Justice for George Floyd petition

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It isn't him speaking on fox news that makes me disagree with him, it's what is coming out of his mouth. Do you honestly watch that and think he speaks sense?

I don't know who Thomas Sowell is.

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I do think he speaks sense on a number of things and he has “lived in experience” of segregation growing up in Chicago in that time period.

I have posted a few times in this thread about the complexities of systemic racism in America.

I’m not sure what the answers are...
But I do believe though that some uncomfortable grown up discussions need to be had in order to make things better, rather than a pure repainting of history, white guilt and affirmative action.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

My opinion of Sowell is that hes a very intelligent man

But I totally disagree with him

Hes a right wing libertarian free market capitalist

And he doesnt believe in gun control

That's all I need to know

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Quelle Surprise 😆.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So now you are taking it upon yourself to speak on behalf of other people? Let them speak for themselves bro, even if they don't all agree about the same things. It's not your debate, so stop telling people what's good for them, you sound just like the Democratic Party does.

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Racism is every bodies business

Now a white guy cannot imagine what it is like to walk into a bar of white people and be racially abused but a white guy can say that is wrong and protest about racism and if a white guy walks into a bar and is racially abused then black people can say that is wrong and protest against it

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I do think he speaks sense on a number of things and he has “lived in experience” of segregation growing up in Chicago in that time period.

I have posted a few times in this thread about the complexities of systemic racism in America.

I’m not sure what the answers are...
But I do believe though that some uncomfortable grown up discussions need to be had in order to make things better, rather than a pure repainting of history, white guilt and affirmative action.

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I'm not sure what the answers are either, as you said it's a complex issue.

As I said he comes across and intelligent man but I think he also comes across as being a bit out of touch when he says racism doesn't exist. I don't think he says that out of stupidity orignorance. Maybe he genuinely believes that's the case or maybe he has an agenda.

I've listened to a few podcasts this week, the one that stood out was black sportmen talking about growing up. All 3 of them came from households that weren't poor but still had lots of instances of racism to talk about and still encountered it to this day so it isn't just an economic issue either.

When an issue like this comes up it's important to listen to other sides of the story. Unfortunately you have to try and avoid places like fox news who have an obvious agenda. Listen to stuff put out by real people through their own mediums. Of course everyone has their biases etc but when they aren't directly tied to political sides like the guy being interviewed by fox is, it's much easier to take them at face value.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

Quelle Surprise 😆.

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Do you agree with him ?

Are you a right wing libertarian free market capitalist ?

Are you against gun control ?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I'm not sure what the answers are either, as you said it's a complex issue.

As I said he comes across and intelligent man but I think he also comes across as being a bit out of touch when he says racism doesn't exist. I don't think he says that out of stupidity orignorance. Maybe he genuinely believes that's the case or maybe he has an agenda.

I've listened to a few podcasts this week, the one that stood out was black sportmen talking about growing up. All 3 of them came from households that weren't poor but still had lots of instances of racism to talk about and still encountered it to this day so it isn't just an economic issue either.

When an issue like this comes up it's important to listen to other sides of the story. Unfortunately you have to try and avoid places like fox news who have an obvious agenda. Listen to stuff put out by real people through their own mediums. Of course everyone has their biases etc but when they aren't directly tied to political sides like the guy being interviewed by fox is, it's much easier to take them at face value.

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I certainly don’t agree with him when he says racism doesn’t exist.
I also don’t agree with the racial slurs spouted about his level of blackness by some because of his opinions.

Speaking with African American friends of mine in the immediate aftermath of this shameful tragedy was heartbreaking, like really heartbreaking.

Reactions ranged from “I’m scared for my family” to “I served my country, I love my country, but this won’t stop until White Cops are getting killed”, with a few others pissed of at the hijaking of the protests by opportunists.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I certainly don’t agree with him when he says racism doesn’t exist.
I also don’t agree with the racial slurs spouted about his level of blackness by some because of his opinions.

Speaking with African American friends of mine in the immediate aftermath of this shameful tragedy was heartbreaking, like really heartbreaking.

Reactions ranged from “I’m scared for my family” to “I served my country, I love my country, but this won’t stop until White Cops are getting killed”, with a few others pissed of at the hijaking of the protests by opportunists.

