underwater pressure) or discovered by any humans until 110 years ago!?

* April 27, 1914 – First Acoustic Exploration of the Sea Floor - Canadian inventor Reginald Fessenden found a way to employ an oscillator to bounce sound waves between an iceberg and the sea floor. This technology lead to the development of we now know as sonar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Mood has zilch to do with it, unless you are talking about a bad mood causing a pretence of an inability to understand the context of each reference.

On a more straighforward reference that everyone will understand, how do you suppose that two different Old Testament writers were able to reference.....

1. "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth..." (2 Samuel 22:16)

2. You threw me into the ocean depths and I sank down to the heart of the sea......I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. (from Jonah 2:3,6)

......which have not been seen (due to the incredible underwater pressure) or discovered by any humans until 110 years ago!?

* April 27, 1914 – First Acoustic Exploration of the Sea Floor - Canadian inventor Reginald Fessenden found a way to employ an oscillator to bounce sound waves between an iceberg and the sea floor. This technology lead to the development of we now know as sonar.

---

To fully understand the point you are seeking to make. Are the Biblical references you want others to discuss literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic based on your conclusions (not mood obviously) at #83

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I was highlighting something you posted earlier in this thread. Don't you consume any of the cut and paste stuff you spew out?

In Isaiah 44:13 a variant of the word is translated in the ESV as “compass”: “The [human] carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.” Here, the compass is an instrument used for drawing a circle, and such instruments are still in use today.

---

No problem, it would appear as with many Hebrew and Greek words there is more than one potential meaning; this word is מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh (mekk-oo-gaw'); an instrument for marking a circle, i.e. compasses:—compass.

What is your question re this word?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

To fully understand the point you are seeking to make. Are the Biblical references you want others to discuss literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic based on your conclusions (not mood obviously) at #83

---

Like with any literature, you examine the context in each individual case. To do otherwise would be madness, Bob would always end up being your Uncle! (for example).

The reference from Jonah for example is obviously literal, as Jonah was literally thrown overboard into the sea. And if you choose to fictionalise the narritive, you still need to explain how the writer even referenced the mountains of the deep?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

No problem, it would appear as with many Hebrew and Greek words there is more than one potential meaning; this word is מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh (mekk-oo-gaw'); an instrument for marking a circle, i.e. compasses:—compass.

What is your question re this word?

---

It was a simple question given that you used this sentence in the Old Testament to justify a conclusion that when Isiah talked about a circle around the Earth he was validating science before science. Biblical scholars think in terms of a compass rather than Isiah was a seer, given that he spewed out the ends of the earth reference a dozen times more.

So my question was, given the above, was the reference to a circle literal, metaphorical or hyperbolic based on your Biblical schemata and why, given the 81 flat earth references elsewhere?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Like with any literature, you examine the context in each individual case. To do otherwise would be madness, Bob would always end up being your Uncle! (for example).

The reference from Jonah for example is obviously literal, as Jonah was literally thrown overboard into the sea. And if you choose to fictionalise the narritive, you still need to explain how the writer even referenced the mountains of the deep?

---

Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

---

I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

---

Cyril he always tells the truth,
passages from the bible.NOT
You never convince him to alter his ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

---

Good point. I'm sure it would help the rest of us trying to follow your convoluted and concocted arguments in this thread if you made any future posts through the medium of Greek.

That would be much clearer (and I'm sure more convincing) than your attempts in English. :thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

---

Fair enough. Though unless you are an Aremaic, Hebrew or Latin scholar (spoiler alert...you're not) you must then have a go to text to overrule all those other versions. What is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Fair enough. Though unless you are an Aremaic, Hebrew or Latin scholar (spoiler alert...you're not) you must then have a go to text to overrule all those other versions. What is it?

---

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words is a brilliant reference, and while some of the worlds greatest Bible teachers can read the original languages, the majority cannot, so this is not a major consideration.
Also the internet can now give us quick access to the most gifted people in this field, so when words or phrases need to be analysed, then nobody needs to remain in the dark.

Attachment 6170

Here are your references for Jonah 2:6 and your query on the use of 'mountains' in that verse, you'll see a 'Strongs' reference numbered H2022; here below is the reference for H2022:-

Attachment 6171

I know it's rich for me to say this after my contributions on here regarding religion in general but....... you are all wasting your time.
Neither the religious protagonists on here nor the non-believers will change their views one iota.
That's not a criticism but an observation.
The endless exchanges are therefore just a waste of time and energy.

