Arsenal v PSG

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

After the deciding penalty miss ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RVvYw2tB/1990.jpg

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£100K a week (maybe more), and can’t hit a 24ft x 8ft target .

That’s equivalent to a brickie building wavy walls :hehe:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I’m not sure he would - that’s what he’s got a bunch of talented footballers who will nearly all be representing their countries in the coming World Cup to play like, I dread to think what he’d be like if he was in charge of, say, a Charlton Athletic.

I’ve been somewhat taken apack by the amount of anti Arsenal feeling on social media since Saturday, but I shouldn’t be really. Speaking as someone who has liked watching the admittedly unsuccessful Arsenal sides of the last twenty odd years because they tended to play attacking football, I get no pleasure out of watching the current team. For years, the charge against Arsenal was that their defending let them down in big games - Arteta has cured them of that, but it’s been at the cost of individual flair and creativity. No one summed this up more than Saka who was praised by commentator and pundits alike for his defensive responsibility and team ethic on Saturday, but, like so often this season, was some way below his potential going forward.

Saying that though, it’s not their negativity that I most dislike about Arteta’s Arsenal, it’s that I’m not sure I’ve seen another team which employs the “dark arts” and gamesmanship as much as Arsenal do since the Leeds side I grew to hate as a kid. A lot was made of the ref blowing for half time before Arsenal could take a corner and I recall that nearly fifty years ago it was widely believed that Welshman Clive Thomas lost the chance to ref a World Cup Final because he disallowed what would have been a winning Brazil goal from a corner in a match with Sweden because he blew for full time as the cross was coming in.

Therefore, it could be seen as a brave call by Saturday’s ref to deny Arsenal the chance to take their corner, but I was all for his decision because they were taking so long to take it and you know full well that there would have been multiple fouls committed by red shirted players when the corner was finally taken that Arsenal, like they have done all season, we’re gambling on officials letting them get away with things that would be penalised in any other area of the pitch.

It’s not just Arsenal who cheat at dead ball situations, put on pitch officials and those in charge of VAR under huge pressure and take gamesmanship to unacceptable levels, but they’ve come to epitomise it this season as they largely benefited from tight calls for the last few months to gain what I’d call maybe the most unimpressive Premier League title wins of recent years. The irony being that, like that Leeds team from all of those years ago, they could have done equally well, or even better, if their manager had been prepared to realease the hand brake a bit.

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Glad Stockport lost and stayed down too, unlucky Brad Hills :wave:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

After the deciding penalty miss ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RVvYw2tB/1990.jpg

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Nah. That picture was when a corner kick was being taken.
:hehe:

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Originally Posted by KingOfSiamIAm

I wouldnÂ’t be disappointed in the style if it were City in the final vs PSG, but as evidenced by the way we kept to our style last season, no matter who we played, I am inclined to think that BBM would have still played it his way.

However, Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in Europe (value wise), so to have gone with the tactic of a lower league team v a big teamÂ… I think I would have been disappointed if I were an Arsenal fan.

Once again, I can only comment based on the BBC live text and match stats as it happened.

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If you had been an Arsenal fan and your team had won the penalty shoot-out, the previous 120 minutes would have counted for nothing. Playing as they did gave them the best chance possible of defeating PSG. Arteta got his tactics spot on.

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Originally Posted by Moodybluebird

If you had been an Arsenal fan and your team had won the penalty shoot-out, the previous 120 minutes would have counted for nothing. Playing as they did gave them the best chance possible of defeating PSG. Arteta got his tactics spot on.

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Disagree with you there about Arteta getting his tactics spot on. I don’t like the way Arteta sets out his team to play, but trying to leave that aside for now, i couldn’t understand why they played so many long balls, why Raya knocked it long almost every time he had possession and why they had the keeper taking free kicks about fifty yards from their own goal. Arsenal don’t usually play like that and, from what I could see, PSG weren’t inconvenienced by it in the slightest as the ball just kept on coming back at Arsenal - it was as if they did not want the ball. That’s understandable i suppose for many teams that play PSG, but I think Arsenal have enough good players to have got their possession figures up around the 40/45 per cent mark which would have alleviated some of the pressure they were under.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

IÂ’m not sure he would - thatÂ’s what heÂ’s got a bunch of talented footballers who will nearly all be representing their countries in the coming World Cup to play like, I dread to think what heÂ’d be like if he was in charge of, say, a Charlton Athletic.

IÂ’ve been somewhat taken apack by the amount of anti Arsenal feeling on social media since Saturday, but I shouldnÂ’t be really. Speaking as someone who has liked watching the admittedly unsuccessful Arsenal sides of the last twenty odd years because they tended to play attacking football, I get no pleasure out of watching the current team. For years, the charge against Arsenal was that their defending let them down in big games - Arteta has cured them of that, but itÂ’s been at the cost of individual flair and creativity. No one summed this up more than Saka who was praised by commentator and pundits alike for his defensive responsibility and team ethic on Saturday, but, like so often this season, was some way below his potential going forward.