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:thumbup: sounds very similar to the reactions I heard/read. The biggest thing that came across in both is when do you bring up to your child about racism if you're black as it's quite likely they'll encounter it sooner rather than later. All of the guys interviewed could vividly remember the first time they were called the N word and were still upset about it 20odd years later.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Do you agree with him ?

Are you a right wing libertarian free market capitalist ?

Are you against gun control ?

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I agree with him a lot, particularly on race.

You hope that I am a “Right Wing, Libertarian, Free Market Capitalist” do you can include me in your Ad Hominem attacks.
Sadly for you in this instance I do not fit into that particular pigeon hole.

As for guns, I would ban Semi Automatics and also make ammunition more expensive.
I don’t like guns, but for the first time since I’ve been here....I’m sadly thinking of getting one.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Racism is every bodies business

Now a white guy cannot imagine what it is like to walk into a bar of white people and be racially abused but a white guy can say that is wrong and protest about racism and if a white guy walks into a bar and is racially abused then black people can say that is wrong and protest against it

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Wasn't there signs up in some pub windows saying 'no Irish, no dogs' and 'no Irish need apply' ? on job adverts in the lifetime of people on this board, isn't white on white racism a thing ?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I agree with him a lot, particularly on race.

You hope that I am a “Right Wing, Libertarian, Free Market Capitalist” do you can include me in your Ad Hominem attacks.
Sadly for you in this instance I do not fit into that particular pigeon hole.

As for guns, I would ban Semi Automatics and also make ammunition more expensive.
I don’t like guns, but for the first time since I’ve been here....I’m sadly thinking of getting one.

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What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Wasn't there signs up in some pub windows saying 'no Irish, no dogs' and 'no Irish need apply' ? on job adverts in the lifetime of people on this board, isn't white on white racism a thing ?

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White on white racism? Depends what you mean.

There's definitely a lot of hate towards the traveller community (who are classed as their own ethnic group) by "white" people, but the discriminatory beliefs/actions against them isn't because of their skin colour - if that's where you were going with it.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Again similar to Steele, he denies the level of racism in The USA, but he is big on taking personal responsibility for the improvement of
Black People as opposed to “being bounded” for want of a better word, to victimhood.

He has some large papers online to have a look out...but a cursory search on “Thomas Sowell Quotes”, will return some right pearlers.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

White on white racism? Depends what you mean.

There's definitely a lot of hate towards the traveller community (who are classed as their own ethnic group) by "white" people, but the discriminatory beliefs/actions against them isn't because of their skin colour - if that's where you were going with it.

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You can still be discriminated against because of your ethnicity by other whites, without getting political wasn't that the issue in N Ireland when the troubles kicked off, indigenous types unable to get jobs, council houses, treated as second class citizens in their own country, gerrymandering so they couldn't get elected in large numbers etc etc.
As regards reverse racism wasn't Daley Thompson accused of racism against the Irish after making a joke live on air with the Beeb furiously having to apologise.

In N Ireland the most recent troubles spranf from the civil rights movement, who were demanding one man one vote. something we in Britain take for granted but which was alien to the political system there.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I agree with him a lot, particularly on race.

You hope that I am a “Right Wing, Libertarian, Free Market Capitalist” do you can include me in your Ad Hominem attacks.
Sadly for you in this instance I do not fit into that particular pigeon hole.

As for guns, I would ban Semi Automatics and also make ammunition more expensive.
I don’t like guns, but for the first time since I’ve been here....I’m sadly thinking of getting one.

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No I dont hope that you are a right wing libertarian free market capitalist but you seem to be agreeing with the views of a right wing libertarian free market capitalist a lot

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-seafront.html

I think a lot of the people who are protesting and counter protesting in the UK are driven by being bored stiff from being stuck at home.

It is the only plausible, respectable excuse they can think of for going out and mixing with people.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Wasn't there signs up in some pub windows saying 'no Irish, no dogs' and 'no Irish need apply' ? on job adverts in the lifetime of people on this board, isn't white on white racism a thing ?

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There was indeed a sign saying no irish , no dogs no blacks in London's notting hill in the post war era

I think that white on white discrimination does take place such as not wanting irish people in bed and breakfasts or more recently polish or eastern Europeans

But as irish people are the same race as polish people and white english people it isnt racism , its discrimination . Same thing though .

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Originally Posted by trampie09

You can still be discriminated against because of your ethnicity by other whites, without getting political wasn't that the issue in N Ireland when the troubles kicked off, indigenous types unable to get jobs, council houses, treated as second class citizens in their own country, gerrymandering so they couldn't get elected in large numbers etc etc.
As regards reverse racism wasn't Daley Thompson accused of racism against the Irish after making a joke live on air with the Beeb furiously having to apologise.