Ah, news update from the 'Pit'. Barking up any tree but the right one.

TBG - nobody is arguing the case for dead religion, but thanks for trying to scupper the dialogue.

Another person obviously not bothered, lol :biggrin:

Your mission remains unchanged, illogical and predictable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Ah, news update from the 'Pit'. Barking up any tree but the right one.

TBG - nobody is arguing the case for dead religion, but thanks for trying to scupper the dialogue.

Another person obviously not bothered, lol :biggrin:

Your mission remains unchanged, illogical and predictable.

---

Being your usual obnoxious self. No change there then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Being your usual obnoxious self. No change there then.

---

This is M O,resorts to insults.
IDF of this message board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Not only does God know the past he knows the future ?

This is absolutely ridiculous and I can't take part in a debate with this sort of line in the sand

Boom !

---

There is no debate. Just two different sides of an argument. One group trying to out do the other. I have no wish for God or religion in my life, but more power to those that do, as long as they're tolerant and prepared to see other thoughts and opinions. I can't believe that people are arguing the toss with this Truthpaste character. More fool them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Being your usual obnoxious self. No change there then.

---

No, just being as straight with others as others are with me.

If I was on the other side of the debate thinking it was about religion then I would want someone to tell me it was NOT - asap.

Also I'm amazed at how many people wish to speak on a subject they claim they consider to be a non-issue; does that seem logical to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Also I'm amazed at how many people wish to speak on a subject they claim they consider to be a non-issue; does that seem logical to you?

---

We’ve had longer pun threads tbf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baloo

We’ve had longer pun threads tbf.

---

Well let's compare the comments ratio with the most popular thread since last October:-

"40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel"
1,452 comments in 234 days (7th Oct 23 to 28th May 2024) = 6.2 comments/ day average.

Science v Faith (this one)
105 comments in 6 days (22nd - 28th May) = 17.5 comments/ day average.

It's early days but that's already getting on for triple the rate of comments per day.

Having said that, quality is usually greater than quantity, so let's hope we get more of that before the dialogue ends :thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

I have no wish for God or religion in my life, but more power to those that do, as long as they're tolerant and prepared to see other thoughts and opinions.

---

I fully agree with this sentiment, it's healthy for those who hold different opinions to be willing to sit down and explain why they believe what they believe, and they should be willing to answer questions, even if they need to go away to find the answers. Otherwise if they are unable/ unwilling to do this, it only indicates that they've jumped into a line without any idea what they are queuing for!
Also if two people can't agree, then they must be mature enough to agree to disagree, but if my (any) view can't stand up to questions and even the mildest of testing, is it really worth having?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Well let's compare the comments ratio with the most popular thread since last October:-

"40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel"
1,452 comments in 234 days (7th Oct 23 to 28th May 2024) = 6.2 comments/ day average.

Science v Faith (this one)
105 comments in 6 days (22nd - 28th May) = 17.5 comments/ day average.

It's early days but that's already getting on for triple the rate of comments per day.

Having said that, quality is usually greater than quantity, so let's hope we get more of that before the dialogue ends :thumbup:

---

OK, over 60 of the comments are from 2 contributors, most notably yourself.

That said, I think some people are interested in the topic, myself included (as a ‘Humanist’). But imo there are better ways to try to understand why people believe what they do than threads like this, which simply seem to entrench people’s views further due to the manner in which people engage with the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baloo

OK, over 60 of the comments are from 2 contributors, most notably yourself.

That said, I think some people are interested in the topic, myself included (as a ‘Humanist’). But imo there are better ways to try to understand why people believe what they do than threads like this, which simply seem to entrench people’s views further due to the manner in which people engage with the subject.

---

I for one would love to hear what a humanist thinks re origins, purpose and destiny, and while meeting over a coffee would ideal, most of us have to grab ten minutes when we are free, so message boards allow people to contribute when they can, they also provide a written record, so give a measure of accountability.

Did you have something else in mind?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

I for one would love to hear what a humanist thinks re origins, purpose and destiny, and while meeting over a coffee would ideal, most of us have to grab ten minutes when we are free, so message boards allow people to contribute when they can, they also provide a written record, so give a measure of accountability.

Did you have something else in mind?

---

Is your written word the bible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeepster

Is your written word the bible?

---

If you are referring to my phrase "a written record", then I meant that people can go back and see what you've said right back to the start of the conversation. That provides accountability for everyone, which is a good thing.