Saying that though, it’s not their negativity that I most dislike about Arteta’s Arsenal, it’s that I’m not sure I’ve seen another team which employs the “dark arts” and gamesmanship as much as Arsenal do since the Leeds side I grew to hate as a kid. A lot was made of the ref blowing for half time before Arsenal could take a corner and I recall that nearly fifty years ago it was widely believed that Welshman Clive Thomas lost the chance to ref a World Cup Final because he disallowed what would have been a winning Brazil goal from a corner in a match with Sweden because he blew for full time as the cross was coming in.

Therefore, it could be seen as a brave call by SaturdayÂ’s ref to deny Arsenal the chance to take their corner, but I was all for his decision because they were taking so long to take it and you know full well that there would have been multiple fouls committed by red shirted players when the corner was finally taken that Arsenal, like they have done all season, weÂ’re gambling on officials letting them get away with things that would be penalised in any other area of the pitch.

ItÂ’s not just Arsenal who cheat at dead ball situations, put on pitch officials and those in charge of VAR under huge pressure and take gamesmanship to unacceptable levels, but theyÂ’ve come to epitomise it this season as they largely benefited from tight calls for the last few months to gain what IÂ’d call maybe the most unimpressive Premier League title wins of recent years. The irony being that, like that Leeds team from all of those years ago, they could have done equally well, or even better, if their manager had been prepared to realease the hand brake a bit.

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Fair enough Bob, i'm in no position to argue against what you're saying, as i only saw about 10 minuted of Arsenal when they played Aston Villa ( i think Arsenal lost) so i'm not in a position to debate what you and others have said. e

What i can do though is ask questions to you and others on how Arsenal play. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem convinced that Arteta and his tactics would regress even further with lesser players. Are you hinting at Warnock ball, the stuff of 11 men behind the ball,22% possession, players hacking the ball anywhere, an isolated striker visibly looking like the life is draining away from him after having to chase the ball while coming up against a bank of defenders? Because you're not particularly specific about it, and i'm quite interested to know what you and others think. Are we talking Mad Mick, Pullis, or something in between?

This isn't meant in a sarcastic way at all, but you probably understand why i ask these questions because without checking, haven't Arsenal finished runner up twice and champions of the premier league one,won the champions league , league table thingy, got incredibly close to winning the thing, and i'm sure they've won a league cup or FA cup in that time as well.

So if you lay all that evidence down to a football fan who has never watched Arsenal over the past three or four seasons, then you can see why i'm asking people to elaborate on what they mean. Because from the outside looking in, i couldn't conceive why anyone would say that Arsenal are crap (although you haven't said that)

For Arsenal to have achieved what they have done. then they can't be this negative side that everyone talks of, it just can't be possible, right? and could you sort of understand why i would think that? There must be some beauty, excellence, brilliance,awareness, urgency, belief,ability, individualism in what they do, otherwise they're riding the longest ever football phoney train and the other teams just can'y work them out. :thumbup:

Arsenal tactics for next season have been leaked!

https://i.postimg.cc/B6zYyWT0/Arsenal-26-27.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Arsenal tactics for next season have been leaked!

https://i.postimg.cc/B6zYyWT0/Arsenal-26-27.jpg

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You're a proponent of the beautiful game, can you quantify how Arsenal have enjoyed such relative success at the highest level while playing the way they do?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Fair enough Bob, i'm in no position to argue against what you're saying, as i only saw about 10 minuted of Arsenal when they played Aston Villa ( i think Arsenal lost) so i'm not in a position to debate what you and others have said. e

What i can do though is ask questions to you and others on how Arsenal play. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem convinced that Arteta and his tactics would regress even further with lesser players. Are you hinting at Warnock ball, the stuff of 11 men behind the ball,22% possession, players hacking the ball anywhere, an isolated striker visibly looking like the life is draining away from him after having to chase the ball while coming up against a bank of defenders? Because you're not particularly specific about it, and i'm quite interested to know what you and others think. Are we talking Mad Mick, Pullis, or something in between?

This isn't meant in a sarcastic way at all, but you probably understand why i ask these questions because without checking, haven't Arsenal finished runner up twice and champions of the premier league one,won the champions league , league table thingy, got incredibly close to winning the thing, and i'm sure they've won a league cup or FA cup in that time as well.