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But my point is that it would have nothing to do with the colour of your skin. You can find many reasons for white people discriminating against other white people (different backgrounds, religion, socio-economic status, politics etc), but skin colour isn't the cause of it. I don't see how it would be humanly possible for it to happen.

Your point seems to focus on white people can be c*nts to other white people at times, which nobody would argue against.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

In N Ireland the most recent troubles spranf from the civil rights movement, who were demanding one man one vote. something we in Britain take for granted but which was alien to the political system there.

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We are officially the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the same country, yet they had gerrymandering against the people that identified as Irish over there, I don't know if it's still the same or not the way they divide the wards and constituencies up these days as they used to stack the cards in favour of the rulers.
The whole shebang seemed like pure racism, but in this case white against white racism.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

Again similar to Steele, he denies the level of racism in The USA, but he is big on taking personal responsibility for the improvement of
Black People as opposed to “being bounded” for want of a better word, to victimhood.

He has some large papers online to have a look out...but a cursory search on “Thomas Sowell Quotes”, will return some right pearlers.

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What sort of area do you live in ?

Do your African American friends live in poor crime ridden ghettos ?

Have you told your african american friends that they should not be bounded by their past as steele etc believe and that positive discrimination is wrong ?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

No I dont hope that you are a right wing libertarian free market capitalist but you seem to be agreeing with the views of a right wing libertarian free market capitalist a lot

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I think being able to pick and choose certain factors from different political and philosophical ideologies is a good thing.

Certainly better than being blinkered and ignorant and instantly dismissive of all other outlooks.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-seafront.html

I think a lot of the people who are protesting and counter protesting in the UK are driven by being bored stiff from being stuck at home.

It is the only plausible, respectable excuse they can think of for going out and mixing with people.

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You think that , how about a lot of people who have protested are very passionate and believe in the cause ?

How about they dont need an excuse ? They are pissed off and it's got nothing to do with the pandemic

After all if the governments adviser can piss off around the country , if people can get drunk and have house parties and mix , why cant they ?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I think being able to pick and choose certain factors from different political and philosophical ideologies is a good thing.

Certainly better than being blinkered and ignorant and instantly dismissive of all other outlooks.

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So , given what you have offered , you agree with a lot of views of two right wing libertarian conservatives on race and you dont agree with strict gun control ?

I am not so sure I am seeing that as a good thing but you live in a free country although it's more free for some than others

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

What sort of area do you live in ?

Do your African American friends live in poor crime ridden ghettos ?

Have you told your african american friends that they should not be bounded by their past as steele etc believe and that positive discrimination is wrong ?

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Wow...lol.

I live in a nice neighborhood.
My African American friends come from many different backgrounds...you know like White People do!!

I’m not as much of a gobshite as you and wouldn’t think of espousing my opinions of what they should or shouldn’t do to them.
I have listened though when on occasions the subject has been brought up

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Originally Posted by trampie09

We are officially the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the same country, yet they had gerrymandering against the people that identified as Irish over there, I don't know if it's still the same or not the way they divide the wards and constituencies up these days as they used to stack the cards in favour of the rulers.
The whole shebang seemed like pure racism, but in this case white against white racism.

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It wasnt race though , it was the persecution of catholics in northern Ireland by the protestant ruling class and discrimination in jobs , housing etc . It wasnt because the northern irish catholics had a different skin colour than the protestants . It was discrimination based on religion . Still discrimination though .

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

Wow...lol.

I live in a nice neighborhood.
My African American friends come from many different backgrounds...you know like White People do!!

I’m not as much of a gobshite as you and wouldn’t think of espousing my opinions of what they should or shouldn’t do to them.
I have listened though when on occasions the subject has been brought up

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Well if you think that your african american friends should throw their chains off , forget about positive discrimination ........sowells view which you agree with , if they are your mates why havnt you discussed it with them ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It wasnt race though , it was the persecution of catholics in northern Ireland by the protestant ruling class and discrimination in jobs , housing etc . It wasnt because the northern irish catholics had a different skin colour than the protestants . It was discrimination based on religion . Still discrimination though .

