according to Rory Stewart on twitter earlier the US haven't donated much more than the EU to Ukraine, the figures that trump was chucking around were wildly wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
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according to Rory Stewart on twitter earlier the US haven't donated much more than the EU to Ukraine, the figures that trump was chucking around were wildly wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
No, I doubt they would. But I use it as an example to demonstrate why that part of the world won't necessarily be of enormous interest to many American voters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
The problem is that the evidence from America....Trump....and Great Britain....Farage .....is that complete con artists who promise the lot and are flash are exactly what the right leaning voters are backingQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It's incredible really , if I met the likes of farage at a party or social event I would think what a oily creep
But the fact is he's riding high in the polls
It astounds me but there you go
Yeah as you can imagine, you can see different figures quoted, but the Wus populatiob is 100m more, and it's on their doorstep. As I say, its not hard to see why many Americans might feel it's not their top priority or they may feel that those much closer to Ukraine are putting in less than them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
As I say, it doesn't mean they are right but it's not a hard position to understand and I think it's probably a feeling we need to get to grips with to understand whats going on
No different to Corbyn at all. Not really any different to Obama and his vague promises of "hope". It's a very common trait. One could argue it's exactly what Starmer promised too. Politicians who are brutally honest would probably never get elected.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I meant to say the EU's population...not the Wus populatiob, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It depends what you include. There is what the USA has spent on the war Vs what they have given Ukraine, the majority of the latter is the cost of replenishing weapon stocks (so not necessarily the value of the equipment given). Either way, I am struggling to find anything in the ballpark of the figure Trump mentions, so another lie probably. They make a lot of weapons and their stock is huge so they were in a position to give more, what Trump wants is for everyone to buy American made weapons and give them to Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Trump and his supporters seem to have some inbuilt delusion that America is untouchable. A strong enlarged Russia who is now in the pocket of China and a weakened European continent that is at best ambivalent towards to the US. Its generous to call it short-sighted foreign policy to pursue that. Trump can cozy up to Russia and China as much as he wants, he's not going to gaze into their eyes and make them fall in love with America.
I had a couple of days in Athens on my own a few years back and it struck me how easy it is to assume the same order goes on forever, it doesn't.
And you think this has always been true, or is a recent phenomena?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I doubt the average American ever had a better idea of geography than now - but in past decades they had a different sense of their role in the world (sometimes for good, more often for bad) than in the modern MAGA TrumpWorld.
Maybe that was down to the priorities and narratives of the broadcast, print and social media?
Maybe in the past stupidity and ignorance was less valued and celebrated than now?
I agree with you, but the point is, it's a long way from home for them and yet they are spending more than countries much closer, and many many Americans will think it's not money well spent. This is the reality of public opinion, right or wrong. I can understand their point though. American society has enormous problems and they are entitled to think there are better ways of spending it than sending it thousands of miles away to a country that they have probably never thought much about before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Again, it's not saying that's the right attitude, but it's an understandable one and I think it's a key one to grasp to get what's happening now
Zelensky has gone on record and claims the figure as 177 billion dollars but only has received 75 billion dollars from USAQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
where's the rest of the money then if these claims are true ?
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wonder where our tax dollars went🤔<br><br> 'Zelensky claims Ukraine only received around $75 billion of the $177 billion in aid that was sent from the United States'<br><br> Where did our money go? 💸💸💸💸💸 <a href="https://t.co/DqcHhU2GNR">pic.twitter.com/DqcHhU2GNR</a></p>— Greta_USA (@DEI_Greta) <a href="https://twitter.com/DEI_Greta/status/1892343113001128403?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 19, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Not sure. I think there's some truth in Americans not being top of the class in the global geography stakes. Understandable in some cases given it's size, lack of neighbours and the like I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I'm not sure things have changed so much. There's always been a significant body of opinion that doesn't want America to the worlds policeman and to sort out their own problems first etc.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much...-going-ukraineQuote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
The figures don't line up exactly but that could be for lots of reasons.