So if you lay all that evidence down to a football fan who has never watched Arsenal over the past three or four seasons, then you can see why i'm asking people to elaborate on what they mean. Because from the outside looking in, i couldn't conceive why anyone would say that Arsenal are crap (although you haven't said that)

For Arsenal to have achieved what they have done. then they can't be this negative side that everyone talks of, it just can't be possible, right? and could you sort of understand why i would think that? There must be some beauty, excellence, brilliance,awareness, urgency, belief,ability, individualism in what they do, otherwise they're riding the longest ever football phoney train and the other teams just can'y work them out. :thumbup:

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I saw little difference between Arsenal on Saturday and a Warnock side. As I’ve said, they don’t usually play like that - clearly they’re not in the habit of having 20 odd per cent possession and i don’t believe they’re a squad built to play that way. Maybe the plan was to have so little possession, after allLincoln won our division with the lowest possession percentage of any of the 24 sides’

Gaving spent all, of my life thinking teams go out hoping to have as much of the ball as possible,I finally have to accept that there are quite a few teams out there that don’t want to have the ball. How depressing is that? Anyway, I don’t believe Arsenal are built to play in such a way as they’ve too many talented individuals, most of them with a good team ethic, to sell themselves short like that.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I saw little difference between Arsenal on Saturday and a Warnock side. As IÂ’ve said, they donÂ’t usually play like that - clearly theyÂ’re not in the habit of having 20 odd per cent possession and i donÂ’t believe theyÂ’re a squad built to play that way. Maybe the plan was to have so little possession, after allLincoln won our division with the lowest possession percentage of any of the 24 sidesÂ’

Gaving spent all, of my life thinking teams go out hoping to have as much of the ball as possible,I finally have to accept that there are quite a few teams out there that donÂ’t want to have the ball. How depressing is that? Anyway, I donÂ’t believe Arsenal are built to play in such a way as theyÂ’ve too many talented individuals, most of them with a good team ethic, to sell themselves short like that.

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Cheers Bob, so you're alluding to the PSG game more than in the general sense of things? The comparison to a Warnock outfit threw me, but i will respect your opinion as i can't counter it in any way. How did you used to feel during and after a game under Warnock, when we would pinch a goal and then build a wall on the 18 yard line for however long was left in the game, sometimes most of it. I can remember being quite critical of some of our displays under Warnock during that promotion season. I think that i said that i thought it was desperate, short term football, and i would walk away from games like that mentally exhausted before i even considering elation. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Disagree with you there about Arteta getting his tactics spot on. I don’t like the way Arteta sets out his team to play, but trying to leave that aside for now, i couldn’t understand why they played so many long balls, why Raya knocked it long almost every time he had possession and why they had the keeper taking free kicks about fifty yards from their own goal. Arsenal don’t usually play like that and, from what I could see, PSG weren’t inconvenienced by it in the slightest as the ball just kept on coming back at Arsenal - it was as if they did not want the ball. That’s understandable i suppose for many teams that play PSG, but I think Arsenal have enough good players to have got their possession figures up around the 40/45 per cent mark which would have alleviated some of the pressure they were under.

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Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes Arsenal can play better football than that but it they had been less defensive, PSG would have opened them up quite easily. As it turned out, they struggled to breach Arsenal's defence and Raya had very little to do. Arsenal do have good players but in midfield and attack PSG have world class players in every position and I've yet to see a team cope with their attacking brilliance.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

You're a proponent of the beautiful game, can you quantify how Arsenal have enjoyed such relative success at the highest level while playing the way they do?

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Arsenal GA 27 in 38 games.

Regarding the beautiful game, you'd have to go back to when Enrique first arrived at PSG and Neymar & Messi were on their way out the door. Also famously, he tried to talk Mbappe into being a team player, but the superstar was having none of that. That's when I started to pay attention to PSG as it was turning into an interesting situation, and Enrique himself was living at the PSG training ground!

Then Kvaratskhelia arrived during the second half of the season, and he was a player I knew well after seeing him play against Ampadu in 2022. He tore poor old Ethan to shreds, so I started watching some Napoli games as this fella was unbelievable. I like seeing different teams play but I never expected PSG and Enrique to be as dominant as they are, so it was great to watch it all unfold.

I've also been watching Como for a couple of seasons due to the Osian Roberts connection and Fabregas is a very good manager. Now if only Arsenal could get hold of him we might see a team that everybody enjoys watching ...

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Arsenal GA 27 in 38 games.

Regarding the beautiful game, you'd have to go back to when Enrique first arrived at PSG and Neymar & Messi were on their way out the door. Also famously, he tried to talk Mbappe into being a team player, but the superstar was having none of that. That's when I started to pay attention to PSG as it was turning into an interesting situation, and Enrique himself was living at the PSG training ground!

Then Kvaratskhelia arrived during the second half of the season, and he was a player I knew well after seeing him play against Ampadu in 2022. He tore poor old Ethan to shreds, so I started watching some Napoli games as this fella was unbelievable. I like seeing different teams play but I never expected PSG and Enrique to be as dominant as they are, so it was great to watch it all unfold.