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It's race alright they won't even let them have their own language, that's why there was no Irish Parliament for so long.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So , given what you have offered , you agree with a lot of views of two right wing libertarian conservatives on race and you dont agree with strict gun control ?

I am not so sure I am seeing that as a good thing but you live in a free country although it's more free for some than others

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I also fervently disagree with the Health Care System here.
I am against the banking system.
I believe that Men and Woman are equal.
I believe that people of all races are equal.
I believe in good pay and benefits for working people.
I would prefer companies to remain private and not floated.
I hate the oil industry.
I hate K Street lobbyists.
I am Pro Gay Marriage.
I am Pro Abortion.
I believe in a strong but fair welfare system that shouldn’t be abused.

Does that sound Right Wing to you?

As for gun control, did you not read the part where I said certain weapons should be banned?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well if you think that your african american friends should throw their chains off , forget about positive discrimination ........sowells view which you agree with , if they are your mates why havnt you discussed it with them ?

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I am not an African American and it isn’t my place to tell anyone what they should do, let alone an African American on such a sensitive issue.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I am not an African American and it isn’t my place to tell anyone what they should do, let alone an African American on such a sensitive issue.

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What are their opinions then?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I also fervently disagree with the Health Care System here.
I am against the banking system.
I believe that Men and Woman are equal.
I believe that people of all races are equal.
I believe in good pay and benefits for working people.
I would prefer companies to remain private and not floated.
I hate the oil industry.
I hate K Street lobbyists.
I am Pro Gay Marriage.
I am Pro Abortion.
I believe in a strong but fair welfare system that shouldn’t be abused.

Does that sound Right Wing to you?

As for gun control, did you not read the part where I said certain weapons should be banned?

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Yes I read all that but you still think that black people should throw off their past , you dont agree with positive discrimination and you are thinking of buying a gun

That doesnt add up

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Originally Posted by trampie09

It's race alright they won't even let them have their own language, that's why there was no Irish Parliament for so long.

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All sorts of different definitions have been flying around for decades when it comes to race equality - and they crop up on this board all the time from people who claim there is no such thing as islamophobia ('cos that's a religion not a race) or anti-semitism (because all the people of the middle east are semites) - where is Organ Morgan by the way?

But the UK Equality Act 2010 is the best shared point of reference - and the basis of most community and workplace education and training in the past 10 years.

The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because of your race.

In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...%20nationality.

For all practical purposes members of different nationalities (Irish, Poles) or ethnicities (Travellers - if not covered by nationality) have the same characteristics and protections as members of different races.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I am not an African American and it isn’t my place to tell anyone what they should do, let alone an African American on such a sensitive issue.

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You said you agree with the right wing conservative sowell a lot .....particularly on race

So do any of your african american friends ever bring up sowell in conversation ? What do they think ? If any of them agree with his right wing views do you discuss it with them ? Have you ever discussed sowell and his views on race , which you share , with your other african American friends ? What did they say ?

Interesting stuff Jon.

I wonder if Churchill (or Hitler) thought the Welsh were cleverer than the English ?, considering Churchill (and Hitler) was big into eugenics and all that.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Yes I read all that but you still think that black people should throw off their past , you dont agree with positive discrimination and you are thinking of buying a gun

That doesnt add up

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First off, I am specifically discussing African Americans here, not Black People from other parts of the world.

Secondly, I said I agree with a view from an African American intellectual that personal responsibility is important and that the shackles of victimhood should be broken.
Nothing to do with throwing off their past.

Do you believe that African Americans should live in perpetual victimhood?

With the potential defunding of Police Forces and the ensuing anarchy that would ensue do you blame me for wanting protection?
I predict things are going to get bleak, that’s why I’m contemplating it, not for vanity or for kicks.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

What are their opinions then?

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As you can imagine it varies.
One size does not fit all.

What do you mean by

“ personal responsibility is important and that the shackles of victimhood should be broken.”

Can you give some examples of this?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What does he say about race that you agree with him on?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

What do you mean by

“ personal responsibility is important and that the shackles of victimhood should be broken.”

Can you give some examples of this?

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I’m sure if you look at the numerous videos of Thomas Sowell dating back to the 1970’s he will be able to offer far more eloquent examples than I.

That is unless you are cross examining me?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I’m sure if you look at the numerous videos of Thomas Sowell dating back to the 1970’s he will be able to offer far more eloquent examples than I.

That is unless you are cross examining me?

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Well it's your opinion you're presenting so just wondering what makes you hold it.