Back with the OP:

With a lack of any coordinated defence of Science so far, and nothing from non-biblical faiths (so far) such as humanism, then this is what we have - subject to further comment:-

*Faith provides:-

(1) Wisdom, including advice for the important aspects of life.
(2) A clear account of our origin.
(3) A diagnosis of our condition.
(4) A clear and free solution.
(5) A heads-up on destiny.

> Science provides:-

(1) Wisdom (subject to updates/ corrections) on many issues, mainly on the HOW questions, but rarely on WHY?
(2) An unsubstantiated suggestion of our origin, which is still looking for any form of verification.
(3) A suggestion that we are somehow improving as time moves on, with a backdrop of more mistakes in our DNA in each generation?
(4) No solution but probably a better selection of devices to look at for 4+ hours a day while you are physically alive.
(5) When you are physically dead, then that's all folks.

* In the God of the Bible.

[QUOTE=Wales-Bales;5513277]I thought this thread was going to be about Dr Fauci admitting the 6 foot social distancing rule was a load of made-up bollux. Anyway, please carry on :thumbup:[/QUOTE

talking of god and Fauci in this topic here's lardys fav republican throwing a wobbly after todays hearing . jesus is her saviour !


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">Dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <a href="https://t.co/9RMripnMGm">pic.twitter.com/9RMripnMGm</a></p>&mdash; Karli Bonne’ 🇺🇸 (@KarluskaP) <a href="https://twitter.com/KarluskaP/status/1797706119806329229?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 3, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[QUOTE=MOZZER2;5515230]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

I thought this thread was going to be about Dr Fauci admitting the 6 foot social distancing rule was a load of made-up bollux. Anyway, please carry on :thumbup:[/QUOTE

talking of god and Fauci in this topic here's lardys fav republican throwing a wobbly after todays hearing . jesus is her saviour !


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">Dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <a href="https://t.co/9RMripnMGm">pic.twitter.com/9RMripnMGm</a></p>&mdash; Karli Bonne’ 🇺🇸 (@KarluskaP) <a href="https://twitter.com/KarluskaP/status/1797706119806329229?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 3, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

---

An individual with an opinion who isn't hiding behind the sofa and has enough backbone to share her views publicly.

Meanwhile, on this side of the Atlantic..... :tumbleweed:

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5515525]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOZZER2

An individual with an opinion who isn't hiding behind the sofa and has enough backbone to share her views publicly.

Meanwhile, on this side of the Atlantic..... :tumbleweed:

---

What a strange post,so you think she is right?

[QUOTE=jeepster;5515526]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

What a strange post,so you think she is right?

---

My post is purely about her backbone, not her politics.
Trouble is with the UK, people in the main either play the hit and run card, or they crumble before they start because they know their view can't stand up to scrutiny, which usually means they remain silent.

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5515528]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeepster

My post is purely about her backbone, not her politics.
Trouble is with the UK, people in the main either play the hit and run card, or they crumble before they start because they know their view can't stand up to scrutiny, which usually means they remain silent.

---

Again because she mentions god she has a backbone?
I do not remain silent.

[QUOTE=jeepster;5515557]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Again because she mentions god she has a backbone?
I do not remain silent.

---

It's hardly unusual for an American to mention God in a positive fashion, but that isn't the issue. Right or wrong on any or all of the points, she is willing to stand up and be counted, to step outside the comfort zone.
You rightly say you not silent, however can you address the subject of this conversation?

Can you make a case for science over the wisdom of the Bible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truthpaste

Back with the OP:

With a lack of any coordinated defence of Science so far, and nothing from non-biblical faiths (so far) such as humanism, then this is what we have - subject to further comment:-

*Faith provides:-

(1) Wisdom, including advice for the important aspects of life.
(2) A clear account of our origin.
(3) A diagnosis of our condition.
(4) A clear and free solution.
(5) A heads-up on destiny.

> Science provides:-

(1) Wisdom (subject to updates/ corrections) on many issues, mainly on the HOW questions, but rarely on WHY?
(2) An unsubstantiated suggestion of our origin, which is still looking for any form of verification.
(3) A suggestion that we are somehow improving as time moves on, with a backdrop of more mistakes in our DNA in each generation?
(4) No solution but probably a better selection of devices to look at for 4+ hours a day while you are physically alive.
(5) When you are physically dead, then that's all folks.

* In the God of the Bible.

---

****ing laughable. You're a ****ing idiot.