I've also been watching Como for a couple of seasons due to the Osian Roberts connection and Fabregas is a very good manager. Now if only Arsenal could get hold of him we might see a team that everybody enjoys watching ...

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Fair enough, thanks for the reply. So what you're saying is that PSG have prospered because they're more of a team unit, superstars without the ego so to speak? I will take your word on it, although people have said how good PSG are now. I did ask you about Arsenal though, what's your opinion on the success they have had over the past few years, or the resurgence so to speak. They must surely have very good players, although if Arteta opened up a bit in terms of play, do you think that they would be where they are?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. So what you're saying is that PSG have prospered because they're more of a team unit, superstars without the ego so to speak? I will take your word on it, although people have said how good PSG are now. I did ask you about Arsenal though, what's your opinion on the success they have had over the past few years, or the resurgence so to speak. They must surely have very good players, although if Arteta opened up a bit in terms of play, do you think that they would be where they are?

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They are where they are because of their defensive record, so why change it? Besides that, they also seem a bit reluctant to go head-to-head against the footballing purists. It would probably take a different manager to get them playing eye-catching football, but who knows maybe he will surprise us next season?

^^^^ Or to put it another way, how do they improve on this season? That's the big question.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

They are where they are because of their defensive record, so why change it? Besides that, they also seem a bit reluctant to go head-to-head against the footballing purists. It would probably take a different manager to get them playing eye-catching football, but who knows maybe he will surprise us next season?

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They were 2nd highest goalscorers in the Premier league behind Man City, i would have thought that would have something to do with it as well.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

They were 2nd highest goalscorers in the Premier league behind Man City, i would have thought that would have something to do with it as well.

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They got 31 points from league games where they scored 1 goal or less.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

They got 31 points from league games where they scored 1 goal or less.

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Man City got 15 points by my quick calculations when they scored 1 or 0 goals, so Arsenal's defensive prowess gained them 16 points over Man City.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

They were 2nd highest goalscorers in the Premier league behind Man City, i would have thought that would have something to do with it as well.

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ToBW has had a bee in his bonnet about the Premier league all season, and Wales-Bales can’t seem to work out if it’s Boxing day or pancake Tuesday.
You’d be better asking a few of the girls who work in your local ASDA for their opinions on Arsenal and Arteta’s style of play.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

ToBW has had a bee in his bonnet about the Premier league all season, and Wales-Bales can’t seem to work out if it’s Boxing day or pancake Tuesday.
You’d be better asking a few of the girls who work in your local ASDA for their opinions on Arsenal and Arteta’s style of play.

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You'd need an advanced degree in statistics to find any beauty in the way Arsenal play!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

They got 31 points from league games where they scored 1 goal or less.

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That's impressive in my opinion. Thing is, people seem to be talking this up as Arsenal just stopping teams from playing. That may well have been the tactic against PSG, but it can't be the tactic for the who;e season. Teams still need to have quality in and out of possession to do what they have this season, yet it comes across as they're a team full of robbie savage type players. People may not like something, it may go against how they think things should be done, but there has to be some credit thrown Asenals way. I fairness you did say that they're good at what they do. I can't stop. i;m watching re runs of Greece games from the 2004 Euro's........ :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Man City got 15 points by my quick calculations when they scored 1 or 0 goals, so Arsenal's defensive prowess gained them 16 points over Man City.

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Correction: Arsenal actually got 29 points from low scoring games, so it's an advantage of 14 points over Man City.

Arsenal: 29
Sunderland: 23
Fulham: 21
Bournemouth: 20
Leeds United: 19
Liverpool: 19
Crystal Palace: 18
Aston Villa: 16
Everton: 16
Manchester City: 15
Manchester United: 15
Tottenham Hotspur: 14
Brentford: 13
Nottingham Forest: 12
Brighton & Hove Albion: 11
Newcastle United: 11
West Ham United: 10
Chelsea: 9
Wolverhampton Wanderers: 9
Burnley: 7

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

That's impressive in my opinion. Thing is, people seem to be talking this up as Arsenal just stopping teams from playing. That may well have been the tactic against PSG, but it can't be the tactic for the who;e season. Teams still need to have quality in and out of possession to do what they have this season, yet it comes across as they're a team full of robbie savage type players. People may not like something, it may go against how they think things should be done, but there has to be some credit thrown Asenals way. I fairness you did say that they're good at what they do. I can't stop. i;m watching re runs of Greece games from the 2004 Euro's........ :thumbup:

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It's an interesting stat because Leeds and Sunderland stayed up while Burnley, Wolves and West Ham went down. Chelsea also missed out on Europe, so gaining points from low scoring games is quite important in the grand scheme of things.

They restricted us to just the Ferguson goal, it was enough though.