Gives an idea of how there is a difference between 'how much has the USA spent on the war' and 'how much has Ukraine received'
'It’s important to note that of the $175 billion total, only $106 billion directly aids the government of Ukraine. Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region.'
I am sure it's not as juicy as the explanation you were heading towards (or being pushed towards by X propaganda) but gives an idea of why there could/would be so many different figures floating around.
A view I heard from a guest on Times Radio in the last few days was that Eisenhower told the Europeans that America would continue to pay the same proportion of funds to “policing “ Europe because they did not want to see any increase in German influence in the alliance. This person then went on to say that Clinton did the same in the 90s, so the notion that America has almost been conned by Europe into making the size of donation they have done historically to NATO may not be true - it’s been a considered decision by the Americans themselves even to the extent of telling Europe that they don’t have to spend more when they may have been minded to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Exactly, they are tools of the state, and now the US doesn't like the path Europe is taking, so they are using those same tools in a different way.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I'm just guessing that this guy knows a little more of the situation current and past than the CCMB experts.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🏆 Jeffrey Sachs Should Be A Nobel Prize Winner<br><br>Don't blame Russia for Ukraine War <br><br>Russia Did Everything Possible to Prevent this War<br><br>When They Blame Putin for Starting the War, Show Them This <br>👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇 <a href="https://t.co/h1bsm4PPi0">pic.twitter.com/h1bsm4PPi0</a></p>— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) <a href="https://twitter.com/ivan_8848/status/1893228172298063993?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 22, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Who is he? Assume you mean the first speaker, not Tucker Carlson or Vladimir Putin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathblue
Good effort from Wales, enjoyed that, the guy is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_SachsQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I feel sorry for putin being so harshly treated by Ukraine. Bless his little cotton socks, he wouldn't harm a fly let alone 1 million Russians
It’s Arsene Wenger isn’t it?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I wonder if certain users of this board would have the same views if Biden was brokering the same Ukraine deal as Donald TrumpQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Someone I doubt it.
How you know Arsene Wenger nailed it in the video?Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Clue, its a popular terrace chant of the 70's and 80's :hehe:,
thats only an extract, the whole video is an excellent education.
PETER HITCHENS: The moronic Ukraine war has done nothing but harm – so why are Europe’s leaders intent on keeping it going?
The neocons made a major bet on the proxy war in Ukraine and sanctions to bring Russia to its knees and force regime change. This was never about Ukraine and its mineral resources, it was always about stealing Russian oil and gas, and pumping trillions of dollars of resources through the pipelines in Ukraine. That's why Hunter Biden was on the Board of Burisma the national Ukrainian gas infrastructure provider.
Of course the plan was heavily backed by the globalists and Starmer and Macron are just the puppets obeying orders. They are incapable of negotiating for peace, and prolonging the war is about all they can hope to do.
It's been a total disaster and complete humiliation and spells the beginning of the end for NATO. Not to mention the 1 million dead Ukrainians who have lost their lives for no reason whatsoever. Had the Minsk agreement been adopted or later the Istanbul agreement had been signed, none if this would have happened.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jeffrey Sachs just told the European Parliament that Jake Sullivan privately admitted what he refused to acknowledge publicly—a simple truth about NATO that could have averted the Ukraine war. Utterly damning. Everything Sullivan touches turns into chaos, destruction and misery. <a href="https://t.co/1UY05fs7s9">pic.twitter.com/1UY05fs7s9</a></p>— Hans Mahncke (@HansMahncke) <a href="https://twitter.com/HansMahncke/status/1892782321750708268?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
he's always been my first port of cawl when it comes to the Ukraine / Russia conflict . Don't agree with everything he says mind but worth a listen on all things where america is concerned . knows his stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Heathblue
The clip above was interesting. Worth watching and thinking about. I agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it, and ended up wondering how reliable he is as a source on secret inter-state negotiations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
He did seem more focussed on the role of the US under Obama in 2014 and Biden in 2021 than Trump in 2025.
I don't think anyone can stay focussed where Trump is concerned.
Whilst he's had a seat at the table and has been involved in discussions prior to the war, he's not as informed as CCMB :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
I would consider him to be an expert on Ukraine and global governance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathblue
The problem with that theory is that it makes a base assumption that Putin is scared, acting now in fear of NATO expanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I don't think it takes a genius to work out why Putin doesn't want Ukraine in NATO and I think this compilation of an interview explains that pretty extensively.
https://x.com/nicholadrummond/status...88174843539935
It's almost beyond naive to think that if a statement was made saying 'Ukraine will never join NATO' that would have led to some happily ever after scenario where Ukraine remains a sovereign country.
I’m not sure what theory you are referring to - but I agree that Putin’s ambitions go way beyond keeping Ukraine out of NATO. There has been a lot of airbrushing of Zelenskyy, Ukrainian ultra nationalists and the US instigated coup in 2014. But there is also a willingness by some (mainly the right but a few ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ on the left) to sugarcoat Putin and Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Putin and the oligarchs that back him want a new expanded Greater Russia (Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great are the models - not Lenin or Stalin) to ensure their wealth and power is maxed out and they have a seat at the top table with the new world order: USA, China, Russia, India - once the post-war settlement based on international law and liberal democracies is finally trashed. The speed of that change is incredible.
Agree,Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
All this harks back to Great Power politics up to the time of the First World War. If Europe doesn't get it's act together as a credible, unified entity, then it may face the prospect of being carved up by stronger spheres of influence and bad actors.
I presume he’s a little bit easier than Biden though :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
I don't have much hope for Europe, but the US might just have saved itself at the 11th hour. Interesting times ahead for sure, but scary for those who have kids and grandchildren, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Russians won’t want anymore war, theyve already lost countless generals and 100,000 young men, so desperate they are sending in North Koreans to the slaughter now. Massive wake up call for Putin I think, might have the nukes but can’t really do much with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Europe will implode from within, it won't require a war to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
Just to clarify, the video above insinuates war could have been avoided if a public statement was made saying that Ukraine will never be admitted into NATO. I think that is massively naive, maybe war could be avoided for now but it just gives Putin the greenlight to pick his moment down the line for the reasons you go into here.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
From the Memory Hole 2014: Corbyn Was Right About Ukraine
It’s A Case Of Corbyn Was Right: On Russia And The Question Should The West Go To War Over Ukraine
Three years into a war that’s fed the military-industrial complex while decimating working-class lives on both sides, Trump demands peace while Starmer beats the drums of endless conflict. How did we get here? Let’s retrieve two prophetic voices from Orwell’s memory hole—Jeremy Corbyn’s warnings from Parliament and his later public statements in 2014.
“In Parliament this week,” Corbyn observed then, “there were a number of tin-pot generals using the opportunity of the Ukrainian crisis to insist that Britain should rapidly and exponentially increase military expenditure.” How familiar that sounds today, as Starmer pledges British troops for a war that’s already cost us billions.
Corbyn understood Ukraine’s complex history—its role as the original heartland of Russian civilization, the bitter legacy of Stalin’s famines, the Nazi collaboration during World War II whose echoes could be seen in “Nazi insignia and racist slogans in Kiev only a week ago.” He recognised what today’s hawks conveniently forget: Ukraine’s deep linguistic and ethnic divisions, reflected in every census and electoral map.
Corbyn warned what would happen: “The EU has got very close to NATO,” he warned. “NATO has been pushing very hard to expand eastwards. Inevitably Russia is going to get very nervous if NATO sets up bases all around its borders, that in turn encourages Russian militarism.” His analysis was devastating in its clarity—each step toward militarisation would breed more militarism.
Read more and watch the video...
https://labourheartlands.com/from-th...about-ukraine/
#Ukraine
https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1893...LhmySD2aRt-GNg
Jeffrey Sachs speech in front of the EU parliament is astonishing!
He explains:
- the US foreign policy
- Netanyahu’s wars
- The Ukraine war
- The EU weakness
- The EU warmongering
That was as good a performance as Davy achieved at the AlamoQuote:
Originally Posted by